Kiper gives Pats 2011 draft a C+ in review (merged)

[Wretch]

Kiper re-grades '11 drafts - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Gives the Pats a C- for picking a future starter at OT in Solder, OG in Cannon, a promising CB in Dowling, Ridley and getting great value in Mallet in the 3rd.

I usually don't bash commentators like Kiper because I think they are intentionally provocative to drive ratings, but Kiper is just foolish.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Mel Kiper=Derp.

 

[patchick]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Hmm...thought experiment time. Here are the dozen players taken after Solder:

Corey Liuget
Prince Amukamara
Adrian Clayborn
Phil Taylor
Anthony Castonzo
Danny Watkins
Cameron Jordan
James Carpenter
Jonathan Baldwin
Jimmy Smith
Mark Ingram
Gabe Crimini

Now, after watching their rookie years, you get your choice of them again! You get to plug your pick into this year's roster retroactively, plus keep him for the rest of his contract. Who do you choose?

If Solder is a serious candidate with a year's hindsight -- and IMO he'd have to be -- that makes him an outstanding pick, no?

Then you have a traded forward pick, a couple of rookies lost to injury, a guy in Mallett who was generally seen as a steal at the time and and who hasn't done anything to change that opinion since. And Ridley and Cannon look like grade A picks given their draft slots.

So the only possible negative grades are the injured second rounders, right? Unless he's looking more broadly at team building...but even there, establishing the OL for the long term was a super-high priority.

So...fail?

 

[patsfaninpa]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Kiper re-grades '11 drafts - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Gives the Pats a C- for picking a future starter at OT in Solder, OG in Cannon, a promising CB in Dowling, Ridley and getting great value in Mallet in the 3rd.

I usually don't bash commentators like Kiper because I think they are intentionally provocative to drive ratings, but Kiper is just foolish.

Don't forget Shane Vereen. He'll be healthy next year and have a full off-season in our strength and conditioning program. All of the rookies were behind the 8 ball because of that this year not just him. But factor his injury in too. He showed a glimpse of what he can do at the end of the KC game. He's gonna push Ridley in the future. Wouldn't give either the job yet.

 

[Stilla]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Out of NE's 1st 6 picks, 4 of them accomplished the things BB expected of them, and one overcame cancer in the process. 2 of the 6 were injured. I give BB a B+.

Our 6th round pick is still on the team, thats an accomplishment in itself.

If we took the 28th pick I would have given BB a A+.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Hmm...thought experiment time. Here are the dozen players taken after Solder:

Corey Liuget
Prince Amukamara
Adrian Clayborn
Phil Taylor
Anthony Castonzo
Danny Watkins
Cameron Jordan
James Carpenter
Jonathan Baldwin
Jimmy Smith
Mark Ingram
Gabe Crimini

Now, after watching their rookie years, you get your choice of them again! You get to plug your pick into this year's roster retroactively, plus keep him for the rest of his contract. Who do you choose?

If Solder is a serious candidate with a year's hindsight -- and IMO he'd have to be -- that makes him an outstanding pick, no?

Then you have a traded forward pick, a couple of rookies lost to injury, a guy in Mallett who was generally seen as a steal at the time and and who hasn't done anything to change that opinion since. And Ridley and Cannon look like grade A picks given their draft slots.

So the only possible negative grades are the injured second rounders, right? Unless he's looking more broadly at team building...but even there, establishing the OL for the long term was a super-high priority.

So...fail?

I was hoping Cam Jordan would fall to 28. In my mock I had us taking Jordan at 16 and Solder at 28. Obviously, Solder looks like the better player. It was an outstanding pick. Not just a decent one. Since Jordan was gone. I would have taken Cam Heyward. I thought we needed a two gap de. Thought we'd stick with the 3-4. Would have taken Sheard or Reed at 33. More than likely we will get just as good a prospect as Heyward. And, have an outstanding prospect at rb too.

 

[VrabelJr]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Kiper ****s on us every year, what else is new. Drafting "good" is all relative to position. I think for where we were we did great. Solder was by far the best player available. I agree with the above though, I was disappointed on our 28th/33rd picks. The real evaluation of a draft comes three years down the road though.

