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Why the BB vs Brady argument is unfair

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Sep 12th

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crawhammer

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
I think its mostly an overcorrection to the popular narratives before:

  • Brady is a system QB
  • Belichick would have won rings with any top 10 QB
  • Brady would not be nearly as successful with any other coach
  • If Belichick would played with Peyton they'd have 10 rings
  • Belichick can put in any QB and win 10 games
Not to mention, any criticism of Belichick in the past was always weirdly condemned. It was only the Malcom Butler decision in the 2017 Eagles that made it acceptable to call him out.

And plus, let's not forget that last year that Brady was criticized A LOT for the teams performance ("Brady is washed", "it's Brady's fault N'Keal Harry sucked").

So the Brady Bill debate is a reaction to that.
Did people really say all of those things? 10 rings with Peyton Manning? That's funny.

The notion of lil' bill winning with any quarterback is comical too, considering in 8 opportunities he's 0-8.

Brady's a system quarterback got crushed forever in 2007.

All the bluster from the doubters was Brady won't win with a slob like Arians. 'No risk it, no biscuit'... not gonna work. Wrong! It's working.

That said, the Brady vs Belichick debate started a loooooooooooooong time ago. It's just that now there's way more meat on the bone.

The defining moment however of the entire debate can be traced to SB 52... Brady was phenomenal and would have added a 7th ring and a 5th MVP. The team would have gone on to become the first team ever to win three in a row (now Tampa Bay will have to do it... well, probably not). But it didn't happen solely due to Belichick's benching of Malcolm Butler. That's at the heart of it.
 

StrawHatPatriot

Practice Squad Player
Did people really say all of those things? 10 rings with Peyton Manning? That's funny.

The notion of lil' bill winning with any quarterback is comical too, considering in 8 opportunities he's 0-8.

Brady's a system quarterback got crushed forever in 2007.

All the bluster from the doubters was Brady won't win with a slob like Arians. 'No risk it, no biscuit'... not gonna work. Wrong! It's working.

That said, the Brady vs Belichick debate started a loooooooooooooong time ago. It's just that now there's way more meat on the bone.

The defining moment however of the entire debate can be traced to SB 52... Brady was phenomenal and would have added a 7th ring and a 5th MVP. The team would have gone on to become the first team ever to win three in a row (now Tampa Bay will have to do it... well, probably not). But it didn't happen solely due to Belichick's benching of Malcolm Butler. That's at the heart of it.

Yes, it actually is what they say. They'll deny it now but this was a VERY common sentiment up until literally like 1 month ago.

Now it's "Whatever, Brady has a stacked team". "The pats are rebuilding, so Belichick going 7-9 is actually more impressive that Brady who handpicked the Bucs" even though Bill hasn't drafted well the last 4 years and had some questionable coaching decisions in some games like week 8 against the Bills and Week 6 against the Broncos, and was overall outcoached thoroughly in games like against the Rams and the week 15 game against the Dolphins
 

lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
What you're seeing is the reaction to 20 years of "yeah, but he couldn't do it without Bill" narratives regarding Brady. Throughout the Patriots run you saw A LOT more people doubting Brady could reproduce his success elsewhere than Belichick. No one ever argued Bill's value to the dynasty, but there absolutely was a crazy sect that still believed Tom was carried. If you think Bill has it bad with the "it was all Brady" takes now you were probably asleep in 2008 and all the "11-5 with Cassel? Brady is meaningless" takes. People just can't accept that it took both the greatest HC and the greatest QB of all time combined to go on this run, but I'd say in general Brady's contributions have been diminished more than Bill's before this year.
Yup. The fact is that whoever the GOAT coach is, it's not nearly as sexy to fans as who the GOAT QB is. Brady got dogged his entire career until he had the 2014-present run as a system QB and some people still kept up with that nonsense. People were more invested that Joe Montana or Peyton Manning was the real GOAT and that Brady was supposedly some fraud who was propped up by a great system. I remember pre 2014 and you would here "Brady got bailed out by the Tuck Rule and the kicker and as soon as he had to be the star on the team, they couldn't win anymore". Then 2014 happened and people wanted to ignore Brady's amazing performance and say "Butler bailed him out". And even that far into his career you would hear "4-0 is better than 4-2".

There were always people who were convinced that Brady would either get exposed or show not nearly the same capability if he left Belichick. Belichick merely needed to take a 16-0 team and go 11-5 without Brady to basically give everyone the excuse they needed to dimish Brady. Quite frankly, you see a lot on here where it's not uncommon to have people try to make the argument that the discussion on Bill without Brady should begin and end with the 2008 season and that everything else has some sort of taint to it that makes it unfair to compare them.

