Wtf happened with Brissett deal?

[ralmat55]

This could be the Malcolm Butler all over again. A 100 pages of Belichick worshippers doing mental gymnastics to defend the indefensible.

Either your hero made a mistake drafting Brissett in the 3rd round or in giving up on him 16 months later for a limited 3rd or 4th WR and/0r a roster spot for another special-teamer.

In the Butler thread, their excuses amounted to nothing more than slander of Butler. In this thread, it’s to denigrate Brissett.

Time and $30 million guaranteed showed the slanders of Butler to be untrue. Time will also show Jacoby Brissett had a whole lot more VALUE than a 4th receiver. Of course, the Cult of the Coach will never admit it.

 

[Bruins29]

This could be the Malcolm Butler all over again. A 100 pages of Belichick worshippers doing mental gymnastics to defend the indefensible.

Either your hero made a mistake drafting Brissett in the 3rd round or in giving up on him 16 months later for a limited 3rd or 4th WR and/0r a roster spot for another special-teamer.

In the Butler thread, their excuses amounted to nothing more than slander of Butler. In this thread, it’s to denigrate Brissett.

Time and $30 million guaranteed showed the slanders of Butler to be untrue. Time will also show Jacoby Brissett had a whole lot more VALUE than a 4th receiver. Of course, the Cult of the Coach will never admit it.

 

[Oswlek]

Either your hero made a mistake drafting Brissett in the 3rd round or in giving up on him 16 months later for a limited 3rd or 4th WR

You seem to have overly optimistic expectations for a late 3rd draft pick. What that selection has garnered in production is already above average for players drafted in that position.

Even more would be nice - and it's not out of the realm of possibility that Dorsett puts together a nice 2018 - but you simply can't win with every draft pick.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

This could be the Malcolm Butler all over again. A 100 pages of Belichick worshippers doing mental gymnastics to defend the indefensible.

Either your hero made a mistake drafting Brissett in the 3rd round or in giving up on him 16 months later for a limited 3rd or 4th WR and/0r a roster spot for another special-teamer.

In the Butler thread, their excuses amounted to nothing more than slander of Butler. In this thread, it’s to denigrate Brissett.

Time and $30 million guaranteed showed the slanders of Butler to be untrue. Time will also show Jacoby Brissett had a whole lot more VALUE than a 4th receiver. Of course, the Cult of the Coach will never admit it.

Brissett was probably drafted too high. But I also have no issue with the trade.

There's no QB trades in recent history, none, that show that Brissett was traded for under market value. I've seen very little evidence of any market value at all for backup QBs being moved. If I'm forgetting any, please remind me.

 

[Ring 6]

Fellow Pats Fans,

I’m not saying this is all on BB. I’ve already suggested it may be time for a shakeup in the intel (poor reading of the market on the quarterbacks), scouting (consistently yielding zero value picks, possibly due to drafting higher risk injury players than they thought), and that certainly the Kraft/Brady dynamic complicated the quarterback situation. Am I suggesting I shouldn’t bow to BB for his greatness or that it’s time to start stripping him of responsibilities? That would be mad. I’ve pointed out that the drafting, personnel moves, and in particular, the return value on the on quarterback trades, are very concerning. The overall organization decisions have yielded poor - not just subpar, but just poor - results for several years now.

They have gone to 3 of the last 4 Super Bowls (4 of the last 7) and won 2 of them. They have won the division 9 straight years and 13 straight where they didn’t lose their starting QB for the season.
What in the world are you taking about?

This is a bottom line business.

No one has ever had a better bottom line.

As I stated, we love to talk about the “steal” we got in Randy Moss, but the Raiders could use the same excuses. They had no idea how much he still had left, the organization had problem X and Y complicating matters, etc. But in the end, they were ripped off, just has the Patriots have done for many years to many teams. We don’t rationalize the Raiders moves. Much about making trades has to do with projecting values and future production, something they’ve normally excelled at. Why are we down to arguing about the reasons and trying to justify the results? Everyone can do that about anything.

There is nothing to justify. They got what the market was, given the circumstance for the players.

For a few years, they been ending up the obvious loser on the wrong side of trades and draft picks, hence way, way less young talent to build on, less free agency gems, resulting in a much weaker and older overall roster we are accustomed to.

We just went to the SB. For the 3rd time in 4 years. It’s the second best run in franchise history.
They have lost nothing in trade (Garoppolo was never going to play here and Brissett we being cut and stinks)
How does a team that went to 3/4 SBs have a weak roster. You are nuts.

