Game Day Thread Official Post Game Thread- Vikings beat the Pats

[captain stone]

The hand under the ball did not move ON the ball. Henry had full control with that hand. That's catch every time... except for this game when the NYJFL refs get involved. The other hand did move but that is not the point. That was a catch. Now, if the league wanted to say that the bobble meant that he didn't have control until he hit the ground, then they still should have placed the ball on the 6 inch line.

That’s EXACTLY what the ruling should’ve been: Legal catch, but control not established until the ball was outside the goal line… 4th/Goal inside the 1.

That’s don’t have incontrovertible visual evidence of that assertion. That means you haven’t met the NFL burden of proof for overturning a call. Plus, Henry secured control of the ball with his hands, extended the ball across the goal line before touching the ground. That’s a completion according to Rule 8, Article 1, Section 3.

HH Never established possession until the ball was outside the goal line… When the ball was over it, he was still in the process of establishing control of the catch… At No POINT did he become a “runner” and make a “football move” with the ball over the goal line… Because the ball loosened from his grip when he hit the ground, he had to Re-establish control… Which he did, but not until the ball was back outside - and NOT over - the goal line…. 4th/Goal inside the 1.

This isn’t that hard, folks… Except, strangely, it seems, to the most blind homers here and the suits (& skirts) on Park Avenue.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Clearly a strawman post.

Zappe doesn't need to pass for 600 yards to win a game. He just needs to make a few more plays when the going gets tough. He just needs to extend plays when the pocket breaks down. He's already shown us that he can do that. The only thing Mac Jones has going for him in 2022 is his draft status. He cost us a 1st round pick so some people just assume that he's the best option at QB.

This "sunk cost fallacy" thinking continues even when this franchise in its own history has shown that a 6th round pick can play better than a 1st round pick. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat mistakes. How long will the Mac Jones/Matt Patricia/Joe Judge horror show experiment be allowed to continue?

Is there ever a time when Mac's actual performance will come into play in what we'll optimistically call your "analysis"?

Did you SEE the very good, albeit losing effort Mac put in Thursday?

Come on man. Something else to whine about now. Nice to have Zappe in the hip pocket but move on.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Once a narrative is embedded in someone's mind, it's tough for outsiders to undo. It usually takes some kind of "come to Jesus" moment for the affected person to smarten up. We see that in politics, love, business, etc...

One word, deprogramming

 

[Ian]

I understand people want to romanticize the Bledsoe/Brady thing, but as I've said repeatedly, it's not the same thing. And for those who want to say that Zappe is the answer, they seem to forget Zappe's 4th QTR against Chicago:



Not that I enjoy pointing that out because I'm not a big fan of s****** on our own players when Zappe's a great kid that didn't ask to be in this position.

At the same time, it's just strange to me that when Zappe played well, it was fine but when he had a tough second half (where they were shutout - BTW) it was either "the coaches suck" or the "team just sucks". Which I'm assuming is what would happen if he replaced Mac and also struggled with Patricia calling for reverses in odd situations.

This is such a bizarre year to say the least. Mac isn't a 5-year vet who hit his ceiling years ago. The kid's in his second season and missed a month's worth of football. I've also seen a fair amout of failed comeback attempts by Justin Herbert so far in Los Angeles. Is he a JAG with a better arm? I mean...it is what it is. It takes several seasons before you really know what you have.

Either way, these are the growing pains we're going to have to deal with and all of this is going to sort itself out eventually. Zappe's a rookie and they aren't in any rush with him. If he's ultimately the guy, we'll find out. If he's not, we'll find that out too. But the fact people are giving up on a kid who has barely been in the league for over a year, especially after everything that went wrong that he had nothing to do with (the kickoff return for a touchdown, the call on Hunter Henry, the running into the kicker call, etc.), is a little ridiculous.

 

[mgcolby]

Like all NFL teams, this one is not complete. It has weaknesses. This isn't a mystery. The team is talented all over the field EXCEPT for OL and LB.

Guess what? They are going to focus on bringing in OL and LBs this year.

Dare I say Roquan Smith? Draft and sign a couple of Tackles and get another explosive WR. Next year should be a contending year. Third year QB back to back solid draft classes now all veterans. 2nd most FA money/cap space and only three real glaring needs OL (tackles assuming Strange progresses as one should expect) WR and an ILB.

Oh and a real deal OC. I blame Patricia for that bonehead slide instead of throwing it away. Unless Mac just lost his brain, Patricia should have emphasized the clock and to throw it away if there is not a play to be made quickly.

 

[Tunescribe]

I think

Not often. And even then, no veracity.

there's a difference between a 4th Qtr and a half.

