Officiating wave of the future? Woman to officiate NFL game for first time

[Gumby]

Fun exercise: any comment about how tradition/culture innately dictates that only men be on the field, replace women (in any capacity) and football with black people and baseball in the 1940s.

silly comparison.

black men and white men are both MEN

women and men are STILL FROM TWO DIFFERENT PLANETS.

 

[Deus Irae]

Fun exercise: look at any of the comments on this thread about how tradition/culture innately dictates that only men be on the field. Now, replace replace women and football with black people and baseball. Congratulations, you've travelled back to the 1940s.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Fun exercise: look at any of the comments on this thread about how tradition/culture innately dictates that only men be on the field. Now, replace replace women and football with black people and baseball. Congratulations, you've travelled back to the 1940s.

Another good exercise, look up Godwin's law.
Through your posting, basically, you stated: 1) For female athletics there is a reasonable exclusion made to equal opportunity. 2) this is due to the legitimate differences between the sexes (females likely unable to crack the lineups of male teams). 3) a similar exclusion to equal opportunity has no basis being applied to female opportunities in NFL officiating.

I absolutely see the logic of that point of view. Blanket statements are best left to Bed Bath and Beyond. Discussions without nuance are frequently a silly exercise. However, do you see the logic of your own argument? If you did you would not have moved the discussion from one of gender to one of race.

BTW, if you looked up Godwin's law, I absolutely am not comparing anyone to Hitler.....<sarcasm>

 

[Tunescribe]

I'm too busy at the moment watching women's Olympic beach volleyball to contribute anything significant to this bikini -- er, thread.

 

[chicowalker]

You must be new around here, despite your number of posts. Happens all the time.

I mostly read the football forum, to get the Pats info we don't get on the west coast. So not new, but not involved enough to know the personalities.

 

[chicowalker]

I didn't make up anything at all. But, If it makes you feel better to pretend I'm ducking you when I'm not, you feel free to go down that road.

I'm just on the road the thread has taken. You've made claims without backing them up, you've failed to answer straightforward questions about your claims and you've made things up about what I've supposedly said. You can call it what you whatever you want.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Another good exercise, look up Godwin's law.
Through your posting, basically, you stated: 1) For female athletics there is a reasonable exclusion made to equal opportunity. 2) this is due to the legitimate differences between the sexes (females likely unable to crack the lineups of male teams). 3) a similar exclusion to equal opportunity has no basis being applied to female opportunities in NFL officiating.

I absolutely see the logic of that point of view. Blanket statements are best left to Bed Bath and Beyond. Discussions without nuance are frequently a silly exercise. However, do you see the logic of your own argument? If you did you would not have moved the discussion from one of gender to one of race.

BTW, if you looked up Godwin's law, I absolutely am not comparing anyone to Hitler.....<sarcasm>

What I posted has nothing at all to do with Godwin's Law. I made an analogy in order to highlight the ignorance of one very specific line of reasoning that was being referenced in a couple of posts in this thread. In essence, relying on "it's tradition/inherent to the culture" is a failed argument from the start. Tradition is only cited in support of arguments as a substitute for actual merit, in cases where there is none.

 

[pwes]

Yawn bringing up women playing in the league is a total strawman and desperate at that. No one is actually suggesting a woman lace up and join the huddle. I mean I don't see people complaining every year that there should not be old refs because next thing you know 60 year old men are going to want to join the league. Suggesting such a thing is ludicrous. If you want to keep it all male then you're going to have to ban women reporters and female executives already in place too. Hell lets ban women from watching the sport all together, keep it real manly (and yes I notice the hypocrisy in that statement and that's the point).

 

[Frezo]

I'm just going to sit back and wait for the women's ref swimsuit issue to debut.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

What I posted has nothing at all to do with Godwin's Law. I made an analogy in order to highlight the ignorance of one very specific line of reasoning that was being referenced in a couple of posts in this thread. In essence, relying on "it's tradition/inherent to the culture" is a failed argument from the start. Tradition is only cited in support of arguments as a substitute for actual merit, in cases where there is none.

The point of bringing up Godwin's law was to highlight how frequent an internet conversation can become reductio ad ridiculum. An internet conversation about the best beer can become a contest about who is worse than Hitler. How could that happen? It's a progression where one poster takes a step, then another poster takes a further step etc etc. For example, a poster injects race into a discussion not about race (I'm sure everyone who does feels "justified" doing so).
It was a poorly chosen tactic on your part. A tactic that turns conversation to a non open/honest state or even shuts it down. That is exactly the kind of thing Godwin's reductio ad ridiculum observations explained.

 

[BradyFTW!]

The point of bringing up Godwin's law was to highlight how frequent an internet conversation can become reductio ad ridiculum. An internet conversation about the best beer can become a contest about who is worse than Hitler. How could that happen? It's a progression where one poster takes a step, then another poster takes a further step etc etc. For example, a poster injects race into a discussion not about race (I'm sure everyone who does feels "justified" doing so).
It was a poorly chosen tactic on your part. A tactic that turns conversation to a non open/honest state or even shuts it down. That is exactly the kind of thing Godwin's reductio ad ridiculum observations explained.

Please describe how my argument equates to reductio ad ridiculum. I am well acquainted with this principle, and I still maintain that my analogy holds water. Feel free to specify exactly how the analogy that I made is flawed -- I'm all ears, and I'm entirely open to the possibility that I may be wrong. I doubt that I am, but if you can make any kind of an argument that that is the case, then I will listen to it with an open mind.

