Manning is more skilled than Brady? Please explain.

[Ring 6]

to express my opinion, talk about the sport I love, and to have a good time.

Why are you here?

You just got done saying that you believe everyone can have whatever opinion they want, no one is allowed to challenge it and no one can ever win an argument. Yet you are here arguing.
This is a PATRIOTS BOARD. I am here to discuss the Patriots.
You, apparently are here to create arguments, lose them, then whine that you have a right to your opinion and it can't be wrong.
Lets have a check in under here of everyone who feels you are adding anything to the community of this board. I don't, and you are getting in the way, IMO.

 

[feldspar]

You just got done saying that you believe everyone can have whatever opinion they want, no one is allowed to challenge it and no one can ever win an argument.

That's not what I said at all. I never said anything about not being able to challenge another person's opinion; in fact, that's a big part of what a message board is all about. I spoke of the nature of opinion, is all, which isn't really hard to understand. We could talk about whether Coke is better than Pepsi for weeks, but people aren't liable to change their minds if they think Pepsi tastes better, is better for you somehow, etc.

Yet you are here arguing.

That's true.

This is a PATRIOTS BOARD. I am here to discuss the Patriots.

No "outsiders" welcome? Is that what you are suggesting? Is this a homer's board, or not? Honest question. Embrace outside influences, I'd say. Maybe you'll grow.

You, apparently are here to create arguments, lose them, then whine that you have a right to your opinion and it can't be wrong.

I didn't create the argument. The argument was there before me. The argument IS the thread. If you disagree with what I say, that only means that you have a different opinion, not that I've lost the argument...and I don't whine about it.

And, let's be real: if I have an opinion, I obviously don't think I'm wrong. C'mon now.

Lets have a check in under here of everyone who feels you are adding anything to the community of this board. I don't, and you are getting in the way, IMO.

I'm getting in the way of what? Everyone agreeing on something? When has THAT ever happened? I'm adding my honest opinion here while being attacked on all sides because it's an unpopular opinion to have here.

 

[sieglo]

I can't believe people are still debating this one.

For those who haven't heard the news, 2007 settled all discussion on this issue.

 

[RodThePat]

Well, Brady and Manning are both excellent QBs. You can argue which one is better until the moon goes down.

Manning, however, calls his own plays and does audibles...actually calls the shots a LOT more than Brady. Also, Manning hasn't had the benefit of a decent defense for much or most of his time in Indy. That's why Manning has had to shoulder the burden of his whole team in his time in Indy more than Brady has...a lot more, I'd say.

I figure Brady has had the benefit of a lot of things, including better coaching, something you shouldn't underestimate.

It would take me quite some time to consider which of these two I'd rather have on my team during his prime. But I'd have to go with Manning right now. Sorry, but he's much more accomplished. You can't pin the winning or losing of Super Bowls on one guy, so don't bring that up as an indicator.

Manning has NINE season of over 4,000 yards. His other two seasons were pretty close to 4,000...both under 300 yards to that mark. This is an incredible feat, folks. Meanwhile, Tom has had only TWO seasons of over 4,000 yards.

Brady fumbles the ball A LOT more than Manning...a lot more.

If you care about passer rating, Peyton's is higher than Tom's. His completion percentage is slightly higher.

Manning is less than a year and a half older than Brady, and Manning has...

19,128 more yards
136 more touchdowns

Manning has just done more...a lot more. Manning is probably the best pure passer I've seen. Not to put Brady down; he's damn good as well.

You asked, I told.

Peyton also has passed the ball much more than Brady in his career, and has had amazing offensive talent surrounding him in every single year he has been in the league. Also, he's played in a total of four more complete seasons relative to Brady. The "one year and a half older" argument doesn't really work.

 

[feldspar]

I can't believe people are still debating this one.

For those who haven't heard the news, 2007 settled all discussion on this issue.

I don't know about that: Manning had a comparable season in 2004, and he basically sat out the last game of the season, attempting only two passes to keep him fresh for the playoffs.