No way! How could this possibly be true? Is your calculator on the fritz?

4th Qtr:
8 of 13 (61%) 0 TDs, 2 sacks

4th Qtr Drives:
Punt (3 & Out) 1 yd
Punt (3 & Out) 9 yds
TO downs (sack) 54 yds
End game (sack) 40 yds

Of course, you conveniently ignored my subsequent post (#387) with Mac's fourth-quarter stats: 12 passes attempted, 8 completions (66 percent), 104 yards. Since your post comes in defense of Bo Jingles' assessment that Mac Jones "played like ass" in the fourth quarter, you apparently feel same. That's a real shocker.

But the fact is, li'l fella, your anti-Mac hate campaign is taking on water. Maybe time to consider abandoning ship? Three-straight games for the kid with no turnovers, you must be devastated!

 

[Ross12]

I understand people want to romanticize the Bledsoe/Brady thing, but as I've said repeatedly, it's not the same thing. And for those who want to say that Zappe is the answer, they seem to forget Zappe's 4th QTR against Chicago:

View attachment 47663

Not that I enjoy pointing that out because I'm not a big fan of s****** on our own players when Zappe's a great kid that didn't ask to be in this position.

At the same time, it's just strange to me that when Zappe played well, it was fine but when he had a tough second half (where they were shutout - BTW) it was either "the coaches suck" or the "team just sucks". Which I'm assuming is what would happen if he replaced Mac and also still had Patricia calling for reverses in odd situations.

This is such a bizarre year to say the least. Mac isn't a 5-year vet who hit his ceiling years ago. The kid's in his second season and missed a month's worth of football. I've also seen a fair amout of failed comeback attempts by Justin Herbert so far in Los Angeles. Is he a JAG with a better arm? I mean...it is what it is. It takes several seasons before you really know what you have.

Either way, these are the growing pains we're going to have to deal with and all of this is going to sort itself out eventually. Zappe's a rookie and they aren't in any rush with him. If he's ultimately the guy, we'll find out. If he's not, we'll find that out too. But the fact people are giving up on a kid who has barely been in the league for over a year, especially after everything that went wrong that he had nothing to do with (the kickoff return for a touchdown, the call on Hunter Henry, the running into the kicker call, etc.), is a little ridiculous.

I agree 100% Ian. Zappe's pocket movement was top tier, and I think he threw the ball better than Mac does (IMO) but we have no idea where he's at as far as reading NFL defenses or understanding NFL concepts. By his own admission, he was simply running what Patricia was calling. Mac should be able to do a lot more mentally than Zappe at the moment, and obviously, has a year of NFL physical conditioning as well.

I definitely have an optimistic future outlook on Zappe but I don't see any reason to think he should play over Mac right now. Mac looked good last night, let's keep evaluating him this season and then in the offseason if Zappe really is "the guy" Bill will give him every opportunity to prove it.

 

[Foxypats]

Not sure why, but all day I have had this horrible feeling, this loss really bothered me, it’s the worst I have felt in about 3 years !! Going to hope and pray that some AFC teams losing this Sunday!!

 

[PatsFan2]

I hope R Kraft slips the refs a couple and say... There is plenty more where that came from. The Refs owe us one.

 

[PatsFan2]

but we have "studs" like Agholor that Stops running mid route.

Agholor giveth and Agholor taketh away what a terrible player.

 

[Triumph]

Well I Don’t like Dingy Tony, but he’s 100% correct here: under those circumstances, you ALWAYS use your timeouts after 1st & 2nd downs, obviously.

What happens on 3rd down when the Vikes take a delay of game and burn the same time off the clock anyway?

Either way you have X amount of clock and the other team has 1 down to drain the play clock

 

[PatsFan2]

Agholor drop was bad . Where is the speed.mac placed it perfectly .

Thornton is absent all along. Where is his speed ? Does he just get knocked off in LoS. Seems a big whiff of draft pick for now.

I like Thornton but not where the Pats took him. He had Third Rounder written all over him.

 

[Triumph]

The Mac hate on this board has reached absurd heights now.

If you step your game up Patricia can be back as the Bad Man.

The Bills game could very well blow the Mac fan wagon up if he does not show up.

 

[captain stone]

Its the same old story.

Next year.

Yep, like when some kool-aid-aholics would talk about having an “extra draft class” for a subsequent year because the rookie class was “red-shirted” during the current season… Only problem was that the following year’s rookie class would invariably also be “red-shirted”… And so on… And so on…

 

[Ian]

I agree 100% Ian. Zappe's pocket movement was top tier, and I think he threw the ball better than Mac does (IMO) but we have no idea where he's at as far as reading NFL defenses or understanding NFL concepts. By his own admission, he was simply running what Patricia was calling. Mac should be able to do a lot more mentally than Zappe at the moment, and obviously, has a year of NFL physical conditioning as well.

