Patriots Not Expected to Be in the Mix for Lamar Jackson

[mike_usagisan]

Daniel Jones deal is essentially a two year deal. You can get out of most of these contracts after a short time, most of the time.

It's a 2-4 year league. Not 5-10 and most contracts reflect that.

Also and again youre gambling on someone and they could get hurt just as easily as the next guy. There's nothing to suggest "running QB's" get hurt more and Jackson has been hurt in the pocket. Not enough to scare me from a top 3 QB when he's peaking and top 10-12 on his worst day.

Right, but Lamar has said he wants a long-term, full-guaranteed deal. If he won't sign a two-year or effectively two-year deal, then what's the point of signing him? I can see it both ways, but I think Lamar's own negotiating is the big problem with him having a contract from the Ravens or another team.

 

[lancerman]

Daniel Jones deal is essentially a two year deal. You can get out of most of these contracts after a short time, most of the time.

It's a 2-4 year league. Not 5-10 and most contracts reflect that.

Also and again youre gambling on someone and they could get hurt just as easily as the next guy. There's nothing to suggest "running QB's" get hurt more and Jackson has been hurt in the pocket. Not enough to scare me from a top 3 QB when he's peaking and top 10-12 on his worst day.

Yup. If you have no other option at QB, giving Daniel Jones a two year contract is fine for decent money. Either he proves last year wasn't a fluke or you go get his replacement the following season and phase the new kid in as you phase Jones out. It was the correct play for the Giants.

 

[Kasmir]

So he's been hurt twice working in the pocket. It's not like he's got hurt running the ball. He's definitely taking some shots but Jesus has anyone watched Burrow or Allen and the hits they've taken?? It's football, players get hurt as we've seen with our own QB.

Most of the people pointing to his injuries are the same ones who thought he would suck. The same ones who said he'll never be good and haven't come off that stance they've had since the draft.

The guy didn't have any injuries coming into the league. Avoids hits as well as any player in the league and is only 26. I'm not passing on a great player bc he might get hurt. It's football. That type of thinking would get laughed out the room in an NFL room where half the players are hurt all the time. It's just the reality of the game.


One problem is too many are thinking about "long term" when that's just

The incidence of injuries is not the issue. It's the effect. Look at Mahomes vs Lamar in 2022. A QB in the pocket can be limping and still be very effective passing. The same leg or back injury that a QB can play through in the passing game can completely erase him as an elite runner. Yes RB's get injured and play through their injuries. That's why they have such short careers, especially compared to QB's. Lamar's running will degrade long before his passing. All NFL QB's need to be competent at your much derided "pocket QB" skills or they end up out of the league after a short career.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Right, but Lamar has said he wants a long-term, full-guaranteed deal. If he won't sign a two-year or effectively two-year deal, then what's the point of signing him? I can see it both ways, but I think Lamar's own negotiating is the big problem with him having a contract from the Ravens or another team.

Well we don't know what "long term" is and if I'm him I'm playing hardball with the Ravens considering they've f'd up when it was easy to build around him. I'm juicing them as much as I can. It's his biggest contract and they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt at this point when it comes to cap relief.

It might be different for another team and he's going to have to give in as well.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Well we don't know what "long term" is and if I'm him I'm playing hardball with the Ravens considering they've f'd up when it was easy to build around him. I'm juicing them as much as I can. It's his biggest contract and they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt at this point when it comes to cap relief.

It might be different for another team and he's going to have to give in as well.

Right, but when he doesn’t have an agent and is using his mom’s services, I think he’s shooting himself in the foot on how to figure some of that out either with the Ravens or with another team.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

The incidence of injuries is not the issue. It's the effect. Look at Mahomes vs Lamar in 2022. A QB in the pocket can be limping and still be very effective passing. The same leg or back injury that a QB can play through in the passing game can completely erase him as an elite runner.

Different injuries, players and Mahomes already signed his enormous deal.

This thread was shut down put ill address this post here.

Michael Vick and Cam Newton say hi.
No idea what these two names are supposed to mean but Jackson is a better passer than both and again there's no data no prove "running QB's" get hurt more. This is well known actually. Old news.

You keep making this claim that pocket QB's are dead by basically defining every pocket QB away. Burrow, Lawrence, Allen, and Herbert are great young passers who don't need to run to set up their passing.

Mahomes is a unicorn and will IMO surpass Brady if he stays healthy. His scrambling helps him but he's not a runner and will remain great even with injury as we've already seen. Lamar Jackson is already wearing down as we're also seeing.

Pocket passers win out in they NFL because they can play forever. Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Herbert and Lawrence will all be playing great in 10 years as "pocket passers". Those are the QB's that you can build a team around for the long term.

