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N'Keal Harry (lack of) Progress Report

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Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
Harry doesn't break the DB's ankles...The DB turned when he turned, and Then fell down...
Sure... when you're already committed to an agenda it's hard to see evidence that utterly destroys it.

Cam had plenty of time to throw, Harry cleanly shook his defender and created the magical separation everyone say he can't (twice/both videos) and he is running almost stride for stride with Byrd who runs a 4.2 forty.

Cam sucks, has sucked all season, and when he's been barely serviceable the weapons have done their job. If they weren't getting open, if they were dropping balls, then the fantasy football crowd here would have a legitimate complaint... but the QB play has stunk. Blaming the nails when you're trying to hammer them in with a rubber chicken isn't very logical. WR play doesn't happen in a vacuum.
 

PatsFanInVa

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I watched one of these Harry video minutes after NE drafted him .... and just now.
He hasn't gotten any faster in the video :)
His lack of speed vs the weak PAC 10 should have been the reddest of red flags.
In the rare examples when Harry ran free in open space, he was chased down with minimal effort by everyone; DBs and LBs alike.

(OT: Is Harry knock kneed? Somethings going on with his leg movement)

On the plus side, it is clear Harry does possess one skill that has value: strength/size/hands to win contested balls which should be of most value for a team like NE that has no legit end zone targets.
The problem for NE....getting the ball near the end zone.
Second problem........having a capable QB to deliver the ball in the end zone
Given the goal line play calling to date, NE has no trust in anyone....so....... QB sneak

Regarding Metcalf, BB likely felt "we don't value deep passes so why draft a premium athlete who will make our crap QBs look crappier when they underthrow him once a game."
I suspect Nike disagreed but didn't want to end up in Bill's dog house (see what I did there)
If we draft the fastest 40 time in the draft (yes yes, with the Youtube clips showing him running fast in-game), and we whiff, team gets an F and all the smart guys say we needed a guy who will go up and contest the jump balls, etcetera, etcetera.

Harry beat up a bunch of college level DBs (and the other guys outran a bunch of college level DBs.)

But the biggest astigmatism in the eye-test is that hindsight is 20/20. Especially this year, right? See what I did there? 2020?

I know we opened up our can o draftnik early this year, and that's fair. I'm much better at spotting the maniacal side of any given moment than getting the "right answer." Honestly, it is amazing to me that with so many guys better at player eval. than a pro football team, you guys have to correct previous drafts here, in retrospect, rather than help out a pro team as it happens in a war room somewhere. Eh well. Guess the league is missing out.

But seriously I'm really contributing nothing, and I see you guys all in your backdraft feelings/observations/etc. I'm being a wet blanket, I get that; critique is perfectly legit, especially when we're not winning super bowls :D

A lot of folks here know I sort of wrote off 2020, and I still don't think we make it to a Super Bowl. But maybe we will. More importantly everybody be careful... & evaluate on!

- edit: to clarify, I mean I still don't think there will be a super bowl this year, regardless of whether NE is in it
 

borg

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If we draft the fastest 40 time in the draft (yes yes, with the Youtube clips showing him running fast in-game), and we whiff, team gets an F and all the smart guys say we needed a guy who will go up and contest the jump balls, etcetera, etcetera.

Harry beat up a bunch of college level DBs (and the other guys outran a bunch of college level DBs.)

But the biggest astigmatism in the eye-test is that hindsight is 20/20. Especially this year, right? See what I did there? 2020?

I know we opened up our can o draftnik early this year, and that's fair. I'm much better at spotting the maniacal side of any given moment than getting the "right answer." Honestly, it is amazing to me that with so many guys better at player eval. than a pro football team, you guys have to correct previous drafts here, in retrospect, rather than help out a pro team as it happens in a war room somewhere. Eh well. Guess the league is missing out.

But seriously I'm really contributing nothing, and I see you guys all in your backdraft feelings/observations/etc. I'm being a wet blanket, I get that; critique is perfectly legit, especially when we're not winning super bowls :D

A lot of folks here know I sort of wrote off 2020, and I still don't think we make it to a Super Bowl. But maybe we will. More importantly everybody be careful... & evaluate on!

