OT: Steelers ship Santonio to the Jets

[Fencer]

LT is no good, Shone Green is no good, Cromartie sucks, Holmes stinks and will ruin the locker room, Sanchez is horrid - etc - etc

Base case is that some of those guys will be failures and some will succeed.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Do you have a link? Here's a quote from Peter King which I tend to believe. How did they contact 30 other teams in less then 24 hrs?

I read the Steelers called EVERY team including the Pats

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/rap_sheet/?p=6757&srvc=sports&position=recent_bullet

However,they did not call the AFC North teams...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/12/steelers-called-everyone-regarding-santonio-trade/

 

[Ring 6]

No, my rationale states that the players the Jets have picked up have just as much of a chance of doing a good job as they do of failing and all these posters who are trying to discredit all the moves the Jets have made are the same people who were hailing the Pats as brilliant when they were using free agency to stock the team in 2007.

And no, I'm not a Jets fan.

Wouldn't that also mean that they have an equal chance of failing and those touting the moves have no right to do that either?

 

[mgcolby]

Translation - make excuse for Moss

You were a huge fan of Wes Welker before he came to the Pats - prove it. Welker was thought of as a jag by most rival fans prior to joining the Pats. That was my point.

If a guy can catch 67 balls in that offense, imagine what he could do here!

The guy is the ultimate team player and a classic over acheiver. Sounds like a Patriot to me.

I don't know how anyone who has watched him play us twice a year for the past four, could not like this signing? It strenghtens our WR corps and weakens a division rival.

Getting the best FA LB available, not tying up to much money at the TE position and singing a guy who has only been in the league for 4 years at a position of need and giving up a 2nd round pick for him - rather than gamble in the draft is hardly giving up the future. Given the fact that we have two 1st round picks!

with Welker as solid of a number 2 as you can come by - who also has the potential to be a number 1.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/51906-poll-welker-yea-nay.html

Are you going to give me another chance to make you look like the fool that you are?

 

[blackglass3]

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/51906-poll-welker-yea-nay.html

Are you goign to give me another chance to make you look like the fool that you are?

Don't worry, he's doing that all by himself.

 

[mgcolby]

Don't worry, he's doing that all by himself.

Good point.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Steelers ship Santonio to the Jets

You've painted two extremes. I asked what side of the scale you tilt toward? I think this team has many uncertainties/holes that hopefully will be filled over the next several years. I think next year should be viewed with substantial concern.

Which end I tilt towards probably depends upon who you talk to. The rabid homers would probably claim that I'm all doom-n-gloom and the most Chicken of the Littles would say that I'm being overly optimistic. I'd say that I'm more on the positive side of things, because I don't think Belichick will screw this offseason up the way he screwed up last year, and because I think a healthier Brady will be more consistent. I need to see the players brought in, though, because I think this team has a lot of holes:

WR3 (Regardless of what they think of Tate)
TE1
OG (Needn't be a top line starter, but must be starter-capable to step in for Neal)
DE
OLB (At least one quality starter, preferably two)
ILB (McKenzie may be the answer, but they can't rely on that)
CB
P

Those are all need positions, IMO, at one level or another. As the off season goes forward and I see how the team addresses each position, my confidence level in the regime will wane or wax depending upon those moves.


P.S. Getting an actual fullback would help, too.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Re: Steelers ship Santonio to the Jets

Which end I tilt towards probably depends upon who you talk to. The rabid homers would probably claim that I'm all doom-n-gloom and the most Chicken of the Littles would say that I'm being overly optimistic. I'd say that I'm more on the positive side of things, because I don't think Belichick will screw this offseason up the way he screwed up last year, and because I think a healthier Brady will be more consistent. I need to see the players brought in, though, because I think this team has a lot of holes:

WR3 (Regardless of what they think of Tate)
TE1
OG (Needn't be a top line starter, but must be starter-capable to step in for Neal)
DE
OLB (At least one quality starter, preferably two)
ILB (McKenzie may be the answer, but they can't rely on that)
CB
P

Those are all need positions, IMO, at one level or another. As the off season goes forward and I see how the team addresses each position, my confidence level in the regime will wane or wax depending upon those moves.