I'm sorry but you have no idea what a "pocket passer" is. So I'm not sure how productive this will get. A classic "pocket passer" is someone who can drop straight back without a good running game, PA, schemed touches etc. When scouts evaluate tackles the most important reps for pass pro are straight dropbacks. Nothing to manipulate or throw off a defense. Essentially 1 on 1.

It's more than obvious you need to be a good passer to win in this league. Most of these guys are either Freaks like Mahomes and Allen. Neither which are "pocket passers" or close to it. Most QB's today are completely dependent on scheme, running game/misdirection. Guys like Goff, Baker, Mac/Daniel Jones, Tua, Murray, Tannehill, Hurts, Mariota, Lance, and even Lawrence ran a very simplistic scheme. I mean look at most of the high picks. Most come into the league running a specific scheme. Theyre packaged and less able to crave you up with their mind and arm but theyre more athletic and given the right system. They can make it work. Theyre not guys who are going to just drop back and beat you. Look what happens to most of them when they're forced to perform without all those bells and whistles.

There's very few classic pocket passers anymore. It's just a different position.

 

[Hyped]

File this under, “No $h!t, Sherlock”….

 

[crawhammer]

Lamar brings out the extreme points of view. Part of it relates to the Patriots having passed on Lamar twice in the draft. Those that typically defend BB will typically be overly critical of Lamar (an actually NFL MVP). Also those who have an aversion to running quarterbacks because "they can't throw" or "they can't stay healthy" like to belittle Lamar.

There's no disputing it, when healthy he's a lethal football player, especially factoring in his all-time elite running ability. He's had issues with accuracy but again he won an MVP at the quarterback position and he has a career 6.1 TD% which ranks 10th all-time and he's 3rd among active players (marginally behind only Mahomes and Rodgers).

In a heartbeat I will take Lamar over Mac. And it would be worth whatever the Patriots have to give up to make it happen.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Ravens do NOT taste like chicken...

 

[Kasmir]

Different injuries, players and Mahomes already signed his enormous deal.

This thread was shut down put ill address this post here.

Michael Vick and Cam Newton say hi.
No idea what these two names are supposed to mean but Jackson is a better passer than both and again there's no data no prove "running QB's" get hurt more. This is well known actually. Old news.

You keep making this claim that pocket QB's are dead by basically defining every pocket QB away. Burrow, Lawrence, Allen, and Herbert are great young passers who don't need to run to set up their passing.

Mahomes is a unicorn and will IMO surpass Brady if he stays healthy. His scrambling helps him but he's not a runner and will remain great even with injury as we've already seen. Lamar Jackson is already wearing down as we're also seeing.

Pocket passers win out in they NFL because they can play forever. Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Herbert and Lawrence will all be playing great in 10 years as "pocket passers". Those are the QB's that you can build a team around for the long term.

I'm sorry but you have no idea what a "pocket passer" is. So I'm not sure how productive this will get. A classic "pocket passer" is someone who can drop straight back without a good running game, PA, schemed touches etc. When scouts evaluate tackles the most important reps for pass pro are straight dropbacks. Nothing to manipulate or throw off a defense. Essentially 1 on 1.

It's more than obvious you need to be a good passer to win in this league. Most of these guys are either Freaks like Mahomes and Allen. Neither which are "pocket passers" or close to it. Most QB's today are completely dependent on scheme, running game/misdirection. Guys like Goff, Baker, Mac/Daniel Jones, Tua, Murray, Tannehill, Hurts, Mariota, Lance, and even Lawrence ran a very simplistic scheme. I mean look at most of the high picks. Most come into the league running a specific scheme. Theyre packaged and less able to crave you up with their mind and arm but theyre more athletic and given the right system. They can make it work. Theyre not guys who are going to just drop back and beat you. Look what happens to most of them when they're forced to perform without all those bells and whistles.

There's very few classic pocket passers anymore. It's just a different position.

This has become a pointless argument; I certainly am not impressed by you arguing from personal authority. I get that you are circulating a popular meme, but I just don't buy it. You have defined "pocket passer" down into something that isn't recognizable to me. Other than Mac Jones, who are the "pocket passers" past and present who are now obsolete in your view?

I absolutely agree that a healthy Lamar Jackson is a tremendous QB because of the immense pressure he puts on a defense. My issue is just that I'm not convinced he'll be able to stay healthy and keep up the rushing part of his act enough to justify building a team around him, let alone guaranteeing him $40mm/yr.

