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Why the BB vs Brady argument is unfair

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Dec 6th

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slash83

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It’s been a stupid argument to begin with that’s gone on way too long. Shut up and be thankful we had the best QB/HC duo for a span of twenty years and leave it at that.
 

Nehalem

In the Starting Line-Up
That was ultimately on Bill though. He had several chances to craft an extension to keep Brady here until 45. I think Brady mentioned playing until that age a couple of times. Maybe 1-2. But Bill didn’t want to go that route. Even still, Brady probably would have stayed even though the team dicked around with him had the GM drafted a bit better. Hell, even changing two picks could have been enough to do it - AJ Brown over N’Keal Harry and DK Metcalf over JJ Williams.

A couple of years ago, Bill said he had gotten to the point of only wanting to coach the guys that he likes to coach. What a wonderful concept. I’m a project manager for a living. I would love to only manage the constituents that I like to manage. There have been a few of them over the years who I liked on a personal level. I got the sense that I would have loved to grab a beer with them if they hadn’t reported to me. Unfortunately, they were not very good at their jobs and, after ultimately not meeting steps on their action plans, they either had to be reassigned or fired. Harry and Williams may have nailed their Foxboro interviews but, unfortunately, neither has been very good at the game of football (to date). And those are just two picks among a slew of them since 2013, when Reese departed.
Honestly all you need is AJ(better with no knees) Brown over Harry.

AJ Brown, Jakobi "Why was I sitting on the bench for 5 games" Meyers, and Edelman would be a pretty nice WR corps.

Better to use the 2nd rounder on Irv Smith, so we have an actual TE.
 

NG Pats Fan

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Honestly all you need is AJ(better with no knees) Brown over Harry.

AJ Brown, Jakobi "Why was I sitting on the bench for 5 games" Meyers, and Edelman would be a pretty nice WR corps.

Better to use the 2nd rounder on Irv Smith, so we have an actual TE.
Chubb over Michel. if you’re going to scout the Georgia backfield. Choose the right one!

1500 yards + 15 TDs per year for Chubb
 

NG Pats Fan

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There's nothing "unfair" about this argument. Brady was the biggest reason for the team's success. And I love to point out the FACT that many coaches have suffered the separation of a franchise quarterback and many have not lost 5 more games the following season - in fact, guys like Dave Wannstedt, Wade Phillips, Mike Shanahan, and Chuck Pagano, to name a handfull, have had their teams back BACK in the playoffs the next year or the following year once their franchise quarterback retired or went to another team. So, if Coach Bill does not have this team back in the playoffs next season, he will have failed to do what guys like Dave Wannstedt and Wade Phillips did (back to back 11-5 seasons and playoff appearances immediately after the retirement of Dan Marino and back to back playoff appearances 1 year after the retirement of Jim Kelly).
This isn't a lifetime achievement contest - this is an apples to apples comparison. All teams (NE, MIA, BUF) lost franchise quarterbacks and 2 (so far) were coached well enough and had good enough talent to make the playoffs within ONE year of that franchise quarterback leaving...let's see if Coach Bill can do what these two coaches could do....

the problem isn’t Bill’s coaching, it’s his drafting. He passes on rebels with elite athleticism to draft marginally athletic Boy Scouts who will adhere to what he says. Its gotten worse as he has gotten older.
 

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There's nothing "unfair" about this argument. Brady was the biggest reason for the team's success. And I love to point out the FACT that many coaches have suffered the separation of a franchise quarterback and many have not lost 5 more games the following season - in fact, guys like Dave Wannstedt, Wade Phillips, Mike Shanahan, and Chuck Pagano, to name a handfull, have had their teams back BACK in the playoffs the next year or the following year once their franchise quarterback retired or went to another team. So, if Coach Bill does not have this team back in the playoffs next season, he will have failed to do what guys like Dave Wannstedt and Wade Phillips did (back to back 11-5 seasons and playoff appearances immediately after the retirement of Dan Marino and back to back playoff appearances 1 year after the retirement of Jim Kelly).
This isn't a lifetime achievement contest - this is an apples to apples comparison. All teams (NE, MIA, BUF) lost franchise quarterbacks and 2 (so far) were coached well enough and had good enough talent to make the playoffs within ONE year of that franchise quarterback leaving...let's see if Coach Bill can do what these two coaches could do....
Yeah. if he fails, we should hire wade phillips to right the ship in 2 yrs.
 

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The reason this whole debate exists is because BB isnt the media darling locally or nationally. So he doesnt have many people speaking for him . Had this been andy reid, Peter king will be waxing poetic daily. Its all about access.
 

ashley1992

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Yeah. if he fails, we should hire wade phillips to right the ship in 2 yrs.
That particular poster was the same person that called for Brady to retire last year and said he stinks, has a noodle arm and is done...He's the same poster that gets banned from every gdt for trolling.......I wouldn't pay any attention to his post.
 
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ashley1992

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Ok, how many new threads are going to appear with the BB vs TB theme? Isn't everyone tired of this conversation yet? lol
 

ashley1992

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A HOF QB will win you Super Bowls. The Vinny Testaverdes and Cam Newtons wont.
I think you have a better chance of winning a SB with a HOF qb, no doubt, but you don't have to be a hall of Famer to win a SB (Jim McMahon, Doug Williams, Phil Simms, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hosteltier etc.)
 

pazrul72

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Ok, how many new threads are going to appear with the BB vs TB theme? Isn't everyone tired of this conversation yet? lol
I will be tired of it when the same 3 posters stop acting like a 7-9 season is proof positive BB can’t draft, needs to step down as GM, and was carried by Brady, in the luckiest pick in NFL history,because Tom Brady is the be all end all of everything good that has happened in NE for 20 years.
 