Will I still take it and believe that we still have it better than any organization in sports? You bet I would.

You just said.

“The overall organization decisions have yielded poor - not just subpar, but just poor - results for several years now.”

But it’s concerning. A series of bad trades, bad draft picks. Defending these bad trades and bad draft picks, which are judged on their ultimate results, with excuses like “how could we predict this?”, “but we had no idea what they went through”, “but these guys work hard”, “but they couldn’t predict this and that”, “but they are smarter” sounds like a lot of other fan bases rationalizing why things have not been successful. This team is Brady, Gronkowski, a few very good players, a lot of decent players, and lot of borderline NFL players. The overall roster isn’t great and the successsion plan as of now is not there. We’re usually talking at this time of the year about which awesome, high-ceiling player will get cut, not how low the bar is to make this team.

You are making up a problem then crying about why people aren’t committing suicide in response to the problem you just invented.

Another key point here is that adaptability is BB’s greatest asset of all. What may have been smart or brilliant five years ago may not be now, hence a potential change in personnel and scouting is in their best interest. I’m sure he’ll learn his lessons and adapt. Take a look at guys who have coached a long time, even an icon like Paul Brown. Ups and downs are unavoidable.

This is nonsense.

 

[Oswlek]

I’ve already suggested it may be time for a shakeup in the intel (poor reading of the market on the quarterbacks), scouting (consistently yielding zero value picks, possibly due to drafting higher risk injury players than they thought)

Poor reading of QB market? Are you claiming that NE got offered a king's ransom for JG yet was somehow unaware of it? How is that even possible? If you think NE sold low on JG, your beef is with Bill, not the FO, because it wasn't an issue of knowledge, it was because they took a shot at keeping him around, got backed into a corner when JG refused and then Bill chose to not even contact the team that had made the earlier offer.

As for Brissett, he was traded for what backups generally go for. The only time it bumps up into the 2nd round range is when you expect the QB to take over as your long-term starter, perhaps immediately. Starting in place of an incumbent who spent the year on IR doesn't meet this criteria.

I'm also confused where this consistent low yield of picks is coming from. Are you saying NE should have somehow forseen Garcia's illness? Or Wynn's achilles tear? Or Rivers' ACL?

Sure, Mitchell's, Jackson's and Easley's knees were calculated risks that didn't pan out. Perhaps we'll say the same thing about Michel in a couple years as well. But you seem to be lumping bad luck and poor choices into a giant collective that the FO is entirely responsible for. In reality, the bad luck and missing DFG selections explain the recent value suppression without appealing to a major scouting issue. Hell, even the high risk guys have been unlucky; you'd generally expect at least one of three to pan out, but not so of late.

The odds are, high pick injury luck will regress toward the mean and in five years we'll be making ad hoc explanations for why the team's drafting suddenly improved.

 

[Tony2046]

Brissett was probably drafted too high. But I also have no issue with the trade.

There's no QB trades in recent history, none, that show that Brissett was traded for under market value. I've seen very little evidence of any market value at all for backup QBs being moved. If I'm forgetting any, please remind me.

Well.....Brock Osweiler netted the Browns a second round pick... hahaha

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Last 4 years:
Won 2 Superbowls
Came within a whisker of winning a 3rd - if not for new catch rules being implemented for one game
Lost to the Broncos in the AFCCG in a building they should have never been playing in with a team decimated by injuries.

Whatever they have been doing, they should keep doing. There is always going to be misfires and things that dont work out they way the should. The teams that stay ahead of the pack take those risks.

I can understand why my comments seem silly in that context, and I don’t expect that most people would read everything I’ve written in this thread (it’s becoming novel-length.). Basic gist is this: Patriots have been great over these past four seasons, but trace back their greatness and you’ll find the personnel moves (trades, draft picks, FA signings) are virtually all traced back to the 2010-2014 period when they brought in all those awesome players that have been instrumental to the team’s success. They’ve built that team with many great moves and picks that were made earlier in the decade. The problem is they’ve had a polar oppposite experience from 2015-present, and now that the guys who’ve been key contributors to this massive success are hitting the wall of their careers...not saying they are going 7-9 and they the sky is falling, but they have some big issues that will start to become more glaring over the next few years, unless they really hit big on this last draft or some of the younger players make vast, unexpected improvements.