I think you nailed it on the holes this team needs filled but I find it very hard to believe that these holes can be adequately filled in one offseason and the team be ready to win 12 games or so which is probably what it will take to win the East
I don't think rookies can just come in and fill these holes and the team have success strictly relying on rookies in those positions...I think the teams needs a year or two of getting these new guys to blend in well to a system that some view as complicated,it will take time and probably another year or two of work to get back to the level of Elite

The only way I see this team becoming an immediate SB contender by September is if suddenly they do some fantastic FA wheels and deals and get some vets in here who have a winning attitude and get those holes filled with some experience - We will not win a Super Bowl filling all those holes with rookies or JAGS.

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Steelers ship Santonio to the Jets

WR3 (Regardless of what they think of Tate)
TE1
OG (Needn't be a top line starter, but must be starter-capable to step in for Neal)
DE
OLB (At least one quality starter, preferably two)
ILB (McKenzie may be the answer, but they can't rely on that)
CB
P

Throw in another TE and a developmental QB and I think I'm in complete agreement with you for the draft priorities. The trick is going to be the order. Here is my take:

1: DE - Just because of positional scarcity
2: OLB - Got to be able to rush the QB strong and drop into coverage a little
3: TE1 - Quick separation and reliable hands
4: LB - Jack-of-all trades, inside or outside
5: WR - Has to be able to work outside and deep
6: CB - Formally announce that one of Wilhite/Wheatley won't make the team
7: OG - Developmental type to go along with Orhnberger
8: P - Instant upgrade regardless of who is picked
9: TE3 - Reasonable combination of hands and blocking
10: QB3 - Just because

Given the Pats picks and the depth of the draft at the positions they are looking at, I think there is a very good chance the Pats walk away with a handful of players that significantly contribute in 2010.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Steelers ship Santonio to the Jets

I think you nailed it on the holes this team needs filled but I find it very hard to believe that these holes can be adequately filled in one offseason and the team be ready to win 12 games or so which is probably what it will take to win the East
I don't think rookies can just come in and fill these holes and the team have success strictly relying on rookies in those positions...I think the teams needs a year or two of getting these new guys to blend in well to a system that some view as complicated,it will take time and probably another year or two of work to get back to the level of Elite

The only way I see this team becoming an immediate SB contender by September is if suddenly they do some fantastic FA wheels and deals and get some vets in here who have a winning attitude and get those holes filled with some experience - We will not win a Super Bowl filling all those holes with rookies or JAGS.

Interesting point, but............
Your lynchpin of your argument is that to win a SB we need to get 'top end' FAs to plug any holes we have, and plugging them with rookies or 'solid JAGs" gives us no real chance to win the SB.

My quesiton is this:
How many teams have ever won by adding top end FAs to their team to fill their holes?

Your logic is that rookies will take time to develop, but won't FAs? Isn't it troublesome to your approach to know that no player signed as an UFA has gone on to make a probowl (I am not 100% positive that fact is correct, but I have heard it numerous times)
Top end FAs historically underachieve.

My take is that we have easily enough strengths to compete for a SB, but also have some liabilities. Teams that win SBs are typically the ones that turn liabilities into adequate or average (either by adding players or improving the ones they have) not ones that add more 'stars'.
I think if you go back and look at SB Champs over the last 10 years or so, you will find:
-Many teams that did not have a lot of turnover on their rosters and improved from within
-Many teams that got large contributions from rookies
-Teams with a number of JAGS playing key roles, in fact, being part of the upgrade of their liabilities.
-Teams better described as 'bad at nothing' than 'good at everything'
-I don't think you will find many, if any, teams that won SBs after big FA signing sprees.