 

[patchick]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

I was hoping Cam Jordan would fall to 28. In my mock I had us taking Jordan at 16 and Solder at 28. Obviously, Solder looks like the better player. It was an outstanding pick. Not just a decent one. Since Jordan was gone. I would have taken Cam Heyward. I thought we needed a two gap de. Thought we'd stick with the 3-4. Would have taken Sheard or Reed at 33. More than likely we will get just as good a prospect as Heyward. And, have an outstanding prospect at rb too.

Agreed, I think Solder has to be a solid A grade. Sheard & Dowling were my 2 favorite prospects at 33, I thought that was too high for Reed. Would love to have Sheard but a healthy Dowling looks desperately needed for next year too.

Only real negative surprise was that Vereen never got going at all, I really liked him in the draft. Still hopeful on him.

 

[captain stone]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Hmm...thought experiment time. Here are the dozen players taken after Solder:

Corey Liuget
Prince Amukamara
Adrian Clayborn
Phil Taylor
Anthony Castonzo
Danny Watkins
Cameron Jordan
James Carpenter
Jonathan Baldwin
Jimmy Smith
Mark Ingram
Gabe Carimi

Cameron Jordan. One of the reasons that our defense sux, besides the garbage at Safety
(aside from the just OK so far Chung - who was awful vs the jints) is the utter lack of athleticism on the DL. Jordan could've helped as a 40-front interior sub-rusher, 30-front end sub-rusher in the prevent,
and at 40-front end, esp. vs. the run. I would've either waited until 28 for Solder, or done a trade-up after both Carimi & Castonzo were gone, whichever came first.

As for the rest of the picks:
Glas-IR Dowling was a bad pick then, and an even worse pick now. Jabaal Sheard or Brooks Reed
were the obvious choices.
Vereen was over-drafted by almost a full round, and did not fill a position of top-100 need.
Ridley has been OK so far (though I worry about his fumble vs Buffalo), but again was over-drafted
and did not fill a position of top-100 need.
Mallett provides value as hopefully a future 2nd-round pick.
Cannon is Bill's best pick of the entire draft, when value, performance & need are all considered.
By contrast, Lee Smith was Bill's worst pick, for the same reasons that Cannon was Bill's best pick.
Fresno State OLB Chris Carter, CB Chykie Brown, DE Pernell McPhee, OC Scott Fusco & FB Charles Clay
all would've made much more sense. Who knows, Ridley might still have been available.
Markell Carter would likely have been avail. with our 7th-rounder or as a UDFA; Safety Tyler Sash
from Iowa should've been the obvious choice.
And last but certainly least, Mal Williams was a complete, utter waste.
Mark Herzlich should've been the obvious, feel-good, value-for-the-future pick here.

Kiper gives Bill a C grade? Sounds right to me.

 

[IllegalContact]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

in my opinion, the solder pick is the only thing that has made this draft worth anything. at this point in time the 2nd round produced nothing and the 3rd got ridley, although mallett not getting any PT is understandable.

in all, the pats got poor collective production out of their rookie class

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Look, if I told you the day before the draft that the Pats would turn picks 17, 28, 33, 58, 73, and 74 into a second string tackle who looks like he could be a starter soon, two complete injury busts in the second round, a promising RB, and a 3rd string QB. Plus the 28+ and 46th picks in this years draft and you would have been happy with that?

Kiper is right, still no pass rush, a promosing young tackle, but still not one that has taken a starting job, ditto for Ridley, (neither one of those positions were a gret "need" for the Pats gong into the draft). Face it the Pats got nothing from their second round picks. Cannon was PUP for a third of the season. It was a C+ draft at best, especially when you consider the amount of high picks that the Pats had.

 

[MP-Logick]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Cameron Jordan. One of the reasons that our defense sux, besides the garbage at Safety
(aside from the just OK so far Chung - who was awful vs the jints) is the utter lack of athleticism on the DL. Jordan could've helped as a 40-front interior sub-rusher, 30-front end sub-rusher in the prevent,
and at 40-front end, esp. vs. the run. I would've either waited until 28 for Solder, or done a trade-up after both Carimi & Castonzo were gone, whichever came first.