Triumph

Hall of Fame Poster
I think you have a better chance of winning a SB with a HOF qb, no doubt, but you don't have to be a hall of Famer to win a SB (Jim McMahon, Doug Williams, Phil Simms, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hosteltier etc.)
McMahon was in 1985.

We're you even born yet?
 

ashley1992

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I will be tired of it when the same 3 posters stop acting like a 7-9 season is proof positive BB can’t draft, needs to step down as GM, and was carried by Brady, in the luckiest pick in NFL history,because Tom Brady is the be all end all of everything good that has happened in NE for 20 years.
In all fairness to those three posters, there were many posters last year saying that TB should retire, he was washed up, we need another qb etc...go back to the gdt of last year, comical!!!
 
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StrawHatPatriot

Practice Squad Player
I think its mostly an overcorrection to the popular narratives before:

  • Brady is a system QB
  • Belichick would have won rings with any top 10 QB
  • Brady would not be nearly as successful with any other coach
  • If Belichick would played with Peyton they'd have 10 rings
  • Belichick can put in any QB and win 10 games
Not to mention, any criticism of Belichick in the past was always weirdly condemned. It was only the Malcom Butler decision in the 2017 Eagles that made it acceptable to call him out.

And plus, let's not forget that last year that Brady was criticized A LOT for the teams performance ("Brady is washed", "it's Brady's fault N'Keal Harry sucked").

So the Brady Bill debate is a reaction to that.
 

pazrul72

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2019 Weekly Picks Winner
In all fairness to those three posters, there were many posters let year saying that TB should retire, he was washed up, we need another qb etc...go back to the gdt of last year, comical!!!
Last year I think it was fair to ask if it was age or injury and if Brady could get back to being Brady or if he would have nagging injuries every year? This year answers that question as YES! But it was not unreasonable to look at the state of the roster and say Brady or not, the offense was not going to be good. There are massive over reactions from both sides, bottom line is we were very lucky to have two GOATS for 20 years and until the BB is awful crowd comes back to reality this topic won’t die.
 

crawhammer

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
Alright, we all know the trendy storyline all season has been..........who will fair better "Brady vs Belichick"?
It's as if the outcome will finally decide the age old debate of who was the bigger contributor to the Pats success, Brady or Belichick?

It's as if Pats fans have to decide if they are Team Brady or Team Belichick and you must root for one and against the other. That is completely false. Let's be happy to root for both! I am purely in the camp of rooting for the Pats and Brady. If push came to shove and someone said, well, in the Brady vs BB debate do you at least favor one side over the other (even if very slightly)? Well, if push came to shove, I guess I would slightly be on the side that Brady was slightly more of a contributor to the team's success than BB BUT THEY WERE BOTH REALLY IMPORTANT!

Ok, so now that I've established that I would be more for Brady (even if slightly) in this age old debate, I still think the argument is VERY UNFAIR against BB.

1.) The trendy stat is now.....Brady has 2 playoff victories without BB, but BB only has 1 without Brady
This drives me nuts. Should we just not even consider the two Super Bowl titles that BB was a major factor with the Giants. Why does that conveniently get thrown out in the trash. The guy was friggin carried off the field by his team. So if there was any doubts about his contributions to the team, that should end it right there.

2.) Environment and culture...sure, Brady no longer has BB in his ear today, but Brady is still taking the experience and mentorship that BB provided with him to TB. So to some degree, Brady's success in TB is still attributable to BB. I mean, do we really think that all of the QBs the Browns selected over the years were complete garbage? NO, it was the environment and lack of guidance/leadership that I'm sure was the downfall for some. BB provided a positive culture for Brady that allowed him to succeed. Sure, it wasn't all BB. Tom deserves most of the credit ,but we can't overlook the fact that BB did play a role in his development.
bb thinks the two NYG SB's count, just refer to his boat for proof. WRONG! Those are in the Parcells column. I guess by your reasoning in your #2, we're giving Parcells partial credit for NE's 6 rings. After all, BP mentored lil' bill.

What you leave out of #1 is this thing called time. Brady's got 2 postseason wins in his first 2 postseason games without lil' bill. 8 full seasons already and lil' bill has only managed 1 trip to the postseason without Brady. The 1 win he managed came against Bledsoe who had a special gift for saving his absolute worst for the bigger moments of his career. The anti-Brady.

You're right about Brady's success in Tampa Bay being somewhat attributable to lil' bill. You just got the reason wrong. Brady's motivated to prove he can win without Belichick. Motivated to prove Belichick was wrong to treat him like a has-been. Wrong to spit in his face with an incentive laden contract like he's a rookie with something to prove.

Brady appears rejuvenated in Tampa Bay, away from Belichick, and with Arians who probably deserves a lot of credit for something. Putting his ego aside perhaps. Letting his players have a little personality. Getting out of the way. Wearing a spiffy cap.
 

lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I think you have a better chance of winning a SB with a HOF qb, no doubt, but you don't have to be a hall of Famer to win a SB (Jim McMahon, Doug Williams, Phil Simms, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hosteltier etc.)
Those guys were a long time ago the league changed. Even them, Rypien was an All Pro the year he won. Simms was an All Pro the year he won. I don't think that's a coincidence. The 85 years could have put you or I behind center and won that year.

This era you need a QB or you need a super defence and the only defence in the last 20 years to really do it so were the 00 Ravens and 15 Broncos.
 
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