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Steelers ship Santonio to the Jets

We will not win a Super Bowl filling all those holes with rookies or JAGS.

Crable, Wheatley, Tate, McKenzie, Richard, Ohrnberger, Bussey
Chung, Butler, Brace, Edelman, Pryor, Vollmer
Mayo, Guyton, Maroney

16 players. All have either a) Not had their chance yet, b) Just had limited playing time or c) Not reached physical/mental peak yet (25yo or younger). Some of these will wash out but it would take an extreme pessimist to think that half of them won't take a major step forward in development and production this year.

If these guys all stagnate or crash-n-burn, the Pats are indeed in trouble. But you could say that about every team. Assuming every other team has a normal or accelerated development timeline with their youngsters and the Pats have an unprecedented flame-out rate with theirs...well you might want to think about that before heading out on the ledge.

 

[mgcolby]

Re: Steelers ship Santonio to the Jets

Crable, Wheatley, Tate, McKenzie, Richard, Ohrnberger, Bussey
Chung, Butler, Brace, Edelman, Pryor, Vollmer
Mayo, Guyton, Maroney

16 players. All have either a) Not had their chance yet, b) Just had limited playing time or c) Not reached physical/mental peak yet (25yo or younger). Some of these will wash out but it would take an extreme pessimist to think that half of them won't take a major step forward in development and production this year.

If these guys all stagnate or crash-n-burn, the Pats are indeed in trouble. But you could say that about every team. Assuming every other team has a normal or accelerated development timeline with their youngsters and the Pats have an unprecedented flame-out rate with theirs...well you might want to think about that before heading out on the ledge.

I thought only the Jets rookies can get better in year two?

 

[WhiZa]

I guess now the steelers are going to take a WR in the 1st round.

Being that the schedule hasn't come out yet is it safe to say that we won't play the Jets in the first 4 weeks?

Lastly, if Holmes has a bad year (which is quite possible with Sanchez throwing to him) it will make Pats fans a lot happier about the Chad Jackson selection

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Re: Steelers ship Santonio to the Jets

Interesting point, but............
Your lynchpin of your argument is that to win a SB we need to get 'top end' FAs to plug any holes we have, and plugging them with rookies or 'solid JAGs" gives us no real chance to win the SB.

My quesiton is this:
How many teams have ever won by adding top end FAs to their team to fill their holes?

Your logic is that rookies will take time to develop, but won't FAs? Isn't it troublesome to your approach to know that no player signed as an UFA has gone on to make a probowl (I am not 100% positive that fact is correct, but I have heard it numerous times)
Top end FAs historically underachieve.

My take is that we have easily enough strengths to compete for a SB, but also have some liabilities. Teams that win SBs are typically the ones that turn liabilities into adequate or average (either by adding players or improving the ones they have) not ones that add more 'stars'.
I think if you go back and look at SB Champs over the last 10 years or so, you will find:
-Many teams that did not have a lot of turnover on their rosters and improved from within
-Many teams that got large contributions from rookies
-Teams with a number of JAGS playing key roles, in fact, being part of the upgrade of their liabilities.
-Teams better described as 'bad at nothing' than 'good at everything'
-I don't think you will find many, if any, teams that won SBs after big FA signing sprees.

No one said we had to be like the Jets and sign big name free agents but finding FAs who adapt to this team instantly like Phifer,Hamilton,Washington and Dillon are not so easy to find anymore,especially this season which was dominated by good players who had RFA tags
...GMs are getting wiser to what it takes to make a team better and the more competition out there to find those players the tougher it is to have them on your team,thats why the NFL is going to continue to have no dominating teams like the Pats of 2003 and just a lot of good and bad teams mixed.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Re: Steelers ship Santonio to the Jets

Crable, Wheatley, Tate, McKenzie, Richard, Ohrnberger, Bussey
Chung, Butler, Brace, Edelman, Pryor, Vollmer
Mayo, Guyton, Maroney

16 players. All have either a) Not had their chance yet, b) Just had limited playing time or c) Not reached physical/mental peak yet (25yo or younger). Some of these will wash out but it would take an extreme pessimist to think that half of them won't take a major step forward in development and production this year.