I still think that if Cam Newton and Lamar Jackson were coming out if school today, Cam would still go at or near the top of the draft and Lamar would go mid to late 1st round. Cam is just so much bigger than Lamar and just as athletic -- Cam had a 10.0 RAS, for instance, while Lamar was never fully tested. Cam could be the prototype of the dual threat QB -- and he too was an NFL MVP.

 

[Kasmir]

A further thought about the NFL and dual threat QB's:

We saw that both Cam and Lamar were able to perform at an MVP level not long after entering the NFL because of the tremendous and immediate pressure an elite 11 on 11 offense can put on defenses.

Perhaps the strategy of a team like the Ravens is to build a team around that kind of QB on their first contract when their overall skills are at their peak, with a plan to build a pipeline of fresh replacements from the college ranks so you can let them go after their first contract both to save money and to avoid the risk of their running skills degrading. Sort of similar to a college recruiting replenishment pipeline.

If that's what the Ravens are doing we'll see if they draft or acquire a dual threat QB to potentially replace Lamar.

There's a synergy between the idea of "win now" on the cheap first contract and drafting a great dual-threat QB. I will concede that that strategy works best with a dual threat QB because a pocket-only QB can take years to develop the skills to surpass a dual threat QB who comes into the league with enough passing competency to run an 11 on 11 attack successfully.

So maybe that's what's going on.

 

[patfanken]

Lamar brings out the extreme points of view. Part of it relates to the Patriots having passed on Lamar twice in the draft. Those that typically defend BB will typically be overly critical of Lamar (an actually NFL MVP). Also those who have an aversion to running quarterbacks because "they can't throw" or "they can't stay healthy" like to belittle Lamar.

There's no disputing it, when healthy he's a lethal football player, especially factoring in his all-time elite running ability. He's had issues with accuracy but again he won an MVP at the quarterback position and he has a career 6.1 TD% which ranks 10th all-time and he's 3rd among active players (marginally behind only Mahomes and Rodgers).

In a heartbeat I will take Lamar over Mac. And it would be worth whatever the Patriots have to give up to make it happen.

The key aspect about this controversy is easy and can be summed up in 3 words. 'Guaranteed contract' and 'availability'.

I really don't think the AMOUNT of money is in question. It's the demand of the fully guaranteed contract that's the issue. What owner would give a guy who has missed the better part of 30% of the snaps the last 2 years, and worst yet hasn't made it to December or January in those years. That is the MOST important time of the year. IIRC - He has played 5 seasons and in 3 of them he missed significant time where he has missed 5 or more games/ (he DID have 2 seasons where he missed only 1 game)

I'm usually on the players side in most issues with the league, but not on THIS one. Long term guaranteed contracts just wouldn't work playing a game where you are going to lose at least ONE player a week to an injury. It's a no win situation for the union. They would be better off demanding larger rosters and PS's instead of catering to the small number of elite players by demanding guaranteed contracts and losing the franchise tag. THOSE guys are going to get paid in the end anyway. BUT by making rosters bigger, allowing all 53 players to suit up on game day, and increasing rosters say by 3-5 more guys the union will start representing the lower and middle class of NFL rosters. instead of focusing on how to the get the rich,richer. (kind of like our own economy)

 

[Triumph]

Lamar is better than Mac Jones. Whoopy ding.

At least you aren't comparing Lamar to Dan Marino. That comparison was downright laughable.

Jackson sucks. SACK Jones does too

Bmore or any team stooped enough to pay him won't win **** with a,QB who thinka he is a RB

 

[RobertWeathers]

There's a synergy between the idea of "win now" on the cheap first contract and drafting a great dual-threat QB. I will concede that that strategy works best with a dual threat QB because a pocket-only QB can take years to develop the skills to surpass a dual threat QB who comes into the league with enough passing competency to run an 11 on 11 attack successfully.

So maybe that's what's going on.

I don't think that's the case.

A QB either gets it or the don't. They can either read a defense, get the ball to a spot on time accurately or they can't. Pocket passer or dual threat. Doesn't matter.

Allen, Mahomes, Burrow, Herbert...even to a. Extent Mac became functional pocket QBs within their 1st 2 years in the league. If a QB doesn't show something in his first 2 years he is highly unlikely to ever show it.

The poster you were debating with has no idea what a pocket QB is or isn't. He makes up his own criteria to fit his crap narrative.

In 2022 Mahomes made 90% of his passes inside the pocket. He is a pocket passer. Period.

 

[Wozzy]

Whoever takes on LJ isn’t just making a financial commitment, they also have to change their offensive system to an option offense and tailor it around his weaknesses as a passer. This is a massive undertaking and commitment by an organization… and for a player who has only made 12 starts in 2021 and 12 seasons in 2022.