Brady 2007: 68.9% completions, 4,806 yards, 50 TDs, 8 INTs
Manning 2004: 67.6% completions, 4,557 yards, 49 TDs, 10 INTs

I feel Brady had the better season, but my point is that Manning came close to it. Had he not sat out a game, I think he would have beaten Brady's record for most TDs in a season. Also, had Belichick been the Colt's coach that year, he would have tried to knock everyone's **** in the dirt like he did in New England in 2007. The Colts let up when they had the game in hand...meanwhile the Patriots did things like go for it on fourth down when they were leading by 21 points in the fourth quarter and score a TD, something I specifically remember them doing. Had the Colts had the total "let's just cream 'em" attitude the Patriots did, I have no doubt that Manning would be the one with some of these records.

 

[Kontradiction]

Not quite on topic, but it is Brady/Manning, and with all the comments about Brady winning because of defense, I needed to post this.

Manning has been on 4 teams that were ranked top 7 in scoring defense.
Brady has been on 5.

Brady's reg season w/l record in those years is 67-11
Mannings is 49-15

In the postseason in thoe years
Brady 13-2
Manning 0-4

So for all of those arguments can someone please explain why when Manning had a top 7 defense (and there was a 1 and a 2 in there) he was one and done every year?
And he has had 4 of those season while Brady had 5, resulting in 3 SB Championships as well.

I think you just sealed the argument for Brady. Excellent post.

 

[Dirk3601215]

Not quite on topic, but it is Brady/Manning, and with all the comments about Brady winning because of defense, I needed to post this.

Manning has been on 4 teams that were ranked top 7 in scoring defense.
Brady has been on 5.

Brady's reg season w/l record in those years is 67-11
Mannings is 49-15

In the postseason in thoe years
Brady 13-2
Manning 0-4

So for all of those arguments can someone please explain why when Manning had a top 7 defense (and there was a 1 and a 2 in there) he was one and done every year?
And he has had 4 of those season while Brady had 5, resulting in 3 SB Championships as well.

Great post.

And feldspar, you still haven't posted those games that you said you did where Manning played totally fantastic but his team still lost. I'm waiting.

 

[feldspar]

Great post.

And feldspar, you still haven't posted those games that you said you did where Manning played totally fantastic but his team still lost. I'm waiting.

Here is four years of playoff defeats by the Colts right here:

Manning had 121.4 QB rating...his team lost. Manning has a 143.8 QB rating...his team lost. Manning had a 118.5 QB rating...his team lost. Manning had a 90.4 QB rating his...his team lost.

Are you going to say that it's Manning's fault that his team lost?

 

[Dirk3601215]

Here is four years of playoff defeats by the Colts right here:

Manning had 121.4 QB rating...his team lost. Manning has a 143.8 QB rating...his team lost. Manning had a 118.5 QB rating...his team lost. Manning had a 90.4 QB rating his...his team lost.

Are you going to say that it's Manning's fault that his team lost?

Um, yeah... what years are those games? I can't find those anywhere.

 

[feldspar]

Um, yeah... what years are those games? I can't find those anywhere.

It's right here: Google

2000 - 121.4 QB rating...his team lost.

2004 - 143.8 QB rating...his team lost

2007 - 118.5 QB rating...his team lost.

2008 - 90.4 QB rating...his team lost.

The Colt's went to the post-season 8 times under Manning. This is the way HALF of them ended...again, HALF. One time, he won the Super Bowl. 3 seasons ended on a bad note for Manning. Three out of eight.

 

[sieglo]

I don't know about that: Manning had a comparable season in 2004, and he basically sat out the last game of the season, attempting only two passes to keep him fresh for the playoffs.