- edit: to clarify, I mean I still don't think there will be a super bowl this year, regardless of whether NE is in it
Hindsight?

The scout write ups were spot on with regards to Harry
This board immediately brought these alarming scouting reports to everyone's attention.
I read the reports and watched these videos within minutes of his drafting and proclaimed in multiple threads the guy, plain as day, can't get separation.
Furthermore, Harry demonstrated his shortcomings in every game he played in 2019
Tom Brady essentially black listed him in 2019....then escaped to Tampa

Yet on Nov. 8, 2020, you insist hindsight is 20/20.
 

Toofy

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
Can we ask harry to put on some weight and muscles and get converted to a tight end. Maybe a poor man's kittle or kelce... Gronk is ATG TE. So don't want to belittle him with the comparison...
 

PatsFanInVa

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Hindsight?

The scout write ups were spot on with regards to Harry
This board immediately brought these alarming scouting reports to everyone's attention.
I read the reports and watched these videos within minutes of his drafting and proclaimed in multiple threads the guy, plain as day, can't get separation.
Furthermore, Harry demonstrated his shortcomings in every game he played in 2019
Tom Brady essentially black listed him in 2019....then escaped to Tampa

Yet on Nov. 8, 2020, you insist hindsight is 20/20.
So here's what they said about Harry in 2019 in the first draftnik site I found when I googled his (public) scouting report:

Strengths:
  • Size mismatch
  • Makes catches over defenders
  • Use size and strength to box out defenders
  • Reliable hands
  • Late hands
  • Red-zone weapon
  • Possessional receiver to move the chains
  • Has some run-after-the-catch ability
  • Tough to tackle
  • Consistently productive
Weaknesses:
  • Lacks speed
  • Not twitchy
  • Not explosive
  • Not fast in and out of breaks
  • Lacks suddenness
  • Can't stretch a defense with speed
  • Won't separate from NFL corners with route-running
BB can google this stuff too. In the old days he could run down to CVS and buy a "draft guide" from athlon. He could even watch tape and have a whole enormous team that does likewise, and work out the candidate, and so on.

Do you think he drafted him for his speed and explosiveness? Because those are on the weaknesses side of the ledger.

Or do you think he drafted him for his strengths, see above?

I'm thinking he was drafted because he'd fight for the damn ball and catch it, that's the theory. Possession guy. To complain after the fact that he's not a burner is like complaining when you take the girl with tig bitties to the prom that she's not the leggy girl, or vice versa.

God, "Is there someone here who's lost someone lately? I'm getting a name starting with J? Is it a name starting with J? Is it Jerry, sir? Jimmy? Yes I felt that was right, I don't know why I said Jerry. Jimmy wants to tell you something. Don't worry about the money."

Come on man. Same level of dumb tricks.

Look! Proof that BB doesn't know the guy's weaknesses!!!! He drafted him even though he has weaknesses! Proof that he should have drafted somebody else: Look! Somebody drafted somebody better later!!!! I know that after a year of seeing the comps perform!

Proof that BB only lucked out when he drafts somebody who succeeds - He got lucky!!!! everybody else didn't draft him!

I'm not here to sing BB's praises in terms of wideouts or to shout to the rooftops that BB had the absolute bestest drafts ever of anybody every year, every 5 year period, and so on. I'm saying it's a crapshoot, and shouting to the rooftops whatever you guessed right on in 2019 is just not as convincing as you believe it is, unless you're also keeping an objective tally, stored ahead of time, of all your declarations right and wrong in each draft.

And that reflects back on the one "EVERYBODY AGREED ABOUT".... how about the ones they didn't agree about? Oh yeah well those, those were luck.

Maybe you get them all right in real time :D

Just like the guy who knows all the hot stocks and tells you what a goddam fortune he made but still works in accounting, I'm gonna say "because he needs the insurance?" Or maybe because "oh yeah I lost a few bucks on this penny stock and that one and that one and that one, you know, just small amounts..." And actually has no objective track of how he's done across the board, which, if he had it, would just demonstrate he should have bought into a mutual fund and called it a day?

Or the drunk girl at the casino with her sugar daddy's credit card screaming how she won a $10,000 jackpot but doesn't even realize it cost her 30k to do it?