As for the rest of the picks:
Glas-IR Dowling was a bad pick then, and an even worse pick now. Jabaal Sheard or Brooks Reed
were the obvious choices.
Vereen was over-drafted by almost a full round, and did not fill a position of top-100 need.
Ridley has been OK so far (though I worry about his fumble vs Buffalo), but again was over-drafted
and did not fill a position of top-100 need.
Mallett provides value as hopefully a future 2nd-round pick.
Cannon is Bill's best pick of the entire draft, when value, performance & need are all considered.
By contrast, Lee Smith was Bill's worst pick, for the same reasons that Cannon was Bill's best pick.
Fresno State OLB Chris Carter, CB Chykie Brown, DE Pernell McPhee, OC Scott Fusco & FB Charles Clay
all would've made much more sense. Who knows, Ridley might still have been available.
Markell Carter would likely have been avail. with our 7th-rounder or as a UDFA; Safety Tyler Sash
from Iowa should've been the obvious choice.
And last but certainly least, Mal Williams was a complete, utter waste.
Mark Herzlich should've been the obvious, feel-good, value-for-the-future pick here.

Kiper gives Bill a C grade? Sounds right to me.

 

[JackBauer]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Ridley has been OK so far (though I worry about his fumble vs Buffalo)

I got this far before I realized you're just looking for reasons to complain.

Anyway, Dowling and Vereen both showed promise when they were on the field. And yeah, it is the NFL, players get hurt, that doesn't mean they're wasted picks.

Solder and Cannon were home runs, Ridley looks to be reaching that level. Even if Dowling and Vereen never play another down, getting a franchise LT, a solid OG/OT in Cannon, and a starting RB would make this a successful draft.

 

[jays52]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

The one thing that has prevented me from being biblically pissed about not going up for Watt is how good Solder has been. The Pats got the other outrageously talented, high character, hard working, tall white dude who looks like a perennial all pro. Considering the universal measure of "good" drafting is to hit on your first rounders, I am calling the draft "good" based on that alone. By the way, is there any question left of just how good Watt is?

From that, tack on a player that before being injured looked not good, but un-fing-believable. Then take on the offensive version of Patrick Chung (take hyper-talented player, assign complex role, add sun/water/time and watch grow in year 2). Then there's what looks to be a damn good back, 1st rounder, a 2nd rounder, AND a very nice joker card in Mallet. A year in, it's looking like a really good draft.

.....aaaaaaaaand then let's think about a steal of the future right guard, the best player on the practice squad while learning a new position, aaaand a tight end who played in ten games for another team.

That is not, by any stretch of the imagination a "marginal" draft, nevermind a poor one.

 

[MP-Logick]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

The one thing that has prevented me from being biblically pissed about not going up for Watt is how good Solder has been. The Pats got the other outrageously talented, high character, hard working, tall white dude who looks like a perennial all pro. Considering the universal measure of "good" drafting is to hit on your first rounders, I am calling the draft "good" based on that alone. By the way, is there any question left of just how good Watt is?

From that, tack on a player that before being injured looked not good, but un-fing-believable. Then take on the offensive version of Patrick Chung (take hyper-talented player, assign complex role, add sun/water/time and watch grow in year 2). Then there's what looks to be a damn good back, 1st rounder, a 2nd rounder, AND a very nice joker card in Mallet. A year in, it's looking like a really good draft.

.....aaaaaaaaand then let's think about a steal of the future right guard, the best player on the practice squad while learning a new position, aaaand a tight end who played in ten games for another team.

That is not, by any stretch of the imagination a "marginal" draft, nevermind a poor one.

Watt is absolutely terrific. I'm guessing that he was never on NE's draft board, though, given that his agent is Bill Condon.

 

[jays52]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Watt is absolutely terrific. I'm guessing that he was never on NE's draft board, though, given that his agent is Bill Condon.

I think the concept of a Condon exclