The O-Line’s performance against Atlanta in SB

[K. Dog]

Brady was sacked about 8% of the time he threw, Ryan about 23% of the time he threw.. these are very overwhelming numbers that indicate how well the Pats played..

You can't infer anything about the respective Falcons/Patriots offensive line performance from these percentages, because Ryan presumably held the ball longer than Brady (indeed, Ryan's penchant for pointless 7-step drops is what got him in trouble; and Brady's quick release is characteristic). There are a number of other confounding factors, such as when blitzing happened.

 

[PatsBoy12]

All OLs struggle against well executed and timed stunts. The Patriots are no exception. When you're playing Atlanta, the defense with the most speed in the NFL from the defensive front to the safety group, it's that much more effective.

I understand, Kontra. I guess my post was also with the thought that we've seen it happen time and again with O-Lines that the Pats have had. They just seem to usually struggle with stunting defenses. I guess it's not entirely something that's exclusive to the Pats, but I think it's still something to be noted when you've seen it so many times over the years, including Seattle and both Giants SB's as well.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

All OLs struggle against well executed and timed stunts. The Patriots are no exception. When you're playing Atlanta, the defense with the most speed in the NFL from the defensive front to the safety group, it's that much more effective.

The irony is that while we lament the Pats' struggles against stunts in SB51, it was the Pats that pulled off the game-saving stunt on the Flowers sack after the Julio catch. He and Branch executed that beautifully.

Regards,
Chris

 

[Tony2046]

I agree with you. I've read various arguments on here that I shouldn't trust my own lyin' eyes, but to me it looked like the O-line was doing poorly - as it did against Houston. That's two out of three playoff games where the Oline looked weak. It's also why I don't get the point of Cooks - I just don't think Brady has the time to throw long that much, and when he does have the time, we don't need anyone else.

That said, as a spectator without game experience or detailed expertise, I find the Oline vs Dline game the most difficult to understand. I just can't see who's making an error, what's happening, what kind of leverage is being done - I don't claim to understand at all what's really happening. But I saw Brady on the ground a lot, and hit a lot, it seemed.

Apart from strategic considerations, if we make the playoffs this season, Brady would presumably have 4 extra games under his belt by then compared to '16, and I'd be profoundly concerned about durability at that point if he keeps getting hit.

I'll give you my novice opinion.

Cooks is a deep threat because of his speed. Most of Cooks' receptions last year were from quick routes. Slants, out routes etc...

The addition of Cooks creates coverage problems for opposing defenses.

Anyways I expect the addition of Cooks will create matchup problems for opposing defenses.

For example: (Using man to man in this scenario)


Opposing defenses 2016:

Edelman = # CB 1 (Best Corner)
Gronk = Strong Safety or Sam LB
Mitchel = #2 CB
Hogan = #3 CB
Amendola = # 4 CB

Opposing defenses 2017:

Cooks = #1 CB
Edelman = # CB 2
Gronk = Strong Safety or Sam LB
Mitchel = #3 CB
Hogan = #4 CB

In other words he will force the defense to shift their coverages which will cause greater matchup issues. Which is exactly what Brady does best. Finds matchup problems pre snap.

Anyways the Pats won a SB without Gronk a few months ago who is one of the leagues best blocking TE's. Btw so is Allen. Not sure where your worries are coming from. The addition of Cooks and the return of Gronk is something to be excited about. Really.

And yes Cooks will occasionally go deep.

Have a feeling we're going to see a lot of 3 and 4 receiver sets this season. Plus Gronk. Plus White or Lewis or Gillislee and maybe some Burkhead.

How you are finding away to crap your pants about the season with this roster is beyond me. (I say that in a friendly joking way)

 

[DarrylS]

You can't infer anything about the respective Falcons/Patriots offensive line performance from these percentages, because Ryan presumably held the ball longer than Brady (indeed, Ryan's penchant for pointless 7-step drops is what got him in trouble; and Brady's quick release is characteristic). There are a number of other confounding factors, such as when blitzing happened.

You can infer that if a QB drops back 62 times in a Superbowl that he will get sacked, there will be O Line breakdowns... Brady got sacked about 8% of the time and Ryan got sacked about 22% of the time..

The cup is about 3/4 full.. things can always be better....

