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Rapoport: Patriots quietly bring in Lamar Jackson for Pre Draft Visit


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You're not even listening, much less responding to what I'm saying. I'm not saying that a running QB can't be successful. What I'm saying is that a QB who part of his job is to augment the running game is more volatile as an investment. Riskier. There is more that can go wrong, and a guy who part of his job is to run into the line, is going to suffer increased wear and tear compared to a pocket passer

There is a reason that the only old QB are pocket passing QB, or former runners who transitioned into pocket passers as they accumulated wear and tear and slowed down.

Did you understand this time? I mean I can keep saying this until the penny drops if I have to. I'm not saying pocket passers are better per se, I'm saying they are safer investments.

But Lamar Jackson is 21, not 30. You have no idea what he'll be at 30. In any case, quarterbacks tend to get hurt in the pocket, not in situations where they scramble. It's the helmet you don't see that gets you. I think the probability that Jackson busts is higher than that of some other quarterbacks in the draft, particularly Rosen, but not dissimilar to Darnold and lower than Allen. And the advantage to Jackson is, if he demonstrates no ability to play quarterback at a high level in the NFL for whatever reason, you can use him as a sub-package player because of his out of this world athleticism.
 
Do they? Philly Brown's out of the league, wildly overrated Kelvin Benjamin did nothing of note after being traded, and Ted Ginn and Brandon LaFell are the same players they've always been. Aside from LaFell, who had one magical year with Brady and then went back to being a big receiver with bad hands, none of these guys have been more successful after leaving Carolina.

Jimmy Smith, DeAngelo Williams......A great QB makes the players around him better.
 
I have no idea what he'll be at 30, but I do know that if one of his primary roles is to try to run between the tackles, he won't be as healthy as an equally talented guy who specializes in pocket passing.
 
But Lamar Jackson is 21, not 30. You have no idea what he'll be at 30. In any case, quarterbacks tend to get hurt in the pocket, not in situations where they scramble. It's the helmet you don't see that gets you.


there's 2 aspects to this......one is loving to be spoiled year after year that I get to watch my team until february

the other is the fun to watch category.......I love guys like russell wilson, I though kaepernick at his prime was fun.....desean watson (sp), same thing .... those guys are a hoot to watch

I'm just not locked in on having my team look the same until the end of time......I'm excited for the next phase
 
I have no idea what he'll be at 30, but I do know that if one of his primary roles is to try to run between the tackles, he won't be as healthy as an equally talented guy who specializes in pocket passing.

If Jackson comes here, he would have 1-2 years to learn how to truly be a pocket passer.
 
Jimmy Smith, DeAngelo Williams......A great QB makes the players around him better.

DeAngelo Williams was nearing 30 when Newton entered the league. Smith was great with Newton, but he only played three years there and the team stupidly let him walk. Newton's MVP year was with Greg Olsen and then Ted Ginn and Philly Brown; he went 11-5 this year with Devin Funchess and Russell Shepard. It's weird people will give Brady credit for having great seasons with the likes of Reche Caldwell but won't seem to extend the same courtesy to Cam. His supporting casts since 2014 have been pretty bad, and I don't think Tom Brady would have won an MVP or gone to a Super Bowl with Devin Funchess and Russell Shepard.
 
Bottom line, I want a guy who specilaizes in doing the most important part of a quarterback's job and is drafted to do that thing. I am not interested in versatility in a job that is one of the most specialized positions in all of professional sports. The ability to roll out of the pocket is a useful luxury if your offensive line is weak, but if your line can't protect the passer, quarterback is not your biggest problem.

Basically I want them to grab the best, most accurate, most catchable passer they can. That's what fell into their laps when they drafted Brady, and it's a huge part of our success. I don't care if a guy can run. I don't want the quarterback to be running as anything more than the occasional gadget or ambush play.

The main job of a quarterback is what he does in the pocket. He's not a running back, he's a quarterback. Tom Brady demonstrates just how irrelevant running ability is to a quarterback as long as he can make good passes in the pocket.

If a QB can make a pass, is accurate, and doesn't overthrow everything so hard it bounces off his receivers' hands *coughBledsoecough* that's the guy I'm interested in.
 