A good example is the Seahawks. Everything was great because they absolutely dominated a few drafts and had a bunch of all-pros in rookie deals. Next stage they had to sign all those guys to big contracts to eat cap space. That would be okay if they were developing young players at close to the same rate to ultimately succeed those core players, but they went broke on a string of consecutive drafts. Now they are a contender, but far from the threat they were before. And we can plainly see that just because they “free up cap space” by dumping contracts, that doesn’t give them the actual elite players back. The Patriots will weather the storm better than the Seahawks because of Brady, coaching, and as been pointed out, they’ve done okay with drafting some role players in the mid rounds and haven’t been horrible in free agency (because they don’t take huge risks there.). Still, I think there’s definite potential for them to resemble the Packers of late, relying on one guy to absolutely dominate in order to win.

In 2007, the Patriots had the greatest team in NFL history. In 2009, they were at a huge crossroads with talent problems abound, and you can trace it to the drafts which failed to yield a lot of new core players waiting to take the reigns. Luckily, they reversed it in 2010 with a monster, historic draft. I hope they do it again. But that’s why it really irritates me that, with a team like this in desperate need of more picks, they got such a measly return with Brissett and Garappolo.

 

[HailHydra]

I can understand why my comments seem silly in that context, and I don’t expect that most people would read everything I’ve written in this thread (it’s becoming novel-length.). Basic gist is this: Patriots have been great over these past four seasons, but trace back their greatness and you’ll find the personnel moves (trades, draft picks, FA signings) are virtually all traced back to the 2010-2014 period when they brought in all those awesome players that have been instrumental to the team’s success. They’ve built that team with many great moves and picks that were made earlier in the decade. The problem is they’ve had a polar oppposite experience from 2015-present, and now that the guys who’ve been key contributors to this massive success are hitting the wall of their careers...not saying they are going 7-9 and they the sky is falling, but they have some big issues that will start to become more glaring over the next few years, unless they really hit big on this last draft or some of the younger players make vast, unexpected improvements.

A good example is the Seahawks. Everything was great because they absolutely dominated a few drafts and had a bunch of all-pros in rookie deals. Next stage they had to sign all those guys to big contracts to eat cap space. That would be okay if they were developing young players at close to the same rate to ultimately succeed those core players, but they went broke on a string of consecutive drafts. Now they are a contender, but far from the threat they were before. And we can plainly see that just because they “free up cap space” by dumping contracts, that doesn’t give them the actual elite players back. The Patriots will weather the storm better than the Seahawks because of Brady, coaching, and as been pointed out, they’ve done okay with drafting some role players in the mid rounds and haven’t been horrible in free agency (because they don’t take huge risks there.). Still, I think there’s definite potential for them to resemble the Packers of late, relying on one guy to absolutely dominate in order to win.

In 2007, the Patriots had the greatest team in NFL history. In 2009, they were at a huge crossroads with talent problems abound, and you can trace it to the drafts which failed to yield a lot of new core players waiting to take the reigns. Luckily, they reversed it in 2010 with a monster, historic draft. I hope they do it again. But that’s why it really irritates me that, with a team like this in desperate need of more picks, they got such a measly return with Brissett and Garappolo.

We really like to pick up mediocre/average on the trade block for middle-low round picks (at least the players that we keep - so no Brandin Cooks but rather Van Noy, Rowe, etc.). However, we won't get many stars this way.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

He contributed to a Sb team last year.

He had 12 catches for 194 yards the entire season. Let’s call him what he was, a decent player added for depth purposes in case something happened to amendola or cooks. But theres no reason he can’t fetch 40-50 catches this year with both now gone and Edelman missing 4 games.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

They have gone to 3 of the last 4 Super Bowls (4 of the last 7) and won 2 of them. They have won the division 9 straight years and 13 straight where they didn’t lose their starting QB for the season.
What in the world are you taking about?



No one has ever had a better bottom line.




There is nothing to justify. They got what the market was, given the circumstance for the players.



We just went to the SB. For the 3rd time in 4 years. It’s the second best run in franchise history.
They have lost nothing in trade (Garoppolo was never going to play here and Brissett we being cut and stinks)
How does a team that went to 3/4 SBs have a weak roster. You are nuts.


You just said.

“The overall organization decisions have yielded poor - not just subpar, but just poor - results for several years now.”



You are making up a problem then crying about why people aren’t committing suicide in response to the problem you just invented.


This is nonsense.

