Game Day Thread Official Post Game Thread- Vikings beat the Pats

[RobertWeathers]

As other have noted, the Viking defense is suspect.

Of course they are and Mac shredded them.

 

[Deus Irae]

Agree. Pats have the most expensive group of receivers (WR, TE) in the league, yet we're bottom third in yards and scoring. Very frustrating.

But let's be fair about this, because New England's not alone. Just look at this list:


Bucs
Rams
Patriots
Colts
Raiders
Packers


Are all teams where there are huge offensive problems because of a similar set of issues (Bad/injured OLs, underperforming/injured receivers and/or rbs) that are combining to make things difficult, if not impossible, for even the best QBs to function at the level people expect of them.

 

[Deus Irae]

Mac had a very good game and I agree with you that this is NOT the game to point the finger at Mac. I do point the finger at the offense as a unit and the coaching however. Still no red zone touchdowns in this game.
Trying a trick play at the 12 yard line shows how desperate the coaching staff is for answers. Hunter Henry not getting out of bounds with less than a minute to go...etc.

Fair enough, and I probably shouldn't have repeatedly tagged your post as the one I was responding to. Racervx54 was explicit in calling out Mac, while your post was more general. I used your post because you were supplying the stats, and I was countering the notion of this particular game by pointing out "stats"/specifics of play, and I should have led off my first response to you with that explanation.

So my apologies if you felt you were being unfairly focused on.

 

[Since1960]

...who is going to be throwing lasers to Jefferson in this unlikely scenario?

First off, totally agree this is an unlikely scenario but we should get a #1 given the Vikings low draft position. Then we start a new search with Jimmy G. maybe being a possibility or trading up with draft capital to select one of the best QB’s available. I’m hoping Mac continues the progress started last night but we should have a good idea in the coming winter months whether he has the goods.

 

[patfanken]

Settled on my final nickname for Godchaux, "Gotcha"


I thought of you when someone preambled a complaint with "football's a simple game"... didn't square with "endlessly fascinating" or my own admittedly less learned perspective on the game

I am constantly reminded just how LITTLE I know now, especially since I have been out of it for close to 35 years. What I DO remember is while I was playing, I thought I was a student of the game, and understood it. Well THAT bubble was burst, when I first got into coaching. Literally every day it was pounded into me just how little I knew as a player. I was a coach for over 15 years. I never went to a clinic or even had a conversation with another coach where I DIDN'T learn something new that I could use to be a better coach and teacher.

But I know just how LITTLE I know, so it always stuns me just how "smart" the whiners are. That's why I really appreciate guys like BCG, Bedard and Lazar, when they break down film to help explain things to us. BUT even then, even when you have the film right in front of you, there is SO much that CAN'T be explained because we don't know the rules of a particular offensive play, the routes, the route options, etc

It's this complexity that makes the game so compelling, (at least to me) But in the end, the Vikings made a few more good plays than the Pats, while the Pats made a LOT of bad plays that kept them from winning a game they were set up to lose in the first place. I

MHO There were some good things to take from this game going forward. Mostly the play of Mac Jones, and the success of the OL for the most part. The DL completely shut down a good running attack and for the most part had decent coverage. Unfortunately Jefferson and Cousins were just a BIT better. best example of that was Mills being LITERALLY an inch short of deflecting that TD pass. to Thellan. In fact the only really BAD coverages I saw were the HORRIBLE job Duggar did on the Hock TD and the pick play that opened up Reigher over the middle. (was it illegal, I'm not sure)

In my mind I believe strongly that this team is good enough to run with the Bills and get into the 4th quarter with a chance to win. BUT they are going to need some breaks and bounces. We shall see.

BTW- anyone know when Baremore can come off IR?

 

[VJCPatriot]

Strange had his best game in about 5 weeks. The entire offense did, but that was pretty expected. To call their D “pedestrian” is an insult to pedestrian defenses. They’re pretty bad. That’s why them shutting us down once they began to sit in Cover-1 and Cover-3 (which are interchangeable looks with a single high safety) is so alarming.