Brady 2007: 68.9% completions, 4,806 yards, 50 TDs, 8 INTs
Manning 2004: 67.6% completions, 4,557 yards, 49 TDs, 10 INTs

I feel Brady had the better season, but my point is that Manning came close to it. Had he not sat out a game, I think he would have beaten Brady's record for most TDs in a season. Also, had Belichick been the Colt's coach that year, he would have tried to knock everyone's **** in the dirt like he did in New England in 2007. The Colts let up when they had the game in hand...meanwhile the Patriots did things like go for it on fourth down when they were leading by 21 points in the fourth quarter and score a TD, something I specifically remember them doing. Had the Colts had the total "let's just cream 'em" attitude the Patriots did, I have no doubt that Manning would be the one with some of these records.

You completely miss the point.

Before 2007, the Manning defenders argued that Manning's regular season performance was much better than Brady's, that he had more MVPs, etc. Brady defenders argued Super Bowl wins and playoff performance, and pointed out that Manning had weapons like Brady has never had, not to mention plays in a nice safe dome on turf.

The came 2007, when Brady finally had comparable skill players. Brady exceeded (slightly) Manning's best year as a Colt. He did it outside in ****ty weather. And won the MVP.

Leaving Manning defenders with no serious argument. Brady is at least comparable in regular season play. In postseason he is clearly superior.

2007 effectively ended the debate.

I expect 2009 will make it even clearer.

 

[fumbrunner]

It's right here: Google

2000 - 121.4 QB rating...his team lost.

2004 - 143.8 QB rating...his team lost

2007 - 118.5 QB rating...his team lost.

2008 - 90.4 QB rating...his team lost.

The Colt's went to the post-season 8 times under Manning. This is the way HALF of them ended...again, HALF. One time, he won the Super Bowl. 3 seasons ended on a bad note for Manning. Three out of eight.

....and the moral of the story.....Manning couldn't lead his team to victory when in counted.

 

[Dirk3601215]

It's right here: Google

2000 - 121.4 QB rating...his team lost.

2004 - 143.8 QB rating...his team lost

2007 - 118.5 QB rating...his team lost.

2008 - 90.4 QB rating...his team lost.

The Colt's went to the post-season 8 times under Manning. This is the way HALF of them ended...again, HALF. One time, he won the Super Bowl. 3 seasons ended on a bad note for Manning. Three out of eight.

Ugh. Those aren't playoff games.

You. Are. Talking. About. His. Pro. Bowl. Games.

 

[glm]

I don't know about that: Manning had a comparable season in 2004, and he basically sat out the last game of the season, attempting only two passes to keep him fresh for the playoffs.

Brady 2007: 68.9% completions, 4,806 yards, 50 TDs, 8 INTs
Manning 2004: 67.6% completions, 4,557 yards, 49 TDs, 10 INTs

I feel Brady had the better season, but my point is that Manning came close to it. Had he not sat out a game, I think he would have beaten Brady's record for most TDs in a season. Also, had Belichick been the Colt's coach that year, he would have tried to knock everyone's **** in the dirt like he did in New England in 2007. The Colts let up when they had the game in hand...meanwhile the Patriots did things like go for it on fourth down when they were leading by 21 points in the fourth quarter and score a TD, something I specifically remember them doing. Had the Colts had the total "let's just cream 'em" attitude the Patriots did, I have no doubt that Manning would be the one with some of these records.

How many games did Manning play in with horrible weather conditions?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Lots of interesting points. Let me add a couple:

1) Brady has improved his game year after year since entering the league. He is as technically sound a QB as I have ever seen...and he was hardly that when he entered the league. Manning had the goods right from the start and has largely rested on his laurels, outside of the obvious mental gains from experience. Manning is 33 and clearly showing signs of decline (won't argue that here since I've done that in other threads). Brady is a little over a year younger and pre-injury was just getting stronger.

2) Brady and Manning have evolved into different kinds of QBs, and as such require different kinds of receivers. Brady requires receivers to gain quick separation so he can make timely decisions and deliver the ball in stride. Manning (more often than not) throws to an open spot on the field, requiring his receivers to get to that spot on time. Think of the Colts' receivers as frisbee-catching dogs. Manning is the best I've seen with these timing routes, but it places a huge burden on the receivers to deliver.