Keep straw-manning this, the classic Andy tactic. I guess I’ll need to repeat for the seventh time to you directly that the Patriots have been unbelievable over the last four years and that is would be insane to criticize in any way the teams they’ve fielded, considering they have been far and away the best team in a parity obsessed league. You may have picked up on - possibly - that much of this was all possible because of the decisions they made and draft picks they got in the years proceeding that run, which set the table for that very fine future that became 2014-17. When I look at those very same future-setting moves from 2015-present, I suspect there are going to be a lot more issues and challenges, considering how few young players, if any, who can become cornerstones of an elite team.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Poor reading of QB market? Are you claiming that NE got offered a king's ransom for JG yet was somehow unaware of it? How is that even possible? If you think NE sold low on JG, your beef is with Bill, not the FO, because it wasn't an issue of knowledge, it was because they took a shot at keeping him around, got backed into a corner when JG refused and then Bill chose to not even contact the team that had made the earlier offer.

As for Brissett, he was traded for what backups generally go for. The only time it bumps up into the 2nd round range is when you expect the QB to take over as your long-term starter, perhaps immediately. Starting in place of an incumbent who spent the year on IR doesn't meet this criteria.

I'm also confused where this consistent low yield of picks is coming from. Are you saying NE should have somehow forseen Garcia's illness? Or Wynn's achilles tear? Or Rivers' ACL?

Sure, Mitchell's, Jackson's and Easley's knees were calculated risks that didn't pan out. Perhaps we'll say the same thing about Michel in a couple years as well. But you seem to be lumping bad luck and poor choices into a giant collective that the FO is entirely responsible for. In reality, the bad luck and missing DFG selections explain the recent value suppression without appealing to a major scouting issue. Hell, even the high risk guys have been unlucky; you'd generally expect at least one of three to pan out, but not so of late.

The odds are, high pick injury luck will regress toward the mean and in five years we'll be making ad hoc explanations for why the team's drafting suddenly improved.

On the draft picks, that is very possible that they’ve just had bad injury luck, albeit a lot of it. No doubt the injuries a huge factor, though some have been very risky picks (Easley, for example), while others are questionable regarding the risk value and whether it could have even been known. We can agree to disagree on whether we think it’s a concerning issue from their scouts/medical evaluations or not; clearly it’s mostly speculation and the burden is on me here to prove something that I cannot prove. I just think there’s a lot of things we’ve seen the last few years which previously did not seem to be problems, a very high number of draft busts (many due to injury), the other on the trade value they’ve generated for players. Whatever the reasons, whether the personnel department has been as good as always but just unlucky, or if there is more to it, it’s hard to argue with the concept that their talent pool of young players, which is fuel of NFL success, is at low levels right now, and their returns on their quarterbacks were disappointing, whether it was due to an unlucky market or errors. It seems many are categorizing many things as external bad luck - the quarterback markets at the time, the injuries. It seems like a lot of it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

We really like to pick up mediocre/average on the trade block for middle-low round picks (at least the players that we keep - so no Brandin Cooks but rather Van Noy, Rowe, etc.). However, we won't get many stars this way.

Exactly...build through the draft, round out through free agency. The Gilmore signing was one sign that the team is acknowledging a lack of young talent from recent drafts, and you need elite players to win. When’s the last time they went out and set the market on a player like that? It’s risky...I’m glad there were indications last year that it will will work out, though at that price tag, Gilmore would need to play like he did the second half of last year all the time in order to justify the value.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Exactly...build through the draft, round out through free agency. The Gilmore signing was one sign that the team is acknowledging a lack of young talent from recent drafts, and you need elite players to win. When’s the last time they went out and set the market on a player like that? It’s risky...I’m glad there were indications last year that it will will work out, though at that price tag, Gilmore would need to play like he did the second half of last year all the time in order to justify the value.

To be fair, it hasn't been very often the Pats have had the cap space to set the market on a free agent without causing cap problems going forward or eating up all the space they had going into a season. You know they operate with cap responsibility, so that's a big reason we don't see it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

To be fair, it hasn't been very often the Pats have had the cap space to set the market on a free agent without causing cap problems going forward or eating up all the space they had going into a season. You know they operate with cap responsibility, so that's a big reason we don't see it.

They don’t have the cap space because their priorities are with extending/re-resigning their own proven players, which is their strong preference in allocating their money. You may see them begin to have cap space because those homegrown players aren’t there.