 

[PatsBoy12]

The irony is that while we lament the Pats' struggles against stunts in SB51, it was the Pats that pulled off the game-saving stunt on the Flowers sack after the Julio catch. He and Branch executed that beautifully.

Regards,
Chris

That's very true. There is no doubt that the issue is not exclusive to the Patriots at all, and I certainly was not suggesting it was in my initial post. I guess it's just been something I've seen time and again with NE, probably because I watch all of their games and not as much of other team's games. However, it seems to be a staple for any good game plan against the Pats, particularly in SB's, as we've now seen it in four straight (Giants '07 and '11, Seahawks and Falcons). It's something that Reiss also noted, though that has less to do with why I feel this way. But alas, you are very right in that NE effectively used it against the Falcons in the same game.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I'll give you my novice opinion.

Cooks is a deep threat because of his speed. Most of Cooks' receptions last year were from quick routes. Slants, out routes etc...

The addition of Cooks creates coverage problems for opposing defenses.

Anyways I expect the addition of Cooks will create matchup problems for opposing defenses.

For example: (Using man to man in this scenario)


Opposing defenses 2016:

Edelman = # CB 1 (Best Corner)
Gronk = Strong Safety or Sam LB
Mitchel = #2 CB
Hogan = #3 CB
Amendola = # 4 CB

Opposing defenses 2017:

Cooks = #1 CB
Edelman = # CB 2
Gronk = Strong Safety or Sam LB
Mitchel = #3 CB
Hogan = #4 CB

In other words he will force the defense to shift their coverages which will cause greater matchup issues. Which is exactly what Brady does best. Finds matchup problems pre snap.

Anyways the Pats won a SB without Gronk a few months ago who is one of the leagues best blocking TE's. Btw so is Allen. Not sure where your worries are coming from. The addition of Cooks and the return of Gronk is something to be excited about. Really.

And yes Cooks will occasionally go deep.

Have a feeling we're going to see a lot of 3 and 4 receiver sets this season. Plus Gronk. Plus White or Lewis or Gillislee and maybe some Burkhead.

How you are finding away to crap your pants about the season with this roster is beyond me. (I say that in a friendly joking way)

I suspect that most teams will try to deploy a man concept against NE, including the Steelers who have already said as much publicly. It is something with which NE has struggled over the years - post Randy, I suppose - because of their diminutive and athletically limited (comparably speaking) receivers. A healthy Gronk and, as you've pointed out, the addition of the speedy Cooks will make that very very difficult for defenses to execute in reality though. As @robertweathers stated, this offense is the most diverse we've ever seen (on paper anyway) in NE. It's seemingly built perfectly to play against man and zone coverage. And if Gillislee can provide that extra element to the ground, one with more home run capability than Blount (I really like LG), then I just don't see how teams will stop it.

I normally try not to engage in 19-0 stuff (hate it) and talk of being unstoppable, but at least the unstoppable part has to be on the table here for the reasons mentioned already. If the O can strike a good run/pass balance, it will be a hard day for every team on the schedule. I said it in 2014, 2015 and 2016, and 2017 is no exception - provided health to the key guys and solid OL performance, I don't see any other team in the NFL stopping NE. In fact, I think it applies this year more than ever.

 

[TbSB5]

The o-line has been the best this team has had for awhile. I'm not worried. Better than the monstrosity they had in 2015.

 

[PatsWSB47]

You can infer that if a QB drops back 62 times in a Superbowl that he will get sacked, there will be O Line breakdowns... Brady got sacked about 8% of the time and Ryan got sacked about 22% of the time..

The cup is about 3/4 full.. things can always be better....

Actually Brady dropped back 68 times if you add in the sacks and the time he took off running. He actually threw it 62 times, but your point is well taken.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I suspect that most teams will try to deploy a man concept against NE, including the Steelers who have already said as much publicly. It is something with which NE has struggled over the years - post Randy, I suppose - because of their diminutive and athletically limited (comparably speaking) receivers. A healthy Gronk and, as you've pointed out, the addition of the speedy Cooks will make that very very difficult for defenses to execute in reality though. As @robertweathers stated, this offense is the most diverse we've ever seen (on paper anyway) in NE. It's seemingly built perfectly to play against man and zone coverage. And if Gillislee can provide that extra element to the ground, one with more home run capability than Blount (I really like LG), then I just don't see how teams will stop it.