So yeah, Brady left, Brady is back in an conference championship game, he had a 40 TD season, he's probably having the best statistical deep ball season ever, a team like the Bucs who were mediocre since 2002 all of a sudden is a contender. So now the argument that he was a product of Belichick is over because he proved he could do it without him. So now the pendulum has swung, because Brady proved his doubters wrong, and everyone is looking at Billand saying, "okay why can he succeed without you, but your entire career is very different depending on whether he was part of the team or not". Brady already ate **** on this debate for years. So now that energy is redirected to the other part of it.
 

StrawHatPatriot

Practice Squad Player
Those guys were a long time ago the league changed. Even them, Rypien was an All Pro the year he won. Simms was an All Pro the year he won. I don't think that's a coincidence. The 85 years could have put you or I behind center and won that year.

This era you need a QB or you need a super defence and the only defence in the last 20 years to really do it so were the 00 Ravens and 15 Broncos.

What about the 07 Giants? or 17 Eagles? Heck, the final four in 2017 only had 1 great Qb in it (Brady)
 

lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Did people really say all of those things? 10 rings with Peyton Manning? That's funny.

The notion of lil' bill winning with any quarterback is comical too, considering in 8 opportunities he's 0-8.

Brady's a system quarterback got crushed forever in 2007.

All the bluster from the doubters was Brady won't win with a slob like Arians. 'No risk it, no biscuit'... not gonna work. Wrong! It's working.

That said, the Brady vs Belichick debate started a loooooooooooooong time ago. It's just that now there's way more meat on the bone.

The defining moment however of the entire debate can be traced to SB 52... Brady was phenomenal and would have added a 7th ring and a 5th MVP. The team would have gone on to become the first team ever to win three in a row (now Tampa Bay will have to do it... well, probably not). But it didn't happen solely due to Belichick's benching of Malcolm Butler. That's at the heart of it.
Yes. Ther did. It was not an uncommon thing to see on other boards or reddit to read "Manning or Rodgers wins 10 rings with Belichick". When the Jimmy G debate came up, you heard reporters say thats sources in the Pats camp felt that Bill could win rings with any top QB so the question is whether Jimmy can be that.

Bill got a massive pass in that argument and was never nearly as often as Brady. In fact, after the first 3 rings Bill was pretty much universally accepted as a great coach and Brady was constantly given brass rings to grab.
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Those guys were a long time ago the league changed. Even them, Rypien was an All Pro the year he won. Simms was an All Pro the year he won. I don't think that's a coincidence. The 85 years could have put you or I behind center and won that year.

This era you need a QB or you need a super defence and the only defence in the last 20 years to really do it so were the 00 Ravens and 15 Broncos.
Three years ago when Nick Foles won over Tom Brady the two other QB's in the conference championship games were Case Keenum and Blake Bortles... but of course those were good old days when they used pig's bladder for a ball and the forward pass had just been invented.
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
And I've never in my life seen ^ such faux outrage over something fictional that doesn't exist like "Brady hate," this is like that "war on Christmas" or the time Dungeons & Dragons turned kids into satan worshippers.

Outside of Ryan Clark who really hates Tom Brady?

Nobody is the answer, at least not any Pat's fans.

A GOAT married to a billionaire underwear supermodel doesn't need your manufactured indignation... he'll be fine.
 

lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
What about the 07 Giants? or 17 Eagles? Heck, the final four in 2017 only had 1 great Qb in it (Brady)
17 Eagles had a QB who was playing out of his mind.

These were Foles playoff stats: 971 yards (323 per game), 72.6% completion, 9.2 average, 6TD's 1INT, 115.7 passer rating. He's was unreal.

Eli in 11 played incredible in the playoffs too. In 07 he wasn't as great but he played a strong playoff performance with 854 yards (213 per game), 61%, 7.2 average, 6TD's 1INT, and a 95 rating. So he was playings strong. Much better in 11 though. Eli is pretty streaky.
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
17 Eagles had a QB who was playing out of his mind.

These were Foles playoff stats: 971 yards (323 per game), 72.6% completion, 9.2 average, 6TD's 1INT, 115.7 passer rating. He's was unreal.

