Kiper gives Pats 2011 draft a C+ in review (merged)

[LloydBraun]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Jump ahead 12 months:

Solder is a potential pro bowler
Vereeniging & Ridley have us as a top running team
Dowling is a solid starter; as is Cannon
Mallett has a strong preseason & is trade bait
Markell Carter has 8 sacks in a TBC role


Then, Kiper sings a different tune.

This O is top notch, but how good will it be when the young RBs are integrated? The deep threat is back? We have a top young C on board? BB is building a super offense. Not to mention the D will be improved as well.

 

[VrabelJr]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

James Carpenter was playing well before he got hurt. Seattle's future O-Line looks bright again. I think in a normal year where so many teams didn't have a need at QB and there being these once in a decade athletes like Peterson and Aldon Smith, Solder would have been a top 10 pick.

 

[patchick]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

James Carpenter was playing well before he got hurt. Seattle's future O-Line looks bright again. I think in a normal year where so many teams didn't have a need at QB and there being these once in a decade athletes like Peterson and Aldon Smith, Solder would have been a top 10 pick.

Didn't mean to scoff at Carpenter, btw, I liked him as a later prospect. Just that there's no way Solder (who makes Ryan Clady look small and slow) was going to be hanging around the board later than Carpenter, Watkins et al.

 

[captain stone]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

From that, tack on a player that before being injured looked not good, but un-fing-believable. Then take on the offensive version of Patrick Chung (take hyper-talented player, assign complex role, add sun/water/time and watch grow in year 2).....

To whom are you referring here?

(And to suggest that Lee Smith was anything more than a terrible pick makes no sense.)

 

[jays52]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

To whom are you referring here?

(And to suggest that Lee Smith was anything more than a terrible pick makes no sense.)

I believe it was the player you deemed overdrafted by a full round.

...and a first year contributor who executes exactly what he was drafted for in the 6th round is not a terrible pick by any means.

 

[Sciz]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Cameron Jordan. One of the reasons that our defense sux, besides the garbage at Safety
(aside from the just OK so far Chung - who was awful vs the jints) is the utter lack of athleticism on the DL. Jordan could've helped as a 40-front interior sub-rusher, 30-front end sub-rusher in the prevent, and at 40-front end, esp. vs. the run.

As a poster's want of Cameron Jordan approaches infinity, that poster's credibility when evaluating draft prospects approaches negative infinity...

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Vereeniging & Ridley have us as a top running team

Mad props for the Boer War reference.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Ridley has been OK so far (though I worry about his fumble vs Buffalo), but again was over-drafted
and did not fill a position of top-100 need.

I remind you that, at the time of the draft, the Pats' RB corps consisted of:

Danny Woodhead

That's it. There was no guarantee they'd even have Green-Ellis this year.

 

[Leemo]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

I have no respect for Kiper's opinion anymore due to his blatant dumbness after we drafted Rob Gronkowski. Kiper is a tool.

 

[DarrylS]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

And I thought that this was a pretty good draft, the Pats have continued to rebuild the O Line which is fairly important, drafted a couple of RB's both of whom have promise, a DB that was projected for the first round, a possible future QB and couple of other dudes who made the team.

Compare that to other teams that we face at least 2x a year.. Jets; Wilkerson & Ellis, Miami; Pouncey & Thomas, Buffalo Dareus and Williams..

I am very pleased with what happened last year..

 

[IllegalContact]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Your guys expectations for rookies are LOLridiculous.

is it? 2 games out of 2 2nd rounders. on regular contributor out of 4 picks in the 2nd and 3rd round (although mallett is understandable)

2nd rounders need to at least get on the field with some regularity in their rookie seasons or they are poor value. there are positional situations like QB that change that, but CB and RB? they should be on the field as rookies. and yeah, dowling was injured, but guess what? that was the knock on him on draft day. at the same time, still available was a guy who replaced mario williams whose team did not skip a beat defensively.....head scratcher

 

[IllegalContact]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

I remind you that, at the time of the draft, the Pats' RB corps consisted of:

Danny Woodhead

That's it. There was no guarantee they'd even have Green-Ellis this year.