Or maybe sometimes you're right, sometimes you're not, and "jesus I was screaming this during the draft" doesn't actually make you nostrafreakindamus of draft day... and the ability to agree with what "everybody says" isn't a whole lot more impressive.

Call me cranky and jaded, stuff like this is what fans do, I get it. You didn't want the pick of the possession receiver with an upside pretty much defined by the possibility he can learn to run better routes. Or what burns you? That you wanted some specific guys who were drafted after Harry who you now know performed well at the next level?

I'm not defending BB, I'm not defending the Harry pick (other than to say he cannot throw the ball and catch it.) I'm not even making myself out to be some draft savant. I am not knowledgeable about the draft. I just get tired of the demonstrations of clairvoyance dependent on narrowing the window to a specific pick.

It reeks of an only apparent body of knowledge (I know, I know, about NFL drafts... whoda thunk?)
 

captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
Anyone else see what Brown, Metcalf & McLaurin did yesterday...again...?

Don't know that Kneal, Harry wants to even play again...certainly not here that's for sure...
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Here in Michael Thomas who is a good receiver. Similar in size and actually slightly worse numbers at the combine. Obviously he has been a great receiver in the league because he is an excellent route runner which he uses to create separation. I don't know if Harry isn't working at being a better route runner or just can't get any better. Either way I think his ship is sailing.

 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
Here in Michael Thomas who is a good receiver. Similar in size and actually slightly worse numbers at the combine. Obviously he has been a great receiver in the league because he is an excellent route runner which he uses to create separation. I don't know if Harry isn't working at being a better route runner or just can't get any better. Either way I think his ship is sailing.

Cam is just as good as Brees, so it makes sense... :rolleyes:
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Cam is just as good as Brees, so it makes sense... :rolleyes:
I know you have some weird over the top hatred of Cam but even Cam can throw the ball 5 yards down field to a wide open guy. Harry just cant get open in a timely manner.
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
I know you have some weird over the top hatred of Cam but even Cam can throw the ball 5 yards down field to a wide open guy. Harry just cant get open in a timely manner.
Cam is ranked near dead last in attempts because they're literally afraid to let him throw, despite that he's ranked near dead last in QBR. Pretty sure he leads the NFL in turnovers.

Video evidence shows weapons wide open all over the field. Cam is horrid... when he has played slightly better all the receivers have played well. Receivers catch, they don't throw.
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Cam is ranked near dead last in attempts because they're literally afraid to let him throw, despite that he's ranked near dead last in QBR.

Video evidence shows weapons wide open all over the field. Cam is horrid... when he has played slightly better all the receivers have played well. Receivers catch, they don't throw.
Cam is playing very poorly. That is obvious. Random screen shots from people on Twitter hardly tell the whole story about guys getting open. Are guys getting open at some point, on some routes, at some points in the game? Yes, a receiver probably couldn't remain completely covered for 60 minutes if he tried but those random screenshots don't take into account which read Cam was on, whether he was trying to avoid the rush, whether they took so long to get open he was already set to scramble etc. There is almost no talent at receiver and TE right now and that is going a long way to why Cam looks the way he does.
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
Cam is playing very poorly. That is obvious. Random screen shots from people on Twitter hardly tell the whole story about guys getting open. Are guys getting open at some point, on some routes, at some points in the game? Yes, a receiver probably couldn't remain completely covered for 60 minutes if he tried but those random screenshots don't take into account which read Cam was on, whether he was trying to avoid the rush, whether they took so long to get open he was already set to scramble etc. There is almost no talent at receiver and TE right now and that is going a long way to why Cam looks the way he does.
There's nothing random about the all-22 game film, or the few journalists (former players) who bothered to do a deep dive on it, instead of simply assuming Cam is still the same player he was years ago. Cam has one of the best O-Lines in the NFL so scrambling is a poor excuse, there aren't just some players getting open, one breakdown showed two TE's wide open in the flat with James White wide open in the middle of the field on a single play and Cam standing like a statue. He has been terrible. He'll be out of the league sooner than later.
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
There's nothing random about the all-22 game film, or the few journalists (former players) who bothered to do a deep dive on it, instead of simply assuming Cam is still the same player he was years ago. Cam has one of the best O-Lines in the NFL so scrambling is a poor excuse, there aren't just some players getting open, one breakdown showed two TE's wide open in the flat with James White wide open in the middle of the field on a single play and Cam standing like a statue. He has been terrible. He'll be out of the league sooner than later.
You can yell about Cam all you want. I am not going to argue and tell you Cam is good. What I am saying is Cam has probably the worst receivers and TE's in the league right now. He is going to be throwing to practice squad level players tonight and have one active TE again. This is an embarrassingly bad skill position group Bill put together. There is no way around it.
 