Eli in 11 played incredible in the playoffs too. In 07 he wasn't as great but he played a strong playoff performance with 854 yards (213 per game), 61%, 7.2 average, 6TD's 1INT, and a 95 rating. So he was playings strong. Much better in 11 though. Eli is pretty streaky.
Best offensive line in the NFL, great running backs and receiving weapons along with offensive genius Frank Reich at the helm calling plays... pretty much sums up that run.

But again proves you don't need superman at QB to win a ring if your TEAM is good enough, and even if you have superman at QB you won't win diddly without a great team around him.
 

lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Three years ago when Nick Foles won over Tom Brady the two other QB's in the conference championship games were Case Keenum and Blake Bortles... but of course those were good old days when they used pig's bladder for a ball and the forward pass had just been invented.
I just listed Nick Foles playoff stats but we can do it again.

971 yards (323 per game), 72.6% completion, 9.2 average, 6TD's 1INT, 115.7 passer rating. He's was unreal.

You know who never had a playoff statline like Nick Foles for any given run?

-Tom Brady who never broke a 110 rating in the playoffs, his highest completion percentage ever in a run was only 70.6% in 2007 on his best team ever and his highest average was 8.6.

-Peyton Manning

-Aaron Rodgers.

-Drew Brees (maybe the year he won he got very close)
 

StrawHatPatriot

Practice Squad Player
Best offensive line in the NFL, great running backs and receiving weapons along with offensive genius Frank Reich at the helm calling plays... pretty much sums up that run.

But again proves you don't need superman at QB to win a ring if your TEAM is good enough, and even if you have superman at QB you won't win diddly without a great team around him.

That's an indictment on Bill though, given his lack of success without Brady. I hate to crap on Belichick so much but Bledsoe, Testerverde, and Cam all had some of their worst season with Bill, and have all won playoff games without him.
 

ashley1992

Moderator
Staff member
PatsFans.com Supporter
Those guys were a long time ago the league changed. Even them, Rypien was an All Pro the year he won. Simms was an All Pro the year he won. I don't think that's a coincidence. The 85 years could have put you or I behind center and won that year.

This era you need a QB or you need a super defence and the only defence in the last 20 years to really do it so were the 00 Ravens and 15 Broncos.
You're giving me too much credit:)
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
I just listed Nick Foles playoff stats but we can do it again.

971 yards (323 per game), 72.6% completion, 9.2 average, 6TD's 1INT, 115.7 passer rating. He's was unreal.

You know who never had a playoff statline like Nick Foles for any given run?

-Tom Brady who never broke a 110 rating in the playoffs, his highest completion percentage ever in a run was only 70.6% in 2007 on his best team ever and his highest average was 8.6.

-Peyton Manning

-Aaron Rodgers.

-Drew Brees (maybe the year he won he got very close)
So what are we saying, Nick Foles discovered talent for the playoffs then it disappeared? All this talk about how football has changed dramatically is way overblown. The only thing that changed is the proclivity of the refs to throw little yellow flags. The ability to throw accurately hasn't changed. QB's today aren't better or more accurate than Dan Marino. He would put up astronomical stats today.

Eli Manning will make the HOF for one simple reason... two Super Bowl rings. Not because he was a dominant passer. Terry Bradshaw was nowhere near the best passer of his generation, he has four rings and is in the HOF. Wins are a "team" stat, no QB no matter how good can will a bad team to a Super Bowl... if so, provide a single example. I can provide numerous "average/good" QB's who won Super Bowls... nobody can provide a single example of an "average/good" team winning a Super Bowl.

If Nick Foles, Eli Manning, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer and others can do it... if Joe Gibbs can win three different Super Bowls with three different average journeyman QB's... then you don't need some magical mystical QB.

Kapernick, Rex Grossman, Jake Delhomme, Matt Hasselback, Rich Gannon all made it to the Super Bowl in the last 17 years

You need good QB play, the same way you need good OL, D and Special Teams... it's TEAM.
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
That's an indictment on Bill though, given his lack of success without Brady. I hate to crap on Belichick so much but Bledsoe, Testerverde, and Cam all had some of their worst season with Bill, and have all won playoff games without him.
Cam at 31 with two surgeries on his throwing shoulder is washed up, pretty sure that's not an indictment on Bill. Bill Belichick has a losing record in Cleveland without Vinny Testeverde, for the first year and a half he had a washed up Bernie Kosar being forced on him by the ownership and a fanbase that worshipped him.

It take 2-3 years to completely rebuild a franchise. That's why the "BB's record without Brady" argument is meritless and dumb... BB rebuilt two franchises. It takes time.