If Jackson comes here, he would have 1-2 years to learn how to truly be a pocket passer.
And that's what I'm afraid of. He's a guy who's dazzling based on raw tools who doesn't actually know how to do the thing that's 95% of a quarterback's job. I mean if we draft him I'm sure as hell going to hope he develops, but what I want is a guy who can already pass from the pocket, not a guy who we close our eyes, cross every appendage in our body and HOPE he can EVENTUALLY LEARN how to do the single most fundamental part of his job.
 
Having a quarterback that's a threat to run requires defenses to adjust for that, which makes it easier to be successful throwing the ball. That's why the Patriots historically have given up some big passing games to scramblers. Belichick has his rushers set the edge to avoid letting the quarterback outside the pocket rather than push the pocket towards them, so the quarterback gets all day to throw. If the quarterback's a proficient passer, he usually can pick apart a conservative defense of that sort. Look at Deshaun Watson or Cam's games against the Patriots last season.
 
And that's what I'm afraid of. He's a guy who's dazzling based on raw tools who doesn't actually know how to do the thing that's 95% of a quarterback's job. I mean if we draft him I'm sure as hell going to hope he develops, but what I want is a guy who can already pass from the pocket, not a guy who we close our eyes, cross every appendage in our body and HOPE he can EVENTUALLY LEARN how to do the single most fundamental part of his job.

I don't really understand what you're saying here. Jackson's snaps at Louisville came from under center in a pro-style, Erhardt-Perkins offensive scheme. He wasn't running a triple option or wishbone or something. He knows how to pass from the pocket;, he did it in college. He's more accustomed to a pro-style passing offense than guys who exclusively ran the ubiquitous spread option scheme in college like Baker Mayfield. Most of his rushing yards came on designed plays that took advantage of his unique speed and athletic ability. He wasn't a one-read and run guy. I'm not sure you've actually watched him play or read anything about Lamar Jackson other than looking at his statline.
 
First, I will agree. I do think that I am speculating that on the Patriots, with the best coaching staff in the league that Cam would be a more consistent and better player with better mechanics and a better understanding of offensive schemes and reading defenses. I acknowledge that I may just have rose colored glasses on with this belief.

I don't think Cam would run the "same" offense as Brady, just like Jimmy G ran a slightly different offense. The plays are tailored to the QBs strength to some extent. Brady picks his favorite plays from the extensive playbook, just as Cam would.

Yes, I think if Cam is not doing the things he needs to do to show improvement, he should be benched until he faulking gets it....

In my belief, Cam has gotten by on pure athletic ability and talent. He has not shown much improvement in touch passes or reading defenses.
But at what point do you recognize he just doesn’t have those skills? Reading a defense,decision making, and throwing accuracy are just as much a skillet as running and jumping. You can’t just acquire high level those skills just because you want to no more than you can acquire high level running and jumping skills.
 
Do they? Philly Brown's out of the league, wildly overrated Kelvin Benjamin did nothing of note after being traded, and Ted Ginn and Brandon LaFell are the same players they've always been. Aside from LaFell, who had one magical year with Brady and then went back to being a big receiver with bad hands, none of these guys have been more successful after leaving Carolina.
Benjamin got hurt and the bills clearly wanted him.
Ginn is wr2 in no.
Lafell helped us win a Sb.
 
And that's what I'm afraid of. He's a guy who's dazzling based on raw tools who doesn't actually know how to do the thing that's 95% of a quarterback's job. I mean if we draft him I'm sure as hell going to hope he develops, but what I want is a guy who can already pass from the pocket, not a guy who we close our eyes, cross every appendage in our body and HOPE he can EVENTUALLY LEARN how to do the single most fundamental part of his job.

I don't really care who the Patriots draft as the QB, I know nothing about college football and have not evaluated any players. I put my trust in the Patriots coaching staff to make the right decisions. If the Patriots draft Jackson, they must believe he can do what they need him to do to be successful in the Patriots offense.
 
I think he has had good talent around him. All teams have to deal with injuries. The good ones overcome.
And a very good defense supporting him.
 