just makes a bigger case for the fact that a 2nd rounder should have been able to step on the field as a rookie

 

[patchick]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

is it? 2 games out of 2 2nd rounders. on regular contributor out of 4 picks in the 2nd and 3rd round (although mallett is understandable)

2nd rounders need to at least get on the field with some regularity in their rookie seasons or they are poor value. there are positional situations like QB that change that, but CB and RB? they should be on the field as rookies. and yeah, dowling was injured, but guess what? that was the knock on him on draft day. at the same time, still available was a guy who replaced mario williams whose team did not skip a beat defensively.....head scratcher

OK, so your complaint is that this was a terrible set of draft-day decisions because 2 of the key rookies ended up injured?

That's really all I'm seeing here, because I think we can all agree that a healthy Dowling -- remember, he was a day-1 starter -- would have been hugely, immediately valuable to this team. Yep, he had a major injury history, which is why he wasn't drafted higher. It's a common tradeoff of health vs. talent. (Cf. Adrian Peterson, Rob Gronkowski.)

Anyway...looking at next year's roster, we're projecting a minimum of 3 starters from this draft in Solder, Dowling and an RB, plus Cannon, Mallett, RB #2, and a fresh first-round rookie. C-minus overall for that? Really? In a draft class that was regarded as extremely shallow?

 

[NinjaZX6R]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Cameron Jordan. One of the reasons that our defense sux, besides the garbage at Safety
(aside from the just OK so far Chung - who was awful vs the jints) is the utter lack of athleticism on the DL. Jordan could've helped as a 40-front interior sub-rusher, 30-front end sub-rusher in the prevent,
and at 40-front end, esp. vs. the run. I would've either waited until 28 for Solder, or done a trade-up after both Carimi & Castonzo were gone, whichever came first.

As for the rest of the picks:
Glas-IR Dowling was a bad pick then, and an even worse pick now. Jabaal Sheard or Brooks Reed
were the obvious choices.
Vereen was over-drafted by almost a full round, and did not fill a position of top-100 need.
Ridley has been OK so far (though I worry about his fumble vs Buffalo), but again was over-drafted
and did not fill a position of top-100 need.
Mallett provides value as hopefully a future 2nd-round pick.
Cannon is Bill's best pick of the entire draft, when value, performance & need are all considered.
By contrast, Lee Smith was Bill's worst pick, for the same reasons that Cannon was Bill's best pick.
Fresno State OLB Chris Carter, CB Chykie Brown, DE Pernell McPhee, OC Scott Fusco & FB Charles Clay
all would've made much more sense. Who knows, Ridley might still have been available.
Markell Carter would likely have been avail. with our 7th-rounder or as a UDFA; Safety Tyler Sash
from Iowa should've been the obvious choice.
And last but certainly least, Mal Williams was a complete, utter waste.
Mark Herzlich should've been the obvious, feel-good, value-for-the-future pick here.

Kiper gives Bill a C grade? Sounds right to me.

Cam Jordan it seems is nothing special. He's been a starter since mid week of the season and only has 1 sack. He might be a slow learner but I'm glad we passed on him and took Solder.

 

[Sfpat]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Cameron Jordan. One of the reasons that our defense sux, besides the garbage at Safety
(aside from the just OK so far Chung - who was awful vs the jints) is the utter lack of athleticism on the DL. Jordan could've helped as a 40-front interior sub-rusher, 30-front end sub-rusher in the prevent,
and at 40-front end, esp. vs. the run. I would've either waited until 28 for Solder, or done a trade-up after both Carimi & Castonzo were gone, whichever came first.

As for the rest of the picks:
Glas-IR Dowling was a bad pick then, and an even worse pick now. Jabaal Sheard or Brooks Reed
were the obvious choices.
Vereen was over-drafted by almost a full round, and did not fill a position of top-100 need.
Ridley has been OK so far (though I worry about his fumble vs Buffalo), but again was over-drafted
and did not fill a position of top-100 need.
Mallett provides value as hopefully a future 2nd-round pick.
Cannon is Bill's best pick of the entire draft, when value, performance & need are all considered.
By contrast, Lee Smith was Bill's worst pick, for the same reasons that Cannon was Bill's best pick.
Fresno State OLB Chris Carter, CB Chykie Brown, DE Pernell McPhee, OC Scott Fusco & FB Charles Clay
all would've made much more sense. Who knows, Ridley might still have been available.
Markell Carter would likely have been avail. with our 7th-rounder or as a UDFA; Safety Tyler Sash
from Iowa should've been the obvious choice.
And last but certainly least, Mal Williams was a complete, utter waste.
Mark Herzlich should've been the obvious, feel-good, value-for-the-future pick here.

