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Why the BB vs Brady argument is unfair

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Dec 6th

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Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
That's a harsh take saying BB can not claim any credit for the NYG Super Bowls
It's garbage... prior to BB becoming his defensive coordinator Parcell's had a 500 record, not only with the Giants but the Pats as well.

Within one season of BB joining both teams they were in a Super Bowl.

I might also add that the Giants LB'ers coach when LT got drafted and who worked him out was none other than BB... so again, it's garbage.
 
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Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
I've heard throughout the years that they were going to switch to Brady either way. The injury to Bledsoe just sped up the process.

I don't know if that's true or not. It could have been said after the fact.
It's in Michael Holley's book Patriot Reign written back then.
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
That's it. Thanks. I couldn't remember.
He didn't like that Drew didn't make the check downs, short throws, move the chains and make the smart play.

This is also why BB wasn't afraid to trade Bledsoe, not only in the conference but in the same division, he knew he could get two wins a year.
 

lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
So what are we saying, Nick Foles discovered talent for the playoffs then it disappeared? All this talk about how football has changed dramatically is way overblown. The only thing that changed is the proclivity of the refs to throw little yellow flags. The ability to throw accurately hasn't changed. QB's today aren't better or more accurate than Dan Marino. He would put up astronomical stats today.

Eli Manning will make the HOF for one simple reason... two Super Bowl rings. Not because he was a dominant passer. Terry Bradshaw was nowhere near the best passer of his generation, he has four rings and is in the HOF. Wins are a "team" stat, no QB no matter how good can will a bad team to a Super Bowl... if so, provide a single example. I can provide numerous "average/good" QB's who won Super Bowls... nobody can provide a single example of an "average/good" team winning a Super Bowl.

If Nick Foles, Eli Manning, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer and others can do it... if Joe Gibbs can win three different Super Bowls with three different average journeyman QB's... then you don't need some magical mystical QB.

Kapernick, Rex Grossman, Jake Delhomme, Matt Hasselback, Rich Gannon all made it to the Super Bowl in the last 17 years

You need good QB play, the same way you need good OL, D and Special Teams... it's TEAM.
No what I am saying is that Foles is a weird QB who has atleast twice in his career put up stupid unreal numbers for a stretch of time. In 2013 Foles started 10 games (played 13) and put up a 119 passer rating, which is the 4th highest single season passer rating ever, his 9.1 average that year is also extremely high for a modern era QB. People thought he was going to be amazing just off that season.

So Foles has shown on multiple occassions, he can play for a stretch at a stupidly high level. It just so happened one of those times was in 3 game in the playoffs.

And I don't care who you are, you don't put up those numbers because your team carried you. Peyton Manning went to the playoffs for years with Harrison, Wayne, and at some points Edge. He never did that. And he's known for putting up stupid numbers.

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It's funny you bring up Marino. You are right. You know how I know you are right. He's still top 10 in yards and TD's. His stats already speak for themselves and compare to modern players.

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Here's your issue. Yeah you can win with Foles/Eli/Flacco. They are streaky QB's that can play at a high level in the playoffs. However here's the problem. They will only do that once or twice in their career. So you are marrying yourself to them for over a decade to hope you don't screw up the once or twice they can get on a hotstreak.

You can win with Dilfer or a washed Manning. But you can only do that with a defense that will be amazing one or two years and then won't be able to sustain itself. And you know how many times a defense like that is built on a team in the NFL? Like once or twice every decade out of 32 teams times 10 seasons. Good luck.

OR

You can do the responsible thing and look for a Brady/Manning/Brees/Rodgers/Ben/Wilson/Mahomes/Farve type who is going to get you in the playoffs most years and give you a shot consistently until the odds hopefully catch up with you because you have the consistency at the most important spot.

THAT is the model in this league. If you want to bet on a long shot and plan and build around a long shot, have fun
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
No what I am saying is that Foles is a weird QB who has atleast twice in his career put up stupid unreal numbers for a stretch of time. In 2013 Foles started 10 games (played 13) and put up a 119 passer rating, which is the 4th highest single season passer rating ever, his 9.1 average that year is also extremely high for a modern era QB. People thought he was going to be amazing just off that season.

So Foles has shown on multiple occassions, he can play for a stretch at a stupidly high level. It just so happened one of those times was in 3 game in the playoffs.

And I don't care who you are, you don't put up those numbers because your team carried you. Peyton Manning went to the playoffs for years with Harrison, Wayne, and at some points Edge. He never did that. And he's known for putting up stupid numbers.

-----

It's funny you bring up Marino. You are right. You know how I know you are right. He's still top 10 in yards and TD's. His stats already speak for themselves and compare to modern players.

-------

Here's your issue. Yeah you can win with Foles/Eli/Flacco. They are streaky QB's that can play at a high level in the playoffs. However here's the problem. They will only do that once or twice in their career. So you are marrying yourself to them for over a decade to hope you don't screw up the once or twice they can get on a hotstreak.

You can win with Dilfer or a washed Manning. But you can only do that with a defense that will be amazing one or two years and then won't be able to sustain itself. And you know how many times a defense like that is built on a team in the NFL? Like once or twice every decade out of 32 teams times 10 seasons. Good luck.

OR

You can do the responsible thing and look for a Brady/Manning/Brees/Rodgers/Ben/Wilson/Mahomes/Farve type who is going to get you in the playoffs most years and give you a shot consistently until the odds hopefully catch up with you because you have the consistency at the most important spot.