It's alarming that our starting QB, Mac Jones can't read defenses when all they are doing is shifting between Cover-1 and Cover-3. Normally one might say a young QB could be 'coached up' and improved but look at who's coaching him!

Mac Jones continues to regress. He continues to lose his cool in big moments. And let's say for argument sake that you call Sunday's game, Mac's "best ever". He still came up SHORT. When the defense needed to get help from the offense, Mac Jones came up small in the game's biggest moments. Perhaps it's time for a change. Hint to BB: Zappe is still on the roster.

 

[sb1]

It's alarming that our starting QB, Mac Jones can't read defenses when all they are doing is shifting between Cover-1 and Cover-3. Normally one might say a young QB could be 'coached up' and improved but look at who's coaching him!

Mac Jones continues to regress. He continues to lose his cool in big moments. And let's say for argument sake that you call Sunday's game, Mac's "best ever". He still came up SHORT. When the defense needed to get help from the offense, Mac Jones came up small in the game's biggest moments. Perhaps it's time for a change. Hint to BB: Zappe is still on the roster.

Haven’t seen any evidence that Zappe is an upgrade over Mac. I suspect we never will.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's alarming that our starting QB, Mac Jones can't read defenses when all they are doing is shifting between Cover-1 and Cover-3. Normally one might say a young QB could be 'coached up' and improved but look at who's coaching him!

Mac Jones continues to regress. He continues to lose his cool in big moments. And let's say for argument sake that you call Sunday's game, Mac's "best ever". He still came up SHORT. When the defense needed to get help from the offense, Mac Jones came up small in the game's biggest moments. Perhaps it's time for a change. Hint to BB: Zappe is still on the roster.

 

[slash83]

Certainly not the least of their problems, but he wasn't near the top of the list last night.

The least of their problems are players like Rham, Onwenu, Jonathan Jones - maybe throw in Guy/Godchaux - players who consistently do their job at their position at a relatively high level. Dependable, consistent, talented.

Mac definitely played his best game of the season last night, though, and this team will be in better shape if they get that from him on a consistent basis. Situational stuff, red area, and consistency across an entire game still needs work, though.

JJ wasn’t good last night. Two costly penalties and a dropper interception.

 

[VJCPatriot]

First off, totally agree this is an unlikely scenario but we should get a #1 given the Vikings low draft position. Then we start a new search with Jimmy G. maybe being a possibility or trading up with draft capital to select one of the best QB’s available. I’m hoping Mac continues the progress started last night but we should have a good idea in the coming winter months whether he has the goods.

Zappe throwing balls to Justin Jefferson. I could see that working out. Jefferson is the type of franchise WR that the Patriots have never been able to draft because BB prefers to take busts like N'Keal Harry. BB actually veto'd the recommendations of the scouting department to make that terrible pick.

I'm going to go out on a limb that Tyquan Thornton was Matt Groh's pick because it broke the mold of the usual WRs we draft - slot jitterbugs. Instead he gambled on pure speed. Unfortunately that gamble hasn't paid off yet as Tyquan Thornton has been just as invisible as N'Keal Harry. Thornton had 0 receptions for 0 yards against Minnesota and made me question whether he was even active on game day. Another poster assured me that Thornton was on the field, he just made 0 impact on a game where we needed someone to step up and make a big play in crunch time.

 

[sb1]

Zappe throwing balls to Justin Jefferson. I could see that working out.

Zappe should probably figure out how to get the ball past the other team's DL first if he wants to stay in the NFL.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I’d love to see Mac start doing the following in order:

1. Sack the f.uck up.
2. Shut the f.uck up.

It’s real easy to run down and tell a CB to hold your nuts or do a queer dance in the end zone when you score after committing multiple turnovers. Much harder to do it when things are not going your way and you revert to being a crybaby b.itch boy. If something happens like last night where you almost get your head ripped off your shoulders and the refs miss it, yell at them after the play and MOVE ON. This kid gets way, way, WAYYYY too emotional and visibly lets the previous negative play get to him.