But at what point do you recognize he just doesn’t have those skills? Reading a defense,decision making, and throwing accuracy are just as much a skillet as running and jumping. You can’t just acquire high level those skills just because you want to no more than you can acquire high level running and jumping skills.

They are skills developed by spending obscene amounts of time working on mechanics and practice.
 
I don't really understand what you're saying here. Jackson's snaps at Louisville came from under center in a pro-style, Erhardt-Perkins offensive scheme. He wasn't running a triple option or wishbone or something. He knows how to pass from the pocket;, he did it in college. He's more accustomed to a pro-style passing offense than guys who exclusively ran the ubiquitous spread option scheme in college like Baker Mayfield. Most of his rushing yards came on designed plays that took advantage of his unique speed and athletic ability. He wasn't a one-read and run guy. I'm not sure you've actually watched him play or read anything about Lamar Jackson other than looking at his statline.

It's not so much about Lamar Jackson per se. I honestly feel like when it comes to quarterbacks, speed is almost a red herring -- not quite, but almost. Call it a prejudice. I've just never felt like I've seen a quarterback play at the pro or quasipro (NCAA) level, where I looked at the guy and said "yep, you were hurt by a lack of speed."

That can mean that a really athletic, quick quarterback can be a bit of a luxury, but it's a luxury that's a two edged sword.

First of all because those guys tend to be expensive, and as I consider speed a luxury, that leads to me concluding that expensive luxuries are a problem in a cap universe.

Secondly the more you design offenses to take advantage of a quarterback's ability to run and deke, the more you're going away from the bread and butter of NFL offenses. It leads to exciting plays, but goes away from fundamental plays. The primary consideration for any quarterback is how well he puts the ball in his receivers' hands. If we draft a QB high this year, I'll want it to be primarily on his ability to do that, and with speed as a tertiary concern at best.

In my opinion if you're in a position where you have to ask your quarterback to run around a lot, you should be asking some hard questions of the offensive line. Fran the Man Tarkenton was fun to watch, but he did what he did because he had very little protection in front of him, not because he wanted to. It was great that he was able to get away with it, but would have been even better if he hadn't had to.

I actually feel better to hear that Jackson in particular played in an offense that focused on the pocket, and only sprung his speed as an ambush play. That's how it should be done. But I still want first and foremost a polished passer. If he also has speed, cool beans. Drafting a runner in the hopes that he develops a pass game evokes images of Tim Tebow for me, and I don't want that for an heir apparent.
 
Having a quarterback that's a threat to run requires defenses to adjust for that, which makes it easier to be successful throwing the ball. That's why the Patriots historically have given up some big passing games to scramblers. Belichick has his rushers set the edge to avoid letting the quarterback outside the pocket rather than push the pocket towards them, so the quarterback gets all day to throw. If the quarterback's a proficient passer, he usually can pick apart a conservative defense of that sort. Look at Deshaun Watson or Cam's games against the Patriots last season.
Being able to run in addition to having the vital QB skills is a plus. But if you don’t have the basics running to make up for it doesn’t work. If it’s easier for a running qb like cam to throw why does he struggle so much to throw?
 
I don't really care who the Patriots draft as the QB, I know nothing about college football and have not evaluated any players. I put my trust in the Patriots coaching staff to make the right decisions. If the Patriots draft Jackson, they must believe he can do what they need him to do to be successful in the Patriots offense.
I can't quite be that fatalistic. I feel like there's a lot riding on the team managing to nail this pick and find our QBOTF in this draft. I really want to see them focusing on a fundamentally strong pocket passer type rather than a jack of all trades. But that's just me.
 
Being able to run in addition to having the vital QB skills is a plus. But if you don’t have the basics running to make up for it doesn’t work. If it’s easier for a running qb like cam to throw why does he struggle so much to throw?

He doesn't, nitwit.
 
They are skills developed by spending obscene amounts of time working on mechanics and practice.
I think that disses the players who have them.
As if saying newton has skills that no one else has, but Brady has skills that anyone could if they wanted to.
Newton will never be Brady any more than Brady would ever be newton.
 
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