dreighver

In the Starting Line-Up
Are you N'Keal's brother? Even the most ardent of homers are pretty much done with him.
Why would anyone be done with Harry? The guy has yet to play a full season in the NFL and is 22 years old. It would be extremely stupid to toss him aside.

I agree he's played poorly to this point and hasn't shown much, but to be "done" with him? It doesn't make sense from a personnel development standpoint, nor does it make sense from a fan's perspective. We want our players to develop and play well, right?
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Why would anyone be done with Harry? The guy has yet to play a full season in the NFL and is 22 years old. It would be extremely stupid to toss him aside.

I agree he's played poorly to this point and hasn't shown much, but to be "done" with him? It doesn't make sense from a personnel development standpoint, nor does it make sense from a fan's perspective. We want our players to develop and play well, right?
I would love to be wrong about him but I’ve hardly seen a glimmer of hope from him to this point in his career. I’m hoping next season we have other options and if he doesn’t get any better then he will be pushed down the depth chart. It’s starting to get to now or never territory as far as him even being an average receiver.
 

Toofy

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
Just to rub a bit...
Who are these two patriots (ex and current) WR? Their stats for 2020 given below.

Will tell u how far we have fallen...

Player 1 : 8 games, 210 yards ,9.1 yards, 2 TD
Player 2 : 6 games, 172 yards, 9.1 average , 1 TD
 
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Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
You can yell about Cam all you want. I am not going to argue and tell you Cam is good. What I am saying is Cam has probably the worst receivers and TE's in the league right now. He is going to be throwing to practice squad level players tonight and have one active TE again. This is an embarrassingly bad skill position group Bill put together. There is no way around it.
In 2014 Tom Brady threw for the 9th most passing yards and 5th most TD's in the NFL with Brandon Lafell as his WR2. It was Lafell's best season of his career. All we heard for Tom's entire career was how he made average or good WR's great, and in some cases like Lafell he did. Only in Cam's case it works in reverse, Cam is bad because of his receivers, but Brady was great because he made his receivers good. Jakobi Meyers is as talented as Lafell ever was, the starting three WR's (Edelman, Harry, Byrd) are substantially more talented than Lafell ever was.

Andrew Luck went to Indy and made them relevant instantly, Jimmy G got traded to San Francisco when they were 1-10 and won 5 straight to end the season. AJ Brown did nothing with Marcus Mariota, insert Ryan Tannehill and instantly Brown became the guy the Pats should have drafted instead of Harry.

QB's make receivers, not the reverse. The passing on the Patriots has been the worst in the league this year. Period. Brandon Lafell is a dangerous weapon in Tom Brady's hands. Cam is horrible.
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
In 2014 Tom Brady threw for the 9th most passing yards and 5th most TD's in the NFL with Brandon Lafell as his WR2. It was Lafell's best season of his career. All we heard for Tom's entire career was how he made average or good WR's great, and in some cases like Lafell he did. Only in Cam's case it works in reverse, Cam is bad because of his receivers, but Brady was great because he made his receivers good. Jakobi Meyers is as talented as Lafell ever was, the starting three WR's (Edelman, Harry, Byrd) are substantially more talented than Lafell ever was.

Andrew Luck went to Indy and made them relevant instantly, Jimmy G got traded to San Francisco when they were 1-10 and won 5 straight to end the season. AJ Brown did nothing with Marcus Mariota, insert Ryan Tannehill and instantly Brown became the guy the Pats should have drafted instead of Harry.

QB's make receivers, not the reverse. The passing on the Patriots has been the worst in the league this year. Period. Brandon Lafell is a dangerous weapon in Tom Brady's hands. Cam is horrible.
So we’re comparing current Cam to a prime Tom Brady now?
 
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