 

[NSPF]

I think the problem here was poor writing. Deus, please don't take this personally, but honestly it wasn't clear at all what your point was until reading the thread twice and slowly piecing it together. By masking it in a condescending "Do explain..." statement, you obfuscated what your only point was, (which if I am not mistaken was that wanting to keep something all male is not inherently misogynistic, which is a correct) and immediately caused an angry reaction in the reader. You can chalk it up to bad reading comprehension if you want, but in the end the writer is responsible for making a piece easy to understand.

On the actual point of the thread,there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that women would be worse as refs. Saying that they'd do things like call more unnecessary roughness flags because of their gender is ridiculous, especially when referring to individual women. I understand if someone just prefers the aesthetic of the male referee, but if that's the case just call it what it is.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Why are we even having this debate? There is a fitness and IQ standard for NFL officials and they all go through rigourous evaluation at lower levels. If a woman passes all of this there should be no reason why she can't officiate a pro game...labour strike or no labour strike.

I think it's an embarrassment we're even debating it. Wake up and smell the 21st century folks....

Go have this debate with one of those female shot putters in the Olympics I wouldn't want to mess with one of them!

 

[jcdavey]

if in shape women can get the calls right better than some of the out of shape men who are current refs, or the ******ed ones like hochuli, then i'm all for it!

 

[Gumby]

.. There is a fitness and IQ standard for NFL officials and they all go through rigourous evaluation at lower levels. .............

Please cite reference: ____________

I think the "fitness" standard is entirely arbitrary and seriously doubt they have an "IQ" standard. The best link I found How To Become an NFL Official just says 10 years experience is really the only main criteria.

funny how NFL.com has no link that lists pre-requisites (at least any more; maybe they deleted it; IF (?) they gave her an exemption to some criteria).

Anyway; my basic position from the get-go is this is a ploy by NFL to USE THE MEDIA to put pressure on the striking refs (by publicizing how replaceable they are). all rest of this man-woman discussion is really just meaningless (albeit entertaining) blather.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Please cite reference: ____________

I think the "fitness" standard is entirely arbitrary and seriously doubt they have an "IQ" standard. The best link I found How To Become an NFL Official just says 10 years experience is really the only main criteria.

funny how NFL.com has no link that lists pre-requisites (at least any more; maybe they deleted it; IF (?) they gave her an exemption to some criteria).

Anyway; my basic position from the get-go is this is a ploy by NFL to USE THE MEDIA to put pressure on the striking refs (by publicizing how replaceable they are). all rest of this man-woman discussion is really just meaningless (albeit entertaining) blather.

Well it says you should list all the games you've officiated over the last three seasons and have officiated at some professional level equivalent to college varsity or another professional level...which there will be tape on, which would have been looked at.

'Must be in excellent physical condition'...hard to think they wouldn't at least test you out on this.

Whether or not they put you through a test of your knowledge of the rules it doesn't say but, again, it's hard to believe they wouldn't test you. To get to a professional standard, you have to go through some pretty tough exams anyway to get the required qualification...so it's not like it's a walk in the park to get there.

I imagine they do their research on someone rather than just saying 'well he clearly has the experience on paper, he looks like he can run a little...let's make him an official'.

 

[Haley]

Once the replacement officials overcome the experience hurdle, they would go through a battery of tests including an extensive background check, financial security check and then a physical, as do the NFL referees each and every year, in order to meet the physical requirements and demands placed on their bodies every season.

source:
101Sports.com: Tony Softli - NFLRA Not Happy with Lockout

 

[Gumby]

'Must be in excellent physical condition'...hard to think they wouldn't at least test you out on this.

Whether or not they put you through a test of your knowledge of the rules it doesn't say but, again, it's hard to believe they wouldn't test you. To get to a professional standard, you have to go through some pretty tough exams anyway to get the required qualification...so it's not like it's a walk in the park to get there.

I imagine they do their research on someone rather than just saying 'well he clearly has the experience on paper, he looks like he can run a little...let's make him an official'.

Just a little bit of "I ASSUME, I IMAGINE, I THINK" going on there on your part. And that was my point.

IT is all subjective other than the 10 years of experience and even that has no quantitative measure to it - like 10 years with less than x% overturns by replay.

They can look at somebody and say 'boy, you look really buff - you'll do' OR they can go out and say 'run me a 40 to show you can keep up with a wr going for a hail mary' depending on their preference.

so if they REALLY REALLY WANT a female ref (just to get it in the paper); they don't have to test her at all really

OR on the other hand all of a sudden magic 40 times that most women could never match appear to keep her out of the running. (but don't try and tell me any of these 60+old current refs ever did any 40 sprints to keep their jobs. I am not buying that).

There are no real standards. Otherwise the jokes that was officiating in SB XL and prior playoffs wouldn't have occurred.

 

[Haley]

Gumby, that is pure speculation. Ignorance of the NFL's physical criteria is not proof that it doesn't exist. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Also, by the same argument, women could have been willfully excluded. Given the number of female referees in existence, which do you think is more likely?

 

[Gumby]

Gumby, that is pure speculation. Ignorance of the NFL's physical criteria is not proof that it doesn't exist. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

If i can download the entire NFL rulebook on nfl.com and there is not a single mention on the webpage or in the book of what the hiring criteria for officials are (that is, it is not PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE) - ipso facto - it doesnt exist.

the fact it isn't public means they can later make it into anything they want as required or never define it.

regardless; i think the whole "physical fitness" criteria is a joke (it is probably only there to prevent a guy in a wheelchair from launching an EO lawsuit). the true measure is how well can they call the game. and the nfl has not done a serious enough job to fix the bad calls (either vet or better train the refs) or make all possible calls reviewable (why not correct something stupid DURING the game if you can).

Again the nfl has failed at that with a corrupt 'favored-sons' playoffs in the XL SB season and inconsistent officiating ever since.