We're on to the OFF-Season

[Ring 6]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about RPO in this thread.
RPO, run/pass option means that a running play is called, but one receiver runs a route and the qb has the option to pull it back and throw to him. (You can call a pass with an option to run because it screws up the blocking).
It’s important to note that it can only be a quick hit like a slant because if you run a longer route or have to check to another receiver your OL is going to be downfield.

RPO has absolutely nothing to do with the mobility of the QB.

Offenses with mobile QBs running designed plays are option run offenses. Just like the old triple option the qb decides to keep or pitch/handoff. Because the triple option would be deadly in the nfl since the qb will be hit by the man he options off of and literally draws in the hit, modern qb option runs are done in the interior rather than on the edge. The play is designed for the RB to run to one area or direction and the QB another and the qb reads the defense and decides whether to hand off or keep.
That is not an “RPO offense” but like any offense can include RPO.

Any offensive scheme can run RPO with any personnel, so “running QB offenses” and “RPO offenses” are not the same thing.

 

[venecol]

Thornton and Marcus Jones are first round talents. Henry is one of the best TE’s in the league when healthy. Parker once put up 1200 yards and 9 TD’s with Fitzpatrick as his QB. We had one of the most talented RB rooms in the NFL this season.

Thornton is at the bottom of almost all rookie WRs, many who were drafted after him. Marcus is not a 1st round talent. He's a gadget player. Henry is not one of the best TEs unless you mean he's getting paid like one. Never been a Pro bowler or All Pro. Parker is who he is when he can be on the field. Pats ended bottom 3rd in rushing yards/game.

None of this ^ matters if you’re the most penalized offense in the NFL, if opponents are calling out your plays presnap and you’re coached by a moron.

It does matter. Team lacks elite talent regardless of play calls. This same team wasn't any more dangerous with McDaniels as OC.

The Bucs went from a top three offense the previous two seasons to the 26th lowest scoring team without Arians. Coaching matters, talent matters, talent without coaching is useless… look at Kadarius Toney’s time with the Giants if you need another example.

Your mistake is to believe the Pats have talented players. Average talent + poor coaching = missing playoffs.
Avg talent + good coaching = getting blown out in WC.

 

[venecol]

Traditional offenses still work. Staffords won a ring last year, Brady the year before, both of those guys are statues.

Stafford was in a Shanahan style offense w/ elite talent. Brady was in an air assault offense w/ elite talent. Pats don't have any of that.

When does this utopia of running QB’s get here… they’ve been predicting it for the last decade or more?

Guess you missed it.

Who was Mahomes when he was exiting Texas Tech, who was Brock Purdy before he played a snap. Stop pretending you can see the future, you can’t.

I can see enough to know Mac & Zappe are no Mahomes. Lol

These guys don’t have to become Mahomes, they could become Purdy or another solid QB and this team could still win rings.

Purdy? Seriously?
This team is not winning jack sh*t as presently composed. I very much doubt Belichick wins another ring. I'd be willing to put money on it.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Your mistake is to believe the Pats have talented players. Average talent + poor coaching = missing playoffs.

This team is not winning jack sh*t as presently composed. I very much doubt Belichick wins another ring. I'd be willing to put money on it.

This team has very little talent and the worst coaching staff in the league. I enjoy when posters list out the "talented players" on the team.

 

[venecol]

This team has very little talent and the worst coaching staff in the league. I enjoy when posters list out the "talented players" on the team.

Agree. The only elitish talent I see is Onwenu on O and Judon on D. You can probably throw in Rham. That's just not enough. Bill will continue to go after "system" players w/ goal of coaching them up to manage the cap. That won't work anymore. Competition has gotten real and we don't have an elite QB.

 

[BobDigital]

Frankly the last few three years are exactly what I was afraid would happen. BB is a good coach, and while his approaches on systems and concepts may vary, his overall philosophy has always been the same. He seems unwilling to sacrifice short term for long term, and is just kind of hoping to get lucky in the draft. The last 3 years we are 25-25 with an 0-1 in the WC round. So exactly average. And it's time to have a very uncomfortable discussion about this team and our future. Cause this is the new normal as long as BB is our coach unless we strike gold again.

BB inherented a young talented team that needed to mature in 2000. Add in getting an absolute steal in Brady and we became a dynasty, mostly because of our ability to steal a championship in 2001 when we honestly weren't the best team. We got hot, had ball luck and faced good match ups. We were able to sign some free agents that helped in that 2001 run for cheap and then got Rodney in 2003 along with some good early value draft picks in later rounds and we had our dynasty.

Then we saw the wheels start to come off in 05' and 06' as age, free agency and other factors allowed us to compete, but not be able to get over the hump. We went big in 07, but came up short. Then 08' and 09 were lost years. From 10-13' we were in the mix but turned away by slightly more talented teams, but those 10-13' drafts laid the foundation for our 14-20 run. That 09' draft turned out to be sneak important too, but would not be felt until years later.