Kiper gives Bill a C grade? Sounds right to me.

I'll bet you're also pretty good at picking lottery numbers.......a week after they've been announced.

 

[IllegalContact]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

OK, so your complaint is that this was a terrible set of draft-day decisions because 2 of the key rookies ended up injured?

That's really all I'm seeing here, because I think we can all agree that a healthy Dowling -- remember, he was a day-1 starter -- would have been hugely, immediately valuable to this team. Yep, he had a major injury history, which is why he wasn't drafted higher. It's a common tradeoff of health vs. talent. (Cf. Adrian Peterson, Rob Gronkowski.)

Anyway...looking at next year's roster, we're projecting a minimum of 3 starters from this draft in Solder, Dowling and an RB, plus Cannon, Mallett, RB #2, and a fresh first-round rookie. C-minus overall for that? Really? In a draft class that was regarded as extremely shallow?

except that dowling was a documented injury issue going into the draft, so the fact that he did wind up injured goes along with the decision to draft him.

I don't know what vereen's issues were, but the end result is the bottom line. the future successes of rookies who don't play their rookie seasons is low....out of all of them that the pats had (tate, mckenzie, jackson, klemm) the only one who ever got past a blown rookie season is ben watson....

you're giving me lots of names, but at the end of this season, starting with 6 picks in the first 3 rounds, and only solder and ridley contributing, a C-minus is about right.....long term, the grade may go up, but that's about where it belongs right now....is for the notion of it being a 'shallow' draft, there were plenty of contributors who were selected after the picks the pats made in both the same position as those picks as well as others....right now, it is what it is, and based on the quantity of picks, production has been low, there's no refuting that.

 

[IllegalContact]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Cam Jordan it seems is nothing special. He's been a starter since mid week of the season and only has 1 sack. He might be a slow learner but I'm glad we passed on him and took Solder.

I did not want jordan, but that doesn't change that collective production of the the picks the pats had in the first 3 rounds was low......hence the low grade. in fact, the collective sum for this draft has been lower than either 2009 or 2010, even though it was a better set of picks

 

[VrabelJr]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

just makes a bigger case for the fact that a 2nd rounder should have been able to step on the field as a rookie

He had a bum hamstring in camp + shortened training camp. Vereen is expected to be an all around back. Run, catch, block, three downs. It's going to take more time to work him into the system than say a guy like Ridley.

 

[VrabelJr]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

is it? 2 games out of 2 2nd rounders. on regular contributor out of 4 picks in the 2nd and 3rd round (although mallett is understandable)

2nd rounders need to at least get on the field with some regularity in their rookie seasons or they are poor value. there are positional situations like QB that change that, but CB and RB? they should be on the field as rookies. and yeah, dowling was injured, but guess what? that was the knock on him on draft day. at the same time, still available was a guy who replaced mario williams whose team did not skip a beat defensively.....head scratcher

I've never defended the Dowling pick and never will. If he didn't have his history of not finishing games he would have been a mid to high first rounder. Once Kerrigan and Watt were off the board we either need to take Solder or move out of that pick. As I said before, in other years where there weren't 4-5 teams looking for QBs and a few once in a decade athletes, Solder would have been a top 10 pick.

 

[captain stone]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

I believe it was the player you deemed overdrafted by a full round.

...and a first year contributor who executes exactly what he was drafted for in the 6th round is not a terrible pick by any means.

So are you referring to Vereen or Ridley?

And I did not call Markell Carter a terrible pick, though I would've chosen Tyler Sash instead;
I called Lee Smith a terrible pick, and that was being kind.

I do, however, dig your pic & sig.