The reason it won’t happen here or elsewhere has a lot more to do with just money.

 

[PaulThePat]

Not been following the Jackson story but I can't seem to find many teams falling over themselves to make an offer. Has Jackson overegged his worth? Are teams worried about injuries?

 

[Wozzy]

Lamar brings out the extreme points of view. Part of it relates to the Patriots having passed on Lamar twice in the draft. Those that typically defend BB will typically be overly critical of Lamar (an actually NFL MVP). Also those who have an aversion to running quarterbacks because "they can't throw" or "they can't stay healthy" like to belittle Lamar.

There's no disputing it, when healthy he's a lethal football player, especially factoring in his all-time elite running ability. He's had issues with accuracy but again he won an MVP at the quarterback position and he has a career 6.1 TD% which ranks 10th all-time and he's 3rd among active players (marginally behind only Mahomes and Rodgers).

In a heartbeat I will take Lamar over Mac. And it would be worth whatever the Patriots have to give up to make it happen.

This was written before the 2018 draft, and before BB passed on him twice.

"I think he could "appear" really good, he could look like young Michael Vick... and just like Vick he will be fool's gold. He will win some regular season games, but unless he has the perfect situation around him won't sniff the Super Bowl. You have to be able to pass accurately to beat NFL caliber playoff defenses... passing is important." - Wozzy, Apr 23, 2018

If I was anymore accurate you guys would have to award me a prize... it had nothing to do with protecting Bill. Bill hadn't picked anyone at that point. Besides... nobody is protecting Bill, we're simply pointing out that suggesting the winningest coach in history stumbled and bumbled his way to unprecedented success is an idiotic take. There are no white knights of BB, that's just Brady fanboys projecting. Most of us are critical of BB all the time.

Lamar is not an accurate passer, he can't pass on playoff defenses from the pocket. That's why he has one playoff win in his entire career. He has been the worst player on either team in every playoff loss he's been in. Not to mention the past two seasons, he has only started 12 games apiece... so once his legs are gone, you end up with a non-running QB who can't pass on one of the most bloated contracts in the NFL.

The notion of trading for him and paying him is dumb... it will never happen, nor should it happen. Lamar peaked in 2019 because nobody knew who he was, now teams have film on him and know he can't pass.

 

[Bourne Again Christian]

This was written before the 2018 draft, and before BB passed on him twice.

"I think he could "appear" really good, he could look like young Michael Vick... and just like Vick he will be fool's gold. He will win some regular season games, but unless he has the perfect situation around him won't sniff the Super Bowl. You have to be able to pass accurately to beat NFL caliber playoff defenses... passing is important." - Wozzy, Apr 23, 2018

If I was anymore accurate you guys would have to award me a prize... it had nothing to do with protecting Bill. Bill hadn't picked anyone at that point. Besides... nobody is protecting Bill, we're simply pointing out that suggesting the winningest coach in history stumbled and bumbled his way to unprecedented success is an idiotic take. There are no white knights of BB, that's just Brady fanboys projecting. Most of us are critical of BB all the time.

Lamar is not an accurate passer, he can't pass on playoff defenses from the pocket. That's why he has one playoff win in his entire career. He has been the worst player on either team in every playoff loss he's been in. Not to mention the past two seasons, he has only started 12 games apiece... so once his legs are gone, you end up with a non-running QB who can't pass on one of the most bloated contracts in the NFL.

The notion of trading for him and paying him is dumb... it will never happen, nor should it happen. Lamar peaked in 2019 because nobody knew who he was, now teams have film on him and know he can't pass.

Can’t pass like can’t go thru progressions and deliver the ball or can’t pass like doesn’t have the mechanics to make the throws?

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

Lamar brings out the extreme points of view. Part of it relates to the Patriots having passed on Lamar twice in the draft. Those that typically defend BB will typically be overly critical of Lamar (an actually NFL MVP). Also those who have an aversion to running quarterbacks because "they can't throw" or "they can't stay healthy" like to belittle Lamar.

you just described wozzy

There's no disputing it, when healthy he's a lethal football player, especially factoring in his all-time elite running ability. He's had issues with accuracy but again he won an MVP at the quarterback position and he has a career 6.1 TD% which ranks 10th all-time and he's 3rd among active players (marginally behind only Mahomes and Rodgers).

In a heartbeat I will take Lamar over Mac. And it would be worth whatever the Patriots have to give up to make it happen.

 

[Water Boy]

File this under, “No $h!t, Sherlock”….

The Pats aren’t interested in giving up 2 firsts and paying $50 million guaranteed for 5 years?

Color me shocked.