 

[luuked]

Time will also show Jacoby Brissett had a whole lot more VALUE than a 4th receiver. Of course, the Cult of the Coach will never admit it.

What apparently doesn't go into your head is none of what time shows JB to be has any effect on a trade that happened in August 2017.

One more time for you. Brissett looked like garbage last camp and the team decided to move on because they did not have the time or resources to invest into his development. If no trade partner lined up he was on his way to be cut as mentioned by Curran and Perry this offseason.

With the Colts he dropped into a situation where he got a ****ton of regular season snaps and most of the practice snaps. He would have not gotten 1% of this here and would have accordingly never developed in the same way or been worth whatever some bozos think he is worth now. Add in that the way they used him was something that hid his inability to process progressions consistently and he looked better there than he would ever here.

The staff went for a QB to have depth be cause Brady was suspended for the first part of the season and it didn't work out in the same way JG did. It was a bad pick but at the same time they realized what sunk costs truly are and moved on to not waste anymore time and got themselves a young WR that was under cost control for the next two years.

Getting Dorsett for a player that was on route to get cut is not a bad trade. No matter how you spin it.

 

[supafly]

If you think BB can't adapt his offense on the fly to whatever quarterback he has, you're simply wrong.

One guy definitely worse than either Hoyer or Brissett is Matt Cassell, and in terms of playing style, Cassel is closer to Brissett than Brady, and has a weaker arm than any of these guys except possibly Hoyer.

And BB was able to regroup the offense and win 11 games with Cassell after Brady got Pollarded.

We have the offense we have becanse BB has Brady to work with, and we'd have some troubles running a different offense because the personnel isn't ideal, I get that. But don't for one minute think that BB can't get the most out of an offense run to favor a different quarterback. He's shown that he absolutely can.

Cassel knew the system well, which is pretty much the reason why Hoyer is the best choice for our 2018 backup role. There’s little chance that another outside QB can come in here now and pick up the system for this upcoming season. Yes, Belichick can adapt like he did when Garoppolo was injured and he needed to plug Brissett in, but as you recall, it was like a middle school offense where we ran the ball and did little else. The offense sputtered badly. As a matter of fact, it’s the main reason why they stayed in-house and passed on better QB options when Brady went down in 2008, despite Cassel playing poorly in the preseason.

Brian Hoyer is not a good QB, but they would be able to continue to run a good portion of our offense with him under center, and that makes a huge difference because they’d be able to do what you said in terms of playing to his strengths and helping to mask his weaknesses. You wouldn’t really have that option with another QB because he wouldn’t even know the plays or the terminology. With Hoyer, you’re probably hoping that we can score 20 on offense and make some plays in other areas such as special teams or defense, but as someone else noted, at least we can assume a .500 type of record over 4, 6, or even 8 games.

 

[supafly]

This could be the Malcolm Butler all over again. A 100 pages of Belichick worshippers doing mental gymnastics to defend the indefensible.

Either your hero made a mistake drafting Brissett in the 3rd round or in giving up on him 16 months later for a limited 3rd or 4th WR and/0r a roster spot for another special-teamer.

In the Butler thread, their excuses amounted to nothing more than slander of Butler. In this thread, it’s to denigrate Brissett.

Time and $30 million guaranteed showed the slanders of Butler to be untrue. Time will also show Jacoby Brissett had a whole lot more VALUE than a 4th receiver. Of course, the Cult of the Coach will never admit it.

That all depends on what the Pats coaches thought of Brissett, of course. I get why you’re skeptical and how you see some parallels with the fans sticking up for Belichick in the Butler situation, but I’m not sure how you’re coming up with your prediction of Brissett being so successful in the future?

We’re talking about a QB who went 4-11 with a 58% completion rate. In 15 starts, he threw a grand total of 13 touchdown passes. Setting everything else aside, why are you so high on him? Just curious.

 

[maineman209]

I am so done with this thread.

 

[DarrylS]

We really like to pick up mediocre/average on the trade block for middle-low round picks (at least the players that we keep - so no Brandin Cooks but rather Van Noy, Rowe, etc.). However, we won't get many stars this way.

Do you want stars, or consistent winning seasons??

Play GM would you allow Brandon Cooks to have a salary cap hit of $14 million+ in 2019 or $16.8 million in 2020???

Not sure how many of these teams loaded with alleged stars are going to make it work in consideration of the salary cap??? Just imagine in 2020 we have about 120 million in cap space so the Pats can bring in a boat load of "stars" to appease the masses...