Why the BB vs Brady argument is unfair

[Biffins]

I disagree. Brady went to a irrelevant franchise with a loser mentality that was under 500 last year and hasn’t been on the playoffs for 13 years. He has them in the NFC title game. They do have talent at the skill positions but with Covid and reduced practice it’s pretty damn special what he’s been able to do. He instantly brought credibility and belief.

Belichick’s team was 12-4 last year. Yes they are starting to rebuild, but who’s at fault for the roster talent level?

I think Brady is himself a difference between 3-6 added wins, depending on the team.

5 wins probably.

 

[Biffins]

I also think it's unfair to compare them on this year alone so far. Brady got to hand pick a team that not only had a tremendous amount of talent already stocked (because they've been bad to mediocre for years), but that also likely gave him some assurances that they would be pushing to win now for the next few years at least. Signing Brown and Fournette and trading for Gronk, etc. Belichick meanwhile has the task of resetting the cap and rebuilding. I was hopeful they could be a playoff team this year, but looking objectively going into this season it seemed pretty obvious that Brady would have more success than Belichick in 2020.

Now, if Brady wins the Super Bowl this year or next (or both), and the Pats fail to return to relevance at all, it's 100% fair to start to question the ratio of contribution. But for this year it's a bit unfair, because (as I saw another poster say once) Brady started in the poll position for this race.

It’s 100% fair to START to question it now. If this happens again next year it will completely confirm it and Bill’s legacy will be tarnished officially forever. Why do you think Bill’s GF is so pissed

 

[Biffins]

Its mother ****ing sad that Patriot fans have devolved the greatest dynasty in League history in to a Jimmy Johnson / Jerry Jones whos more responsible argument... smh... freaking sad

This wouldn’t have happened if Brady retired a Patriot.

We are right to take umbrage at this!

 

[Biffins]

The Bucs have talent across the board. They also had a QB who threw for 30+ interceptions, which is a number so high I have to double check every time I think about it... I'm not trying to downplay what Brady was able to do (what he's always able to do in his 40's, which is incredible). I'm just saying he was replacing an absolutely liability at the most important position on the field, but otherwise the Bucs were set up on both sides of the ball.



It's not premature to scrutinize any one year, but it absolutely IS premature to declare Brady was definitively more important than Bill for the past 20 years using ONLY this year. And that's the kind of language I'm objecting to: Those are saying this is somehow definitive proof one way or the other. Their careers are not over.

Maybe the Bucs are better at developing and coaching and nurturing young players.

I’ve seen plenty of examples of BB coaching up OL/DL and linebackers and we develop them internally. I haven’t seen him do that for lots of other positions, like e.g. WR

 

[Lagaffe_07]

I don’t think this debate is unfair because i think BB brought it because he wanted to prove to everybody that he could win with anybody.

I was fine with BB and Brady at first. The prefect duo going hand in hand. I’ll admit I have a soft spot for Tom. I live in Europe and the NFL coverage is not great here. I became a Patriots fan because of Brady because he was basically the only player they talked about in my country. I really hoped that BB and Brady could have retired together or at least Brady retired as a Pats.

But since the Butler fiasco, Bill started all his « everything we did the last 20 years were to please Brady » and « we sell out » BS, totally absolving himself for any wrong doing the last 20 years. Basically putting the root cause on Brady shoulders and it rubs me the wrong way. In my opinion Bill kind brought this debate on himself

 

[PatsFanInVa]

We are not a cult. I only have 10 candles on my Tom Brady altar.

There's only 6 in my Tom Brady Manorah.

 

[Nikolai]

Umm, Black Sabbath says "hi"

Black Sabbath is damned good, but Led Zeppelin...cannot be touched

 

[sb1]

It’s 100% fair to START to question it now. If this happens again next year it will completely confirm it and Bill’s legacy will be tarnished officially forever. Why do you think Bill’s GF is so pissed

BB’s legacy is set, as is Brady’s. Not one thing about either’s legacy is tarnished at all regardless of the outcome of this or next season. Fact.

 

[Nikolai]

Its very rare that you win a Super Bowl with guys like that and the NFL has changed to a passing game.

What about Nick Foles? 2015-2016 Peyton Manning? I tend to agree that a very good QB is very important, but when one doesn't avail himself, as may wind up being the case with us, we have to find other ways to win.

 

[Triumph]

Nick Foles

Thanks Super Bowl LII - Philadelphia Eagles vs. New England Patriots - February 4th, 2018 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Foles - 28 comp @ 34 attempt = 82% completion rate which is off the charts and Brady like.. 373 pass yards and 3 TDs.

 

[Triumph]

What about Nick Foles? 2015-2016 Peyton Manning? I tend to agree that a very good QB is very important, but when one doesn't avail himself, as may wind up being the case with us, we have to find other ways to win.

The 2015 Broncos were lucky to face one of the most over rated QBs in the NFL.

Cant Newton had a worse game than broken down Peyton Manning which all makes perfect sense today.