The good-to-great QBs in this league get mad after the play, yell who they need to yell at (whether it’s the ref or a teammate), and move on, mentally, to the next play. You’re not doing yourself or your team any good when you have the emotional stability of a pee wee quarterback on the field.

So you're telling me you're not just worried about Mac Jone's 'arm talent' or lack thereof, but rather his lack of emotional maturity to handle things not going his way?

When a team looks for a leader in big moments in the game, they need to have confidence in that leader. They need to see belief, composure, and a will to win. Are you saying that Mac Jones doesn't just fail as a passer of the football, but he fails as a leader on the field? That would be a pretty big shortcoming to overcome. Certainly it might be harder to overcome than just having below average arm strength. As we know that can be improved over time with the proper strength training and throwing coach training. But a lack of mental fortitude? That's ingrained, kind of like what we saw in Zach Wilson. The lack of mental toughness is harder to overcome because it's an internal thing.

But don't you worry, with a quality 'QB whisperer' like Joe Judge, I'm sure Mac can be coached out of his bad habits and improve his leadership. Oh wait... we need to count on Joe Judge to coach up Mac?

 

[VJCPatriot]

Haven’t seen any evidence that Zappe is an upgrade over Mac. I suspect we never will.

2022. Bailey Zappe, 5 TD 3 INTs, 100.9 QB Rating.
2022. Mac Jones, 6 TD 7 INTs, 87.3 QB Rating.

It's a pretty big upgrade. If you're not committed to "sunk cost fallacy" you can clearly tell who has been the better QB in 2022.



We are currently reliving Brady vs Bledsoe in reverse. But this time people want to keep putting Bledsoe out there even though he's clearly not good enough for the current offense to win games.

 

[RIpats88]

It's alarming that our starting QB, Mac Jones can't read defenses when all they are doing is shifting between Cover-1 and Cover-3. Normally one might say a young QB could be 'coached up' and improved but look at who's coaching him!

Mac Jones continues to regress. He continues to lose his cool in big moments. And let's say for argument sake that you call Sunday's game, Mac's "best ever". He still came up SHORT. When the defense needed to get help from the offense, Mac Jones came up small in the game's biggest moments. Perhaps it's time for a change. Hint to BB: Zappe is still on the roster.

This is a troll post right? 382 yards and 2 tds is regression?

Zappe would've had 600 yards and 5 tds!!

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I am constantly reminded just how LITTLE I know now, especially since I have been out of it for close to 35 years. What I DO remember is while I was playing, I thought I was a student of the game, and understood it. Well THAT bubble was burst, when I first got into coaching. Literally every day it was pounded into me just how little I knew as a player. I was a coach for over 15 years. I never went to a clinic or even had a conversation with another coach where I DIDN'T learn something new that I could use to be a better coach and teacher.

But I know just how LITTLE I know, so it always stuns me just how "smart" the whiners are. That's why I really appreciate guys like BCG, Bedard and Lazar, when they break down film to help explain things to us. BUT even then, even when you have the film right in front of you, there is SO much that CAN'T be explained because we don't know the rules of a particular offensive play, the routes, the route options, etc

Agree wholeheartedly. I do appreciate as-it-happens analysis when it's good, but I am also constantly aware of the lure of fraudulent expertise out there I have learned in every endeavor that the beginning of wisdom is to admit not knowing anything, never mind knowing it all. That said, and the difference between coaches' and players' perspectives understood, I have often listened to Romo break down a play and 20 seconds later picked my jaw off the floor and thought "Oh THAT's the game they're playing. How interesting..."