I normally try not to engage in 19-0 stuff (hate it) and talk of being unstoppable, but at least the unstoppable part has to be on the table here for the reasons mentioned already. If the O can strike a good run/pass balance, it will be a hard day for every team on the schedule. I said it in 2014, 2015 and 2016, and 2017 is no exception - provided health to the key guys and solid OL performance, I don't see any other team in the NFL stopping NE. In fact, I think it applies this year more than ever.

They won't go 19-0 but they sure do have the team to do it

 

[Ring 6]

You can't infer anything about the respective Falcons/Patriots offensive line performance from these percentages, because Ryan presumably held the ball longer than Brady (indeed, Ryan's penchant for pointless 7-step drops is what got him in trouble; and Brady's quick release is characteristic). There are a number of other confounding factors, such as when blitzing happened.

Give up. Your argument is a loser.
The patriots win the SB stop trying to find reasons to be negative about that.

 

[Ring 6]

I suspect that most teams will try to deploy a man concept against NE, including the Steelers who have already said as much publicly. It is something with which NE has struggled over the years - post Randy, I suppose - because of their diminutive and athletically limited (comparably speaking) receivers. A healthy Gronk and, as you've pointed out, the addition of the speedy Cooks will make that very very difficult for defenses to execute in reality though. As @robertweathers stated, this offense is the most diverse we've ever seen (on paper anyway) in NE. It's seemingly built perfectly to play against man and zone coverage. And if Gillislee can provide that extra element to the ground, one with more home run capability than Blount (I really like LG), then I just don't see how teams will stop it.

I normally try not to engage in 19-0 stuff (hate it) and talk of being unstoppable, but at least the unstoppable part has to be on the table here for the reasons mentioned already. If the O can strike a good run/pass balance, it will be a hard day for every team on the schedule. I said it in 2014, 2015 and 2016, and 2017 is no exception - provided health to the key guys and solid OL performance, I don't see any other team in the NFL stopping NE. In fact, I think it applies this year more than ever.

A few things.
I don't think the steelers publicly stated that they are going to play man I think one of their corners said they should.

It's wrong to say the patriots have struggled against man. They have destroyed in many times. It's more apt to say no one can stop them in a zone and the way to defend them best is to play great man coverage and get a fierce pass rush, if you can. It rarely happens.

 

[AzPatsFan]

The o-line has been the best this team has had for awhile. I'm not worried. Better than the monstrosity they had in 2015.

This Offensive line is only now entering its maturity. It is indeed the most intrinsically talented of any in the Belichick era. It will get better.

Note: The best Patriots line had Gray and Hawg Hannah and the all time NFL 3000 yard rushing totals back in the 70s.

 

[Brandon_Cox]

This is from the BSJ:

THREE UP

OL Ted Karras: Was outstanding in one-on-ones and team drills. Right now he’s playing backup center to David Andrews, but if Karras keeps this up, don’t think it’s out of the question that he could make center a competitive position. He’s a lot bigger than Andrews, and that may be worth looking at for the coaches.

• Andrews had a tough time with the bull rushes from Valentine, and then Brown.

Interesting. I wonder if they would go with Karras as the starting center.

Practice report 07.29.17

 

[K. Dog]

The patriots win the SB stop trying to find reasons to be negative about that.

This reminds me of what everyone was saying before the 2007 Super Bowl.

 

[Bruins29]

This reminds me of what everyone was saying before the 2007 Super Bowl.

 

[Ring 6]

This reminds me of what everyone was saying before the 2007 Super Bowl.

How could anyone be saying everything was fine because they won the SB before they won the SB?

You do realize we won SB 51 right?
You do realize that no one can analyze that away right?

 

[RobertWeathers]

How could anyone be saying everything was fine because they won the SB before they won the SB?

You do realize we won SB 51 right?
You do realize that no one can analyze that away right?

People were *****ing about Randy Moss dogging it in practice.

 

[Ring 6]

People were *****ing about Randy Moss dogging it in practice.

But we are talking about the 2017 team AFTER it won. It's over there is nothing to analyze about 2017 you can't go back and take away the title.

 

[RobertWeathers]

But we are talking about the 2017 team AFTER it won. It's over there is nothing to analyze about 2017 you can't go back and take away the title.

Yes. It's a double fault. The fact was people *****ed about Moss dogging it and do not remember and the team did not win thus no reference point to greatness.