3) For the question of who is more valuable to their team, I don't think it is any contest. The entire Colts' identity revolves around Manning. Skill positions, blocking scheme, defensive strategy, game decisions, etc. They need Manning to play fast-break offense for everything else to click. They can still scrap together wins without Manning marching up and down the field (see last year), but it is hardly dominant and often pretty ugly. The Pats don't depend on Brady to play a particular way and have an overall team strategy that can adjust to a variety of conditions. Take out Brady and the Pats are still a playoff-caliber team. Take out Manning and the Colts are playing for draft position.

I dunno if it's fair to say that someone's resting on their laurels when they arguably reach the pinnacle of their profession then stay there.

 

[fumbrunner]

It's right here: Google

2000 - 121.4 QB rating...his team lost.

2004 - 143.8 QB rating...his team lost

2007 - 118.5 QB rating...his team lost.

2008 - 90.4 QB rating...his team lost.

The Colt's went to the post-season 8 times under Manning. This is the way HALF of them ended...again, HALF. One time, he won the Super Bowl. 3 seasons ended on a bad note for Manning. Three out of eight.

Those are all wrong!!!
2000 - Colts lose to Mia
Indianapolis CMP ATT PCT YDS LNG YPA TD INT SCK LOSS RAT
Peyton Manning 17 32 53.1 194 30 6.06 1 0 0 0 82.0

2004 - lost to NE
Indianapolis CMP ATT PCT YDS LNG YPA TD INT SCK LOSS RAT
Peyton Manning 27 42 64.3 238 18 5.67 0 1 1 8 69.3

etc etc etc. At least get your stats right if you are trying to make an argument

 

[Deus Irae]

I think you just sealed the argument for Brady. Excellent post.

For follow up, here is Pro-Football-Reference.com:

Peyton Manning Gamelogs and Game Logs - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Manning's passer ratings in playoff losses:

62.3 (0 td, 0 int)
82.0 (1 td, 0 int)
31.2 (0 td, 2 int)
35.5 (1 td, 4 int)
69.3 (0 td, 1 int)
90.9 (1 td, 0 int)
97.7 (3 td, 2 int)
90.4 (1 td, 0 int)

Blaming the defense is a cop-out for the Manning apologists on this issue.

Also, one other thing of note: Manning has played in 15 playoff games and, given that he's been bounced early more often than Brady, he's played a higher percentage of 'lesser' opponents than has Brady. Nonetheless, he's led the Colts to fewer than 20 points on 8 occasions. Brady, in 17 playoff games and against better teams, has led the Patriots to fewer than 20 points in only 4 games.

 

[ScottieC]

I'm getting in the way of what? Everyone agreeing on something? When has THAT ever happened? I'm adding my honest opinion here while being attacked on all sides because it's an unpopular opinion to have here.

What part of www.PATSFANS.com was confusing to you?

 

[fumbrunner]

For follow up, here is Pro-Football-Reference.com:

Peyton Manning Gamelogs and Game Logs - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Manning's passer ratings in playoff losses:

62.3 (0 td, 0 int)
82.0 (1 td, 0 int)
31.2 (0 td, 2 int)
35.5 (1 td, 4 int)
69.3 (0 td, 1 int)
90.9 (1 td, 0 int)
97.7 (3 td, 2 int)
90.4 (1 td, 0 int)

Blaming the defense is a cop-out for the Manning apologists on this issue.

Bingo

@feldspar

 

[glm]

It's right here: Google

2000 - 121.4 QB rating...his team lost.

Couldn't find his stats here.

2004 - 143.8 QB rating...his team lost

His rating was 64.3.

2007 - 118.5 QB rating...his team lost.

It was 97.7.

2008 - 90.4 QB rating...his team lost.

This is like the only one you got right.

The Colt's went to the post-season 8 times under Manning. This is the way HALF of them ended...again, HALF. One time, he won the Super Bowl. 3 seasons ended on a bad note for Manning. Three out of eight.

Where the hell did you get your stats?