If these guys all stagnate or crash-n-burn, the Pats are indeed in trouble. But you could say that about every team. Assuming every other team has a normal or accelerated development timeline with their youngsters and the Pats have an unprecedented flame-out rate with theirs...well you might want to think about that before heading out on the ledge.

I am not heading out to any ledge but I think even if a few of those guys you mentioned develops,it will still take some time for team chemistry to show.

If it has to take the Pats a lean year or two to get back to the level of the 2001-2004 era then so be it,I am a patient man unlike some here who expect a SB title every season. - I just hope we can get a #6 seed this year,that is as high as my expectations are at this point and just let the rest of the year take its course

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Steelers ship Santonio to the Jets

I thought only the Jets rookies can get better in year two?

Even better...does anyone realize that Shonn Greene is only 6 months younger than Maroney? They should have been in the same graduating class. Yet Greene is going to make a monumental leap in development while Maroney is done. Those 6 months must have been a killer for Maroney!

As for Maroney's fumbling issues last year (all of which occurred because he was hitting the holes harder and trying to maximize yards... re: no dancing), I wonder how many fumbles Greene had in about 90 fewer touches? Hmmmmm...

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Steelers ship Santonio to the Jets

I am not heading out to any ledge but I think even if a few of those guys you mentioned develops,it will still take some time for team chemistry to show.

That's fine. Just be consistent in your evaluation of the other teams. For example, know what Cromartie, LdT and Holmes all have in common? The Jets got them cheap because they were poison for team chemistry. Yet they will be fine with no established leadership in the locker room (just ask Jones, Rhodes and Washington) and a hyperactive head coach in the top media market in the world. Similar stories for the Fins, Bills, Chargers, Steelers, etc.

If it has to take the Pats a lean year or two to get back to the level of the 2001-2004 era then so be it,I am a patient man unlike some here who expect a SB title every season. - I just hope we can get a #6 seed this year,that is as high as my expectations are at this point and just let the rest of the year take its course

Lower expectations are fine. Pats haven't had that in April since 2001.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Re: Steelers ship Santonio to the Jets

That's fine. Just be consistent in your evaluation of the other teams. For example, know what Cromartie, LdT and Holmes all have in common? The Jets got them cheap because they were poison for team chemistry. Yet they will be fine with no established leadership in the locker room (just ask Jones, Rhodes and Washington) and a hyperactive head coach in the top media market in the world. Similar stories for the Fins, Bills, Chargers, Steelers, etc.



Lower expectations are fine. Pats haven't had that in April since 2001.

The key to the Jets is being overlooked I think...its not the flashy signings of Ldt and Holmes but its that defense who was scary good at times as the season progressed,If that defense stays similar or gets better, those new players on offense only have to be semi productive to keep them in games.

Despite what some think,defense is what wins big games and championships,not high flying offenses.

The Giants of 2007,the Bucs of 2002 and the Ravens of 2000 had offenses along for the ride for much of those seasons,all they had to do was limit mistakes like turnovers and INTs and let the defense do its job.

 

[DW Toys]

I think the Steelers wanted him to go to the Jets rather than the Pats, Colts, Dolphins, Ravens, etc. That and a 4 game suspension is why the Jests bailed him out for a 5th. I do believe that the Jests are a better team than the Pats at this time. Don't know WTF the Pats staff has up their sleeve as far a team improvement but they ain't done nuthin yet other than the Wilfork resigning.

Cousin, there is truth to your post. If some of those players we would have picked up they would have been solid moves on this site. When the Jets et. al take them there are thousands of reasons why we didn't and how smart were the Pats for not pulling the trigger and how stupid the other Team was. Horse crap!

