Rapoport: Patriots quietly bring in Lamar Jackson for Pre Draft Visit

[primetime]

Do please explain, because I'd be inclined to use Butler as an example of just the opposite of what you're claiming.

Belichick said it was a football decision. Players have suggested it was a football decision (and are frustrated about it, explicitly in the case of Amendola.) The sorts of sources that you expect to know something haven't reported anything other than that it was a football decision.

Besides that, there's been nothing other than rampant speculation from talking heads and fans that it was anything other than a football decision, the reasoning being that Belichick must be lying because otherwise it doesn't make any sense because Belichick is infallible when it comes to football decisions. I don't really have a dog in this fight, for what it's worth. I don't care about Butler, it's water under the bridge.

The same principle applies to the stuff about Guerrero. There's plenty of smoke, people just don't want to hear about the fire.

 

[lancerman]

There's been a lot said about Butler. That people are unwilling to believe any of it is true, no matter how many times it's corroborated, is sort of my point.

There’s literally nothing that came from anywhere near a reputable source. Furthermore there been just as much going the other way if you want to play that game

 

[primetime]

There’s literally nothing that came from anywhere near a reputable source. Furthermore there been just as much going the other way if you want to play that game

"I respect Malcolm's competitiveness and I'm sure he felt he could've helped," Belichick said Monday. "I'm sure other players felt the same way. In the end, we have to make the decisions that we feel are best for the football team."

“We put the players and game plan out there that we thought would be the best, like we always do,” Belichick said.

 

[Deus Irae]

Belichick said it was a football decision. Players have suggested it was a football decision and didn't make any sense.

Besides that, there's been nothing other than rampant speculation from the media and fans that it was anything other than a football decision, the reasoning being that Belichick must be lying because otherwise it doesn't make any sense because Belichick is infallible when it comes to football decisions.

Patriots players pretty much never give the kind of commentary we've gotten on Butler (the Amendola interview was way off the reservation for a Patriot/ex-Pat), and you seem to be confusing the people's understanding of Bill's tactics with something more. We all know that Bill uses "football decision" and "Best interest of the team", among other phrases, as a way to shut down inquiry, not as an explanation.

 

[primetime]

Patriots players pretty much never give the kind of commentary we've gotten on Butler (the Amendola interview was way off the reservation for a Patriot/ex-Pat), and you seem to be confusing the people's understanding of Bill's tactics with something more. We all know that Bill uses "football decision" and "Best interest of the team", among other phrases, as a way to shut down inquiry, not as an explanation.

I suspect Patriots players give that kind of commentary off the record more than most fans are willing to admit. The Guerrero stuff came from somewhere too.

And there have been plenty of Patriots' draft picks successfully called by journalists. I distinctly remember Michael Holley declaring Jerod Mayo as the Patriots' favorite player in 2008. The Patriots aren't the Stasi, they're not controlling information extremely tightly.

I'm sorry for bringing up Butler because it's the rhetorical equivalent of dropping a nuclear bomb in one of these threads and now this is going to devolve into something awful. I don't care about Butler at all. It doesn't matter.

 

[Deus Irae]

I suspect Patriots players give that kind of commentary off the record more than most fans are willing to admit. The Guerrero stuff came from somewhere too.

Amendola, Rowe and McCourty were all on the record. The Guerrero stuff also had documentation (Brady film), and his absence from areas where he'd once been was easy for people to see. No media, or off the record commentary, was needed for that.

And there have been plenty of Patriots' draft picks successfully called by journalists. I distinctly remember Michael Holley declaring Jerod Mayo as the Patriots' favorite player in 2008. The Patriots aren't the Stasi, they're not controlling information extremely tightly.

You remember Holley getting the Mayo call right because that pretty much never happens, not because it's a commonplace thing.

I'm sorry for bringing up Butler because it's the rhetorical equivalent of dropping a nuclear bomb in one of these threads and now this is going to devolve into something awful. I don't care about Butler at all. It doesn't matter.

Butler serves as an example of your point not holding water. The rest doesn't really matter.

 

[scott99]

I know I'm not the smartest guy, but I actually came into this thread, and quickly jumped out, because I thought I clicked on the Malcolm Butler thread by mistake instead of the Lamar Jackson thread.

 

[Simpelton]

You can call me crazy all you want to, I want no part of a running QB. None. At all. EVER.

A QB's job is to throw the ball, if he can run, great, that'll help him when he rolls out of the pocket. If a guy isn't spending 80% of his plays in the pocket, I don't want him. At all.

I would legit rather have Kirk Cousins than Lamar Jackson under center for this team if it's curtains for Brady. Even an average pocket passer is a better fit for the Patriots offense than any so-called "athletic" QB.

I don't want a glorified running back under center because they tend to have the same longevity problems as running backs, only for a lot more money and with a lot more at stake if one gets seriously hurt. Losing a RB sucks, but losing a QB kills your season. there's too much at stake to let quarterbacks run.