THAT is the model in this league. If you want to bet on a long shot and plan and build around a long shot, have fun
I won't argue that having an All Pro caliber QB is an advantage because that would be dumb, having an All Pro anything is better than not.

That being said great teams are consistently assembled by great coaches and team builders. Andy Reid has a huge hand in Mahomes, Reid had Alex Smith a viable MVP candidate before Reid realized his limitations, Reid made Michael Vick relatively economical for the only season of his career, Reid successfully got past Mahomes injury last year winning games with Matt Moore on the way to a championship.

I like the Joe Gibbs example best, he won three different Super Bowls with three different average journeyman QB's... one could argue Joe Theisman was slightly better than journeyman, but the other two certainly weren't. They won because the "hogs" offensive line was massive and the best in the league, their defense was spectacular and special teams were good on all three championship teams.

I can provide numerous examples of average QB's winning a Super Bowl, nobody can provide a single example of an average team winning one.

To me that's ^ the most direct example of football being a TEAM game.

Whenever Tom won rings they were always one of the most talented teams in the league. When he didn't, they weren't (very often due to injury), and that's true of every championship QB ever.
 
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Ice_Ice_Brady

Antonio Brown’s New Live-In Chef
PatsFans.com Supporter
Three years ago when Nick Foles won over Tom Brady the two other QB's in the conference championship games were Case Keenum and Blake Bortles... but of course those were good old days when they used pig's bladder for a ball and the forward pass had just been invented.

So disingenuous to mislead and exaggerate to prove a point. Of course you pick the three worst QBs of the last decade in the conference championship game and use the outlier 2017 season to make it seem like the outlier is the norm. Literally 37 out of these 40 (93%) were above average quarterbacks.

If your argument were sound, you wouldn’t need to reach like this.

Conference Championship QBs, 2011-2020

Tom Brady (10)
Aaron Rodgers (4)
Patrick Mahomes (3)
Peyton Manning (2)
Russell Wilson (2)
Matt Ryan (2)
Colin Kaepernick (2)
Joe Flacco (2)
Andrew Luck
Drew Brees
Josh Allen
Ryan Tannehill
Jimmy Garoppolo
Jared Goff
Ben Roethlisberger
Cam Newton
Carson Palmer
Eli Manning
Alex Smith
Blake Bortles
Nick Foles
Case Keenum
 
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Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
So disingenuous to mislead and exaggerate to prove a point. Of course you pick the three worst QBs of the last decade in the conference championship game and use the outlier 2017 season to make it seem like the outlier is the norm. Literally 37 out of these 40 (93%) were above average quarterbacks.

Conference Championship QBs, 2011-2020

Tom Brady (10)
Aaron Rodgers (4)
Patrick Mahomes (3)
Peyton Manning (2)
Russell Wilson (2)
Matt Ryan (2)
Colin Kaepernick (2)
Joe Flacco (2)
Andrew Luck
Drew Brees
Josh Allen
Ryan Tannehill
Jimmy Garoppolo
Jared Goff
Ben Roethlisberger
Cam Newton
Carson Palmer
Eli Manning
Alex Smith
Blake Bortles
Nick Foles
Case Keenum
Newsflash... good teams and good team builders find good players. That's why they win.

I could provide you a list of all the left tackles in the conference championship games and I'll bet there's a lot of Pro Bowlers in there also.

If Eli Manning can do it twice and Marino can't do it once... then "talent" at QB alone won't get you there.

Andrew Luck is retired because his offensive line his entire career was an abomination.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Antonio Brown’s New Live-In Chef
PatsFans.com Supporter
Newsflash... good teams and good team builders find good players. That's why they win.

I could provide you a list of all the left tackles in the conference championship games and I'll bet there's a lot of Pro Bowlers in there also.

If Eli Manning can do it twice and Marino can't do it once... then "talent" at QB alone won't get you there.

Andrew Luck is retired because his offensive line his entire career was an abomination.

Lol...please, do provide that list of left tackles. Your arguments are so airtight, I’m sure you’re not just making a bunch of absurd, contradictory, desperate arguments to avoid conceding a point. Do send that list, though.
 

lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I won't argue that having an All Pro caliber QB is an advantage because that would be dumb, having an All Pro anything is better than not.

That being said great teams are consistently assembled by great coaches and team builders. Andy Reid has a huge hand in Mahomes, Reid had Alex Smith a viable MVP candidate before Reid realized his limitations, Reid successfully got past Mahomes injury last year winning games with Matt Moore on the way to a championship.

I like the Joe Gibbs example best, he won three different Super Bowls with three different average journeyman QB's... one could argue Joe Theisman was slightly better than journeyman, but the other two certainly weren't. They won because the "hogs" offensive line was massive and the best in the league, their defense was spectacular and special teams were good on all three teams.

I can provide numerous examples of average QB's winning a Super Bowl, nobody can provide a single example of an average team winning one.

To me that's the most direct example of football being a TEAM game, whenever Tom won rings they were always one of the most talented teams in the league. When he didn't they weren't, that's true of every QB ever.
Gibbs did that from 82 to 91. It's a completely different era.
 

jmt57

Moderator
Staff member
Since this thread has evolved into another Brady v Belichick court case rather than the original hypothesis, I am going to lock this thread.

Have at it in the other thread, where nobody will change anybody else's mind.


Free agency cannot come soon enough to give us something else to discuss.
 
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