This led many fans and BB to believe this system worked, but it only worked because we had Brady to get us through subpar draft runs and to maxmimize the talent when we had good draft runs. WE nabbed key free agents, in large part due to Brady, but that is no longer happening. We wrapped up Judon, but we aren't really feeling the impact he would have because we don't have the other players to put us over the top. And he isn't quite like a Harrison or Revis signing. And even if he was it wouldn't matter. As BB's entire philosophy only works if you have the top QB to put you over the top when you hit above average and allows to to tread water when you miss.

Here is what the Patriots need to do. We need to suck. Not pick 16th or 15th. We need to suck. We need to suck for a few years in a row. We need to get top 5 picks and those key high second round picks that are so so much more valuable than low second round picks (and that again holds true for the 3rd round, though not nearly as much). Only then will we be able to compete. We are not GB or SF. And will not be lucky enough to see another first ballot HOF QB in a Patriots jersey again for a long long time. And if we are lucky enough to pick one it won't be in the second round or late first most likely.

We need talent, and just as much, we need a coach who is willing to draft the most talented players regardless of their attitude or willingness to keep their mouth shut. Then once we have that team we need to hope we can sign a good to great QB on the cheap who can be carried by that talent for a year to steal one, or draft another unicorn. Either way, that won't be happening as long as BB is the coach here.

Time to move on. Being the best coach of all time, which he probably is, doesn't mean he is the best coach, or even a good one to have right now for THIS team.

 

[Wozzy]

Thornton is at the bottom of almost all rookie WRs, many who were drafted after him. Marcus is not a 1st round talent. He's a gadget player. Henry is not one of the best TEs unless you mean he's getting paid like one. Never been a Pro bowler or All Pro. Parker is who he is when he can be on the field. Pats ended bottom 3rd in rushing yards/game.

Our weapon’s production came on the worst coached offense in the league. And Henry is one of the best TE’s in the league, that’s how you become one of the highest paid free agents in the offseason… he was great on the Chargers before he came here. You’re like Captain Stoned, constantly telling us our talent sucks. The same people saying we had no talent in 2014, 2016 and 2018 outside of Brady.

It does matter. Team lacks elite talent regardless of play calls. This same team wasn't any more dangerous with McDaniels as OC.

They made the playoffs with a rookie QB last season and ranked 6th in the league in scoring… wtf are you talking about. The weapons were much better this year, the offense was far worse. That was due to terrible coaching.

Your mistake is to believe the Pats have talented players. Average talent + poor coaching = missing playoffs.
Avg talent + good coaching = getting blown out in WC.

Randy Moss on the Raiders in 2006 was washed up and had lost his talent. On the Pats in 2007 he set records. It’s a team game, team includes coaches. Andy Reid won with Matt Moore as his QB when Mahomes got hurt. The Giants and Jags just set their franchises back on course by changing the coaches. Fantasy football is not reality football.

 

[mgteich]

Agholor and Wynn are no longer under contract

You know better than this silliness.

You said that we can save cap money.

No cap money is saved from the stated cap numbers for 2023 by not signing Wynn and Agholor.

 

[mgteich]

They made the playoffs with a rookie QB last season and ranked 6th in the league in scoring… wtf are you talking about. The weapons were much better this year, the offense was far worse. That was due to terrible coaching.

Our Offense was OK in 2021. There should have been an improvement in 2022. It was NOT the talent with players that decreased/

Folks cannot blame the players for not ignoring their coaches and calling their own game plan and plays. Even if they had the extra time to do the jobs of OC coach. OL caoch and play-caller, that really was not an option.

Sure there were times when the players made mistakes. ALL players make mistakes.
==========
Let's move!
Let's improve the quality of players compared to 2021 and hopefully even 2022.
===================
And yes, might start with upgrades from
Wynn
Cajuste, and
Agholor.
========
That's not really a tall order.

 

[Ring 6]

You know better than this silliness.

You said that we can save cap money.

No cap money is saved from the stated cap numbers for 2023 by not signing Wynn and Agholor.

Why are you saying that to me? I’m the one who pointed out what you just said. Jesus. Get some air.

 

[signbabybrady]

It’s been reported that as co-DC he calls the game day X’s and O’s while Mayo implements the plans for the upcoming opponent with the defense when he’s not coaching the linebackers.

We probably have the least talented group of linebackers since Belichick has been here, especially in the middle.

Plus, you have to admit players respect coaches who played the game. Didn’t use to be this bad. Didn’t we have a player complain about this with the safeties coach?

And Stevie’s rapport with the players is far less than that of Mayo. That’s why we have this unusual setup in the first place.

Any links to these reports?

 

[Ivan]

Frank Reich might be a good choice.