I definitely have an optimistic future outlook on Zappe but I don't see any reason to think he should play over Mac right now. Mac looked good last night, let's keep evaluating him this season and then in the offseason if Zappe really is "the guy" Bill will give him every opportunity to prove it.

Let's be honest, Mac's trajectory is going to need to continue the way it's been, and they're going to need to punch it in more frequently in the red area. Last night, it basically went down this way:

1) The reverse, which lost seven yards on second down - FG
2) The play where Jones slid and gave himself up and made them burn the timeout (Belichick was obviously livid), and he threw the fade to Bourne, where Shelley never turned around but wasn't flagged. - FG
3) The called-back TD against Henry on a great throw from Jones. - FG

So basically, hard to put two of those three on Jones.

Although, are we supposed to penalize him for throwing a 34 and 37yd touchdown? That feels a little odd to me.

Still, I've found Belichick's comments to be a bit telling the last couple of weeks, but I can't figure out if it's Jones or Patricia he's frustrated with.

Belichick on the passing game Sunday Night:
"Good at times, three-for-10 on 3rd down. Not really good enough. Couldn't get the ball in the red area on a couple drives. Room for improvement."

Last Week after the Jets' Game:
"We moved the ball. We had 300 yards of offense but only three points. So did a poor job of finishing our drives, getting the ball in good field position into scoring range or getting the ball in the red area into the end zone. We've got to find a way to do that better."

 

[captain stone]

Reaching the ball out across the goal line = "football move". Not sure how a player can perform a football move with the ball before they have possession of the ball.

He can’t.

Because what HH did was NOT a “football move”; he was STILL in the process of completing the catch when the ball happened to be across the goal line… When he finally completed the process -delayed because he juggled the ball when he hit the ground - the ball was now Outside of the goal line… 4th/Goal inside the 1.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Justin Jefferson lit it up for 1400 yards his rookie year.

Yep, like when some kool-aid-aholics would talk about having an “extra draft class” for a subsequent year because the rookie class was “red-shirted” during the current season… Only problem was that the following year’s rookie class would invariably also be “red-shirted”… And so on… And so on…

Yeah, this is why some of us lose patience so quickly because this is a league where they've catered to offensive players so it's way easier to get open and their opportunities to get the ball has gone up dramatically.

 

[Ross12]

Let's be honest, Mac's trajectory is going to need to continue the way it's been, and they're going to need to punch it in more frequently in the red area. Last night, it basically went down this way:

1) The reverse, which lost seven yards on second down - FG
2) The play where Jones slid and gave himself up and made them burn the timeout (Belichick was obviously livid), and he threw the fade to Bourne, where Shelley never turned around but wasn't flagged. - FG
3) The called-back TD against Henry on a great throw from Jones. - FG

So basically, hard to put two of those three on Jones.

Although, are we supposed to penalize him for throwing a 34 and 37yd touchdown? That feels a little odd to me.

Still, I've found Belichick's comments to be a bit telling the last couple of weeks, but I can't figure out if it's Jones or Patricia he's frustrated with.

Belichick on the passing game:
"Good at times, three-for-10 on 3rd down. Not really good enough. Couldn't get the ball in the red area on a couple drives. Room for improvement."

I think he probably pressed Mac a few weeks ago and Mac has mostly risen to that challenge at this point. By now any frustrations should be with Patricia.

Personally, I've found Patricia's playcalling to be serviceable between the 20's, but when they get to the red zone it's like he has no idea what to do. They'd have better results letting Mac choose the plays once they're in the red zone IMO... Or Judge, or something. Anyone else.

 

[captain stone]

I’d love to see Mac start doing the following in order:

1. Sack the f.uck up.
2. Shut the f.uck up.

It’s real easy to run down and tell a CB to hold your nuts or do a queer dance in the end zone when you score after committing multiple turnovers. Much harder to do it when things are not going your way and you revert to being a crybaby b.itch boy. If something happens like last night where you almost get your head ripped off your shoulders and the refs miss it, yell at them after the play and MOVE ON. This kid gets way, way, WAYYYY too emotional and visibly lets the previous negative play get to him.

Yep… Corky’s such a self-soiling, gutless b!tch boy it’s sickening… Champagne Tony Eason 38 years later….

 

[Kontradiction]

That's such a ridiculous post that you should actually feel shame to have made it.

Bah gawd almighty, this man is in 2016 form!