It's this complexity that makes the game so compelling, (at least to me) But in the end, the Vikings made a few more good plays than the Pats, while the Pats made a LOT of bad plays that kept them from winning a game they were set up to lose in the first place. I

MHO There were some good things to take from this game going forward. Mostly the play of Mac Jones, and the success of the OL for the most part. The DL completely shut down a good running attack and for the most part had decent coverage. Unfortunately Jefferson and Cousins were just a BIT better. best example of that was Mills being LITERALLY an inch short of deflecting that TD pass. to Thellan. In fact the only really BAD coverages I saw were the HORRIBLE job Duggar did on the Hock TD and the pick play that opened up Reigher over the middle. (was it illegal, I'm not sure)

In my mind I believe strongly that this team is good enough to run with the Bills and get into the 4th quarter with a chance to win. BUT they are going to need some breaks and bounces. We shall see.

Agree. I think we're seeing a constant recycling of now month-long issues overwhelming current events. But again, people want to catastrophize for some reason, and in the process a lot of fans are missing out on the journey we're actually on. We might or might not be there at the end, but rushing to seal it off is way premature.

BTW- anyone know when Baremore can come off IR?

Looks like 4 weeks out, then he can return.

Patriots believe DL Christian Barmore will return after 4 weeks, per report

 

[upstater1]

You obviously flunked physics.

If you only knew me, LOL, this is so far off.

Haha... Let me "learn" you something. There is not one thing called ground that is responsible for all collisions. You can collide with a player (in fact, there was a player RIGHT THERE who knocked his arms and dislodged it), you can knock things against yourself too.

I can say I certainly didn't flunk Physics, but you need an emergency appointment with the eye doctor. His hands come off the ball long after it's off the ground.

Look at the stitches. They don't move at all. The ball is dead still.

 

[upstater1]

2022. Bailey Zappe, 5 TD 3 INTs, 100.9 QB Rating.
2022. Mac Jones, 6 TD 7 INTs, 87.3 QB Rating.

It's a pretty big upgrade. If you're not committed to "sunk cost fallacy" you can clearly tell who has been the better QB in 2022.

View attachment 47662

We are currently reliving Brady vs Bledsoe in reverse. But this time people want to keep putting Bledsoe out there even though he's clearly not good enough for the current offense to win games.

Not this **** again

 

[VJCPatriot]

This is a troll post right? 382 yards and 2 tds is regression?

Zappe would've had 600 yards and 5 tds!!

Clearly a strawman post.

Zappe doesn't need to pass for 600 yards to win a game. He just needs to make a few more plays when the going gets tough. He just needs to extend plays when the pocket breaks down. He's already shown us that he can do that. The only thing Mac Jones has going for him in 2022 is his draft status. He cost us a 1st round pick so some people just assume that he's the best option at QB.

This "sunk cost fallacy" thinking continues even when this franchise in its own history has shown that a 6th round pick can play better than a 1st round pick. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat mistakes. How long will the Mac Jones/Matt Patricia/Joe Judge horror show experiment be allowed to continue?

 

[sb1]

2022. Bailey Zappe, 5 TD 3 INTs, 100.9 QB Rating.
2022. Mac Jones, 6 TD 7 INTs, 87.3 QB Rating.

It's a pretty big upgrade. If you're not committed to "sunk cost fallacy" you can clearly tell who has been the better QB in 2022.



We are currently reliving Brady vs Bledsoe in reverse. But this time people want to keep putting Bledsoe out there even though he's clearly not good enough for the current offense to win games.

Mac isn't Bledsoe and Zappe should never be compared to Brady for any reason.

And that's not evidence, that's a 3 game sample size compared to what should be a 25 game sample size with a 17+1 game season included

Bill is one of the very last coaches in the league who would buy into the sunk cost fallacy. Mac is still our starter so seems that he does not view Zappe as an upgrade over Mac at this point in time. That's likely because Mac is the better QB. If Zappe was all that he would have seized the opportunity he had against the Bears and well, he didn't.

That's not saying Mac is the future for the Patriots, that part is TBD.

 

[sb1]

He's already shown us that he can do that.

Sure didn't look like it when the Bears defenders were knocking down a dozen of his throws.