This would be my first choice.

 

[upstater1]

Frankly the last few three years are exactly what I was afraid would happen. BB is a good coach, and while his approaches on systems and concepts may vary, his overall philosophy has always been the same. He seems unwilling to sacrifice short term for long term, and is just kind of hoping to get lucky in the draft. The last 3 years we are 25-25 with an 0-1 in the WC round. So exactly average. And it's time to have a very uncomfortable discussion about this team and our future. Cause this is the new normal as long as BB is our coach unless we strike gold again.

BB inherented a young talented team that needed to mature in 2000. Add in getting an absolute steal in Brady and we became a dynasty, mostly because of our ability to steal a championship in 2001 when we honestly weren't the best team. We got hot, had ball luck and faced good match ups. We were able to sign some free agents that helped in that 2001 run for cheap and then got Rodney in 2004 along with some good early value draft picks in later rounds and we had our dynasty.

Then we saw the wheels start to come off in 05' and 06' as age, free agency and other factors allowed us to compete, but not be able to get over the hump. We went big in 07, but came up short. Then 08' and 09 were lost years. From 10-13' we were in the mix but turned away by slightly more talented teams, but those 10-13' drafts laid the foundation for our 14-20 run. That 09' draft turned out to be sneak important too, but would not be felt until years later.

This led many fans and BB to believe this system worked, but it only worked because we had Brady to get us through subpar draft runs and to maxmimize the talent when we had good draft runs. WE nabbed key free agents, in large part due to Brady, but that is no longer happening. We wrapped up Judon, but we aren't really feeling the impact he would have because we don't have the other players to put us over the top. And he isn't quite like a Harrison or Revis signing. And even if he was it wouldn't matter. As BB's entire philosophy only works if you have the top QB to put you over the top when you hit above average and allows to to tread water when you miss.

???

Are you talking about Ty Law?

Because I can't think of these talented players he inherited.

Who are you talking about? Law & Bruschi & McGinest? That's 3 players. And while I loved Tedy, he's not really a perennial Pro Bowler.

This is not really what anyone would call inherited talent, 3 players.

Also, they needed to mature? This was McGinest's 7th or 8th year in the NFL. Most players are out in 3 years. Really now, you can say Belichick brought out the best in McGinest, but in 2001, McGinest was an old hand. Law was in his 7th year, Bruschi in his 6th.

Are we rally saying these 3 players came into their maturity and that's what made Belichick?!?

 

[TheRainMaker]

BB inherented a young talented team that needed to mature in 2000.

They had some talent, but they had holes all over the roster. Their O-line was aging and overpaid. They had a pathetic running game. Coates was declining quickly. DL was aging and had no pass rusher (he was there in Greg Spires who the coaches ingored) helping McGinest and a declining Slade. FS was a massive hole created by Grier/Carroll letting Willie Clay go in favor of the worst S pre Jordan Richards in Chris Carter.

From 10-13' we were in the mix but turned away by slightly more talented teams, but those 10-13' drafts laid the foundation for our 14-20 run. That 09' draft turned out to be sneak important too, but would not be felt until years later.

Denver Broncos 2013 was the only team that was better than the Pats. Every other loss the Pats had to the Jets (2010), Giants (2011), and Ravens (2012) were massive letdowns. The Pats had no business losing to those teams.

 

[venecol]

Our weapon’s production came on the worst coached offense in the league. And Henry is one of the best TE’s in the league, that’s how you become one of the highest paid free agents in the offseason… he was great on the Chargers before he came here. You’re like Captain Stoned, constantly telling us our talent sucks. The same people saying we had no talent in 2014, 2016 and 2018 outside of Brady.

No, you can become one of the highest paid TEs because a team desperate for TE production after they f*cked up the TE drafts, will over pay for free agents. That's exactly what happened.

They made the playoffs with a rookie QB last season and ranked 6th in the league in scoring… wtf are you talking about. The weapons were much better this year, the offense was far worse. That was due to terrible coaching.

We made the playoffs and got blown out by our division rival. That was with good coaching. Coaching didn't matter. We lacked talent to compete against teams w/ elite players. We still do. Coaches coach, players win games.

Randy Moss on the Raiders in 2006 was washed up and had lost his talent. On the Pats in 2007 he set records. It’s a team game, team includes coaches. Andy Reid won with Matt Moore as his QB when Mahomes got hurt. The Giants and Jags just set their franchises back on course by changing the coaches. Fantasy football is not reality football.

Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody has ever said that it doesn't take a team, because duh, its a team sport. The team includes coaches. Your problem is believing that the coaches are 60% responsible for wins and that good coaching can overcome lack of elite talent. It can't. Using the dynasty years as examples is no longer applicable because we don't have an elite QB. Until Bill stops ****ing around w/ players like Tavai, none of these results will change.