For an example of what I mean, look what the loss of Deshaun Watson meant to the Texans this year. Running QBs put like 5x the wear and tear on themselves as pocket passers. They're explosive, but that works both ways, they can blow themselves up too and if that happens enough, you're very much screwed. Guys like that turn into RGIII as often as they make something more useful than themselves. It adds a ton of volatility to an already volatile investment and when you're hanging your hat on a guy as a franchise, extra volatility should be the literal last thing you want..

There's a GODDAMN REASON that the pocket passers are the guys playing into their 40s, and if you aren't a pocket passer playing that age, it's because you've learned to pass in the pocket. They're a much stabler investment. Gimme a guy who can throw the ball, and let the running backs run.

 

[carmelo15]

Lamar Jackson Could Be the Best Bargain of the 2018 NFL Draft

 

[primetime]

There's a GODDAMN REASON that the pocket passers are the guys playing into their 40s

The Patriots wanted to turn Rich Gannon into a running back. Doug Flutie was, by any account, a phenomenal athlete and running quarterback.

 

[Simpelton]

And Julian Edelman started as a quarterback. And the transition to wide receiver was the best thing that could have happened to him.

There ARE running quarterbacks that succeed in the league. Cam Newton springs to mind. But I want to reiterate my main point -- it is RISKIER to draft a running QB than it is to draft a pocket passer. Injuries and a lack of development of the passing game to offset the run are both serious problems for running QBs in the NFL.

In other words, a franchise with a lot to lose, like, oh say, the Patriots, who desperately need to hit their next QB pick out of the park to maintain their dynasty, should probably avoid doing this and favor a lower risk investment in a pocket passer.

Big problem in my mind is that it's the nature of players who run with the football to get flattened by the line several times a game, even when they're playing well. That's a lot of accumulated wear and tear over the years, and absolutely a reason that running quarterbacks either transition to pocket passers or fade out of the league by age 31. Better to just start where you're gonna finish IMHO. And that's without all the new concerns about concussions which a running QB is *absolutely* at much greater risk for.

 

[primetime]

And Julian Edelman started as a quarterback. And the transition to wide receiver was the best thing that could have happened to him.

There ARE running quarterbacks that succeed in the league. Cam Newton springs to mind. But I want to reiterate my main point -- it is RISKIER to draft a running QB than it is to draft a pocket passer. Injuries and a lack of development of the passing game to offset the run are both serious problems for running QBs in the NFL.

In other words, a franchise with a lot to lose, like, oh say, the Patriots, who desperately need to hit their next QB pick out of the park to maintain their dynasty, should probably avoid doing this and favor a lower risk investment in a pocket passer.

Big problem in my mind is that it's the nature of players who run with the football to get flattened by the line several times a game, even when they're playing well. That's a lot of accumulated wear and tear over the years, and absolutely a reason that running quarterbacks either transition to pocket passers or fade out of the league by age 31. Better to just start where you're gonna finish IMHO. And that's without all the new concerns about concussions which a running QB is *absolutely* at much greater risk for.

It's unclear to me what a running quarterback means to you. Cam Newton isn't a running quarterback. He's a pocket passer who can run, not unlike Ben Roethlisberger or Alex Smith. Most of his designed runs are QB draws for short-yardage rather than legitimately big plays like Lamar Jackson. But when I think running quarterback, I think a guy whose first instinct is to pull the ball down and run, which was true of guys like Tim Tebow but isn't true of Lamar Jackson, who played in a pro-style offense with packages of plays designed to take advantage of his running ability rather than freewheeling spread option system. If there's a knock on Jackson, it's probably that he holds onto the ball too long in the pocket.

I do think you're right that the longevity of guys who run the ball too much is questionable, which is why the Panthers fans I know scream bloody murder for the coaching staff to stop with designed run plays for Newton, but Roethlisberger and Smith and others have been happy to scramble and play outside the pocket and haven't really suffered for it. Tom Brady's missed more games to injury in his career than they have. They protect themselves, but injuries can hit anyone.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

It's unclear to me what a running quarterback means to you. Cam Newton isn't a running quarterback. He's a pocket passer who can run, not unlike Ben Roethlisberger or Alex Smith. Most of his designed runs are QB draws for short-yardage rather than legitimately big plays like Lamar Jackson. But when I think running quarterback, I think a guy whose first instinct is to pull the ball down and run, which was true of guys like Tim Tebow but isn't true of Lamar Jackson, who played in a pro-style offense with packages of plays designed to take advantage of his running ability rather than freewheeling spread option system. If there's a knock on Jackson, it's probably that he holds onto the ball too long in the pocket.