 

[RodThePat]

What you're seeing is the reaction to 20 years of "yeah, but he couldn't do it without Bill" narratives regarding Brady. Throughout the Patriots run you saw A LOT more people doubting Brady could reproduce his success elsewhere than Belichick. No one ever argued Bill's value to the dynasty, but there absolutely was a crazy sect that still believed Tom was carried. If you think Bill has it bad with the "it was all Brady" takes now you were probably asleep in 2008 and all the "11-5 with Cassel? Brady is meaningless" takes. People just can't accept that it took both the greatest HC and the greatest QB of all time combined to go on this run, but I'd say in general Brady's contributions have been diminished more than Bill's before this year.

 

[Triumph]

Brady is way more important. Belichick sucks at drafting. League worst drafting since 2013. He is a great coach. But handicaps himself with awful drafting.

BB could afford to miss on draft picks with Brady.

Brady always found a way to win and cobbled together a playoff team with what he had to work with. Branch, Brown, Givens, Welker and Edelman. These guys are basically nobodys and Brady made them the best in the NFL. The only true lock HOF WR that Brady had in 20 years was Moss. The only HOF RB was 3 years of Dillion. Brady had 7 years of a relatively healthy Gronk and the 7th year is debatable. Gronk was fading fast and a shell of his former self, but Brady still found ways to make him relevant like in the Super Bowl.

Its going to be a very long time before the Pats are mentioned in the same sentence as Super Bowl if the drafting does not get right. Beginning with finding a young QB in the draft and a WR who isnt a bust like Harry.

 

[Steve102]

Brady is way more important. Belichick sucks at drafting and developing outside the numbers WRs.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Nehalem]

Of course its not fair.

Brady gets to have Tom Brady as his QB.

BB was stuck with Cam Newton as his QB

 

[Kontradiction]

Of course its not fair.

Brady gets to have Tom Brady as his QB.

BB was stuck with Cam Newton as his QB

That was ultimately on Bill though. He had several chances to craft an extension to keep Brady here until 45. I think Brady mentioned playing until that age a couple of times. Maybe 1-2. But Bill didn’t want to go that route. Even still, Brady probably would have stayed even though the team ****ed around with him had the GM drafted a bit better. Hell, even changing two picks could have been enough to do it - AJ Brown over N’Keal Harry and DK Metcalf over JJ Williams.

A couple of years ago, Bill said he had gotten to the point of only wanting to coach the guys that he likes to coach. What a wonderful concept. I’m a project manager for a living. I would love to only manage the constituents that I like to manage. There have been a few of them over the years who I liked on a personal level. I got the sense that I would have loved to grab a beer with them if they hadn’t reported to me. Unfortunately, they were not very good at their jobs and, after ultimately not meeting steps on their action plans, they either had to be reassigned or fired. Harry and Williams may have nailed their Foxboro interviews but, unfortunately, neither has been very good at the game of football (to date). And those are just two picks among a slew of them since 2013, when Reese departed.

 

[203Pat]

I wouldn't argue that BB is somehow responsible for what TB is doing in TB but I do think it's fair to say that BB helped Brady become what he is today. In the context of the "who was more valuable" BS argument that comment is basically in support of "they were both valuable to each other" retort.

In the same token if Bledsoe didn't get hurt we could have had a new coach in 2002.

 

[Boomer B]

Thanks Super Bowl LII - Philadelphia Eagles vs. New England Patriots - February 4th, 2018 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Foles - 28 comp @ 34 attempt = 82% completion rate which is off the charts and Brady like.. 373 pass yards and 3 TDs.

Yup, you get those type of numbers when on a wheel route you’re 5 yards open within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage and 3 yards open on a 5 yard slant. Guys were playing out of position due to one guy being kept on the bench. I’ll never figure out Patrick Chung covering Nelson Agholor 1 on 1.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Okay, so let's all only look at the bad drafts, and ignore the good years to come to a conclusion that "Belichick sucks at drafting".

A gentle reminder of some players drafted during the Belichick regime:

• Tom Brady
• Matt Light
• Logan Mankins
• Richard Seymour
• Vince Wilfork
• Rob Gronkowski
• Asante Samuel
• Nate Solder
• Dan Koppen
• Chandler Jones
• Devin McCourty
• Julian Edelman
• Dont'a Hightower
• Jamie Collins
• Sebastian Vollmer
• Jerod Mayo
• Deion Branch
• Marcus Cannon
• Matt Cassel
• Ty Warren
• Ben Watson
• Joe Thuney
• Patrick Chung
• Stephen Gostkowski
• James White
• Logan Ryan
• Shaq Mason

The last few drafts have been abysmal; there is no dispute.

But to imply that BB "sucks at drafting" is an overstatement that sounds like either contrived sports talk radio hyperbole, or a spoiled entitled fan out of touch with reality.

He drafted that Brady guy? What a lousy pick. Belichick carried his sorry ass for 20 years. Why without Bill he was so bad he would have been out of the league in a year or so......

 

[sb1]

Yup, you get those type of numbers when on a wheel route you’re 5 yards open within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage and 3 yards open on a 5 yard slant. Guys were playing out of position due to one guy being kept on the bench. I’ll never figure out Patrick Chung covering Nelson Agholor 1 on 1.

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Was that Jordan Richards that got bowled over? LMAO. Like the Keystone Kops out there. I know one guy missing out there who could have prevented all of that but well you know.