Yes I believe in BB. For some reason he has been slow on the trigger and lost a player like a Boldin (definite miss so please do not sugar coat it or you are in fact, a homer) Wembley etc. and perhaps there is a touch of arrogance in not being aggressive rather than to change with the times and at the least investigate some not "the Patriot Way" opportunities to make your Team better. Has he bit off more than he can chew with all the hats he is wearing? Would Pioli have challenged BB to make that Boldin deal? Does he still have the training wheels on Nick Cesario?

Yes I would like to see a great Draft. How many times have I said to the Cousins out there do not get your hopes up that one stupid 2010 Draft, great talent or not, is going to remake the 2009 Pats Team into a markedly better version in 2010. I don't get it. We are talking at the outside (if we hit a homerun) of three perhaps four of the 12 actually contributing to fill in 13 positions of need. Check the math and verify what I am saying.

Some of the Cousins picks have been headscratchers although we all agree it is not a pure science. Players like Ordick who is even rated as a second or a third rounder by some media has been named the Seymour replacement. What? Then there is Tate. A slot receiver. We have 2 (one and a half) now. Graham (who I like) but his arms ore so short he is at an NFL disadvantage. Now all of these opinions, both yours and mine, mean nothing because we do not know who will turn out top tier, but we have an opportunity to make this Team better by sacrificing some of those picks for some young stud NFL ready players (Edwards, Olsen and yes Brandon Marshall etc). Let's trade a couple of these "definite maybe" picks and get better in 2010. 18% Draft success scares me!

If you Cousins are good with 2013 being a great season for the Pats, than I agree. Let's stock up on all these kids with our twelve picks. Force then into the lineup now and see which ones produce and those who don't and we will be a better Team in 2013 than 2009. Isn't what some of you Cousins seek to "conquer the Draft" actually called rebuilding? Yep we have got some great core guys. They are three years older in 2013. TB is older. IMO we put the best product on the field in 2010 and let 2013 take care of itself. That means Trades and FA's to mix with the 3 or 4 that will make our 2010 Draft.

I am not a Holmes fan, but fifth? Al Davis would have even made that move. If BB was indeed approached, he hesitated again. I cannot believe he was ever approached. I do not believe it. The interesting news about that could mean that the Steelers fear the Pats more than the Jets.
DW Toys

 

[GoWhalers]

I thought you were taking your Jets hating goggles off? To understand what you are saying, you would not be ecstatic if it was the Pats who traded a 5th for a 26 yr old very good WR? you cite 2 guys who are going to be malcontents on the team b/c they have 1 yr contracts and the one WR who has a contract will be irked b/c his role may diminish? Your right you do know nothing about Cotchery b/c the guy is the biggest team first, I just want to win personality we have. You want the Jets to offer Holmes financial security now, why? We gave up zip nada for him and by not renewing his deal he knows he has to be on his best behavior or else he is a) killing future earnings and b) may be out of the league if he doesnt clean up his act

Bear with me a second -- I'm just bringing up the issue of team chemistry.

Did the Jets get a great talent for a low trade cost? Undoubtedly. But I'm asking what was the impact of this trade on team chemistry? Chemistry has been blamed for one of the reasons why the Patriots underperformed last year, so I don't think it's something to blow off.

The worry is that players who do not feel financially comfortable are not always looking out for the best interests of the team. The Jets have two wide receivers who are now in that situation. Even if they aren't head cases, this could be problematic.

The Jets have a young QB in Sanchez who has to manage the attitudes on the field. What happens in the locker room, and how does it impact the play on the field? Should the Jets offer Holmes long-term security w/o him having played a down? Probably not, but you've got Edwards on the other side who's looking at the same situation. Can both of those guys have statistical seasons where they both get rewarded? It sounds tough to me.

This is not a Jets-only problem -- hell, even good-Patriots-soldier Randy Moss is starting to make some noise now that he's in the last year of his contract.