 

[gitgronked82]

This team has very little talent and the worst coaching staff in the league. I enjoy when posters list out the "talented players" on the team.

I think that’s pretty over the top. There are several talented players on the team. Whether they have a plethora of all pro level talent is fair to cast doubt on, but I do think they’ve built a solid base of talented players (and are in a much better spot with that than 2 years ago), including a base of promising/talented young players.

For what it’s worth, here’s Kyles’ in-depth chart. You may not agree with every ranking on there, but it’s an illustrative reference and his views are grounded in loads of film study.

 

[venecol]

I think that’s pretty over the top. There are several talented players on the team. Whether they have a plethora of all pro level talent is fair to cast doubt on, but I do think they’ve built a solid base of talented players (and are in a much better spot with that than 2 years ago), including a base of promising/talented young players.

For what it’s worth, here’s Kyles’ in-depth chart. You may not agree with every ranking on there, but it’s an illustrative reference and his views are grounded in loads of film study.

He lists Wynn as a High priority UFA. Aside from that, he only lists 2 High end starters, both on defense. None on offense. I would consider Onwenu a high end starter and drop Dugger. One on D and one on O. That's it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Hunter Henry is one of the best TEs in the league! Lmfao

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

No, you can become one of the highest paid TEs because a team desperate for TE production after they f*cked up the TE drafts, will over pay for free agents. That's exactly what happened.


We made the playoffs and got blown out by our division rival. That was with good coaching. Coaching didn't matter. We lacked talent to compete against teams w/ elite players. We still do. Coaches coach, players win games.

He just needs to compare this game in the PO from us against buffalo and the Miami our division rival with 7th rd rookie against Buffalo close to win it there only one score difference

Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody has ever said that it doesn't take a team, because duh, its a team sport. The team includes coaches. Your problem is believing that the coaches are 60% responsible for wins and that good coaching can overcome lack of elite talent. It can't. Using the dynasty years as examples is no longer applicable because we don't have an elite QB. Until Bill stops ****ing around w/ players like Tavai, none of these results will change.

 

[sb1]

Frankly the last few three years are exactly what I was afraid would happen. BB is a good coach, and while his approaches on systems and concepts may vary, his overall philosophy has always been the same. He seems unwilling to sacrifice short term for long term, and is just kind of hoping to get lucky in the draft. The last 3 years we are 25-25 with an 0-1 in the WC round. So exactly average. And it's time to have a very uncomfortable discussion about this team and our future. Cause this is the new normal as long as BB is our coach unless we strike gold again.

BB inherented a young talented team that needed to mature in 2000. Add in getting an absolute steal in Brady and we became a dynasty, mostly because of our ability to steal a championship in 2001 when we honestly weren't the best team. We got hot, had ball luck and faced good match ups. We were able to sign some free agents that helped in that 2001 run for cheap and then got Rodney in 2003 along with some good early value draft picks in later rounds and we had our dynasty.

Then we saw the wheels start to come off in 05' and 06' as age, free agency and other factors allowed us to compete, but not be able to get over the hump. We went big in 07, but came up short. Then 08' and 09 were lost years. From 10-13' we were in the mix but turned away by slightly more talented teams, but those 10-13' drafts laid the foundation for our 14-20 run. That 09' draft turned out to be sneak important too, but would not be felt until years later.

This led many fans and BB to believe this system worked, but it only worked because we had Brady to get us through subpar draft runs and to maxmimize the talent when we had good draft runs. WE nabbed key free agents, in large part due to Brady, but that is no longer happening. We wrapped up Judon, but we aren't really feeling the impact he would have because we don't have the other players to put us over the top. And he isn't quite like a Harrison or Revis signing. And even if he was it wouldn't matter. As BB's entire philosophy only works if you have the top QB to put you over the top when you hit above average and allows to to tread water when you miss.

Here is what the Patriots need to do. We need to suck. Not pick 16th or 15th. We need to suck. We need to suck for a few years in a row. We need to get top 5 picks and those key high second round picks that are so so much more valuable than low second round picks (and that again holds true for the 3rd round, though not nearly as much). Only then will we be able to compete. We are not GB or SF. And will not be lucky enough to see another first ballot HOF QB in a Patriots jersey again for a long long time. And if we are lucky enough to pick one it won't be in the second round or late first most likely.

We need talent, and just as much, we need a coach who is willing to draft the most talented players regardless of their attitude or willingness to keep their mouth shut. Then once we have that team we need to hope we can sign a good to great QB on the cheap who can be carried by that talent for a year to steal one, or draft another unicorn. Either way, that won't be happening as long as BB is the coach here.

Time to move on. Being the best coach of all time, which he probably is, doesn't mean he is the best coach, or even a good one to have right now for THIS team.

We could use a bottoming out or two for some elite picks that turn into great young players. The Patriots will never bottom out with BB here.