Jimmy Johnson - season one: 1-15 - season two: 7-9
Bill Walsh - season one: 2-14 - season two: 6-10
Chuck Noll - season one: 1-13 - season two: 5-9 - season three: 6-8
Tom Landry - season one: 0-11-1 - season two: 4-9-1 - season three: 5-8-1
Bill Parcells - season one: 3-12-1 - season two: 9-7

Did these guys suck ^, were they the result of a single player or QB?

It's a TEAM sport and teams take time, not always, but most of the time... especially total rebuilds.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
Bill can rebuild this team into a contender in the near term and I believe he will. The Bills went from the Rex Ryan era to where they’re at now in 3 years. No reason why Bill can’t do the same with his Patriots.
 

Palm Beach Pats Fan

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
2019 Weekly Picks Winner
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Outside of Ryan Clark who really hates Tom Brady?

Nobody is the answer
Plenty of polls have him as near the top in both the categories of most loved and most hated.

I live in south FL. Everyone here who's not a NE fan HATES him.
I am from Indiana. Everyone there HATES him.
My wife is from Texas. Everyone there HATES him.

When people tell lies over and over and over again, like in Deflategate, it has a lasting impact. People who were not already NE fans ignore their eyes and brains.
 

luuked

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
Yes, it actually is what they say. They'll deny it now but this was a VERY common sentiment up until literally like 1 month ago.

Now it's "Whatever, Brady has a stacked team".

I mean he went to a stacked team that is oozing with talent because they have been picking more often in the top 10 than not. I don't think there is anyone who thinks rationally that can actually refute that.

Of course because of garbage coaching and gameplanning he did less with more than he ever had here in NE. But they are where they needed to be for this season to be considered a success, so good on them.
 

brdmaverick

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
bb thinks the two NYG SB's count, just refer to his boat for proof. WRONG! Those are in the Parcells column. I guess by your reasoning in your #2, we're giving Parcells partial credit for NE's 6 rings. After all, BP mentored lil' bill.

What you leave out of #1 is this thing called time. Brady's got 2 postseason wins in his first 2 postseason games without lil' bill. 8 full seasons already and lil' bill has only managed 1 trip to the postseason without Brady. The 1 win he managed came against Bledsoe who had a special gift for saving his absolute worst for the bigger moments of his career. The anti-Brady.

You're right about Brady's success in Tampa Bay being somewhat attributable to lil' bill. You just got the reason wrong. Brady's motivated to prove he can win without Belichick. Motivated to prove Belichick was wrong to treat him like a has-been. Wrong to spit in his face with an incentive laden contract like he's a rookie with something to prove.

Brady appears rejuvenated in Tampa Bay, away from Belichick, and with Arians who probably deserves a lot of credit for something. Putting his ego aside perhaps. Letting his players have a little personality. Getting out of the way. Wearing a spiffy cap.
That's a harsh take saying BB can not claim any credit for the NYG Super Bowls
 

Wozzy

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Plenty of polls have him as near the top in both the categories of most loved and most hated.

I live in south FL. Everyone here who's not a NE fan HATES him.
I am from Indiana. Everyone there HATES him.
My wife is from Texas. Everyone there HATES him.

When people tell lies over and over and over again, like in Deflategate, it has a lasting impact. People who were not already NE fans ignore their eyes and brains.
The tears of our enemies sustain and nourish me... but this fanboy fiction that there's a faction of Patriot fans who hate or harbor resentment over Tom Brady is nonsense. We love Tom, though the wailing and crying about his leaving is making it hard to root for him.

There is no BB vs Belichick, after Brady left for Tampa these guys all hung out at Gronk's beach party in Miami. Players aren't fans, they realize it's a business and I'm sure BB explained how backlogged the Patriots cap situation was before Tom chose to leave.

It was the right thing for both parties and I'm sure they both realize it. BB is catching hell because he has to clean up the mess from going all in to win Tom's last six years while Tom can wear the shiny rings and enjoy playing on a superteam, but that's the nature of a player vs a coach/GM.

GM's aren't paid to make people like them or make the fans feel better, they're paid to make the tough decisions a fan couldn't or wouldn't. The moment a GM starts listening to the fans is the moment he'll find himself sitting on the unemployment line.
 

Tony2046

PatsFans.com Supporter
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2019 Weekly Picks Winner
In the same token if Bledsoe didn't get hurt we could have had a new coach in 2002.

I've heard throughout the years that they were going to switch to Brady either way. The injury to Bledsoe just sped up the process.

I don't know if that's true or not. It could have been said after the fact.
 
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