I do think you're right that the longevity of guys who run the ball too much is questionable, which is why the Panthers fans I know scream bloody murder for the coaching staff to stop with designed run plays for Newton, but Roethlisberger and Smith and others have been happy to scramble and play outside the pocket and haven't really suffered for it. Tom Brady's missed more games to injury in his career than they have. They protect themselves, but injuries can hit anyone.

Newton is bigger than Hightower!

 

[Deus Irae]

but Roethlisberger and Smith and others have been happy to scramble and play outside the pocket and haven't really suffered for it.

It seems pretty clear to me that Roethlisberger has suffered for it

 

[Teej]

I watched Jackson destroy BC in 2016 and he was better last year. In only three qtrs he had over 400 total yds and 7 Tds.

I won't complain if they move up for him.

 

[PatsFan2]

I watched Jackson destroy BC in 2016 and he was better last year. In only three qtrs he had over 400 total yds and 7 Tds.

I won't complain if they move up for him.

Can Jackson rush the passer??

 

[Ross12]

I’d be good with Jackson at 23 or a slight trade-up if need be. But it truly feels like they want a QB but don’t want anyone to know who - they’ve been connected to multiple guys. Then add in Manziel wearing Pats apparel and I have no idea what they’re gonna do. Which is what BB wants.

 

[Triumph]

Jackson will be a bust in the NFL.

Mobile QBs always want to run to create plays. You can get away with it in college, but not in the NFL.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

It's unclear to me what a running quarterback means to you. Cam Newton isn't a running quarterback. He's a pocket passer who can run, not unlike Ben Roethlisberger or Alex Smith. Most of his designed runs are QB draws for short-yardage rather than legitimately big plays like Lamar Jackson. But when I think running quarterback, I think a guy whose first instinct is to pull the ball down and run, which was true of guys like Tim Tebow but isn't true of Lamar Jackson, who played in a pro-style offense with packages of plays designed to take advantage of his running ability rather than freewheeling spread option system. If there's a knock on Jackson, it's probably that he holds onto the ball too long in the pocket.

I do think you're right that the longevity of guys who run the ball too much is questionable, which is why the Panthers fans I know scream bloody murder for the coaching staff to stop with designed run plays for Newton, but Roethlisberger and Smith and others have been happy to scramble and play outside the pocket and haven't really suffered for it. Tom Brady's missed more games to injury in his career than they have. They protect themselves, but injuries can hit anyone.

Very soon the NFL will be mostly duel threats at a young age that taper off around years 3-4 and eventually become a passer who can run. Also theres been studies on this and theers no evidence to show that "running QBs" get hurt more.

Jackson is and has always been a pass 1st & 2nd guy which is extremely rare at his age. He just needs a tune-up in a few areas which are very fixable. Patriots fans would be extremely lucky to land him. Like franchise to franchise QB lucky which doesn't happen often if at all. It would scary with our leadership group.

 

[Simpelton]

It's unclear to me what a running quarterback means to you. Cam Newton isn't a running quarterback. He's a pocket passer who can run, not unlike Ben Roethlisberger or Alex Smith. Most of his designed runs are QB draws for short-yardage rather than legitimately big plays like Lamar Jackson. But when I think running quarterback, I think a guy whose first instinct is to pull the ball down and run, which was true of guys like Tim Tebow but isn't true of Lamar Jackson, who played in a pro-style offense with packages of plays designed to take advantage of his running ability rather than freewheeling spread option system. If there's a knock on Jackson, it's probably that he holds onto the ball too long in the pocket.

I do think you're right that the longevity of guys who run the ball too much is questionable, which is why the Panthers fans I know scream bloody murder for the coaching staff to stop with designed run plays for Newton, but Roethlisberger and Smith and others have been happy to scramble and play outside the pocket and haven't really suffered for it. Tom Brady's missed more games to injury in his career than they have. They protect themselves, but injuries can hit anyone.

A handful of outliers does not change the fact that it's quarterbacks who make plays in the pocket 99% of the time, that are the quarterbacks most likely to still be playing in their late 30s. I would rather take on a relatively unathletic quarterback that has to master the art of pocket passing to succeed, than a guy with "options" to run the ball, including the option to get badly injured doing it.

The list of guys who have a consistent running element to their game and make a long NFL career is a lot shorter than the list of guys like Brady, Brees, Rivers, Cousins, Favre, etc who whaver you think of their actual skill level, are durable, reliable presences in the pocket first and foremost. Even mediocre pocket passers like Fitzpatrick and McCown serve to illustrate the point. They're still playing, while more athletic options that OCs feel free to take risks with, have taken those risks and found themselves on the the IR as a result.

At the end of the day I feel like it's the difference between versatility and specialization. I feel that quarterback is a very specialized position centered around passing from the pocket. Anything that deviates from that mission in the name of versatility and "options" serves to water down the development of the central pillar of the offensive game. I would rather have a guy who focused on becoming great at passing, than a guy who was also focusing on his running game at the expense (since there's only so many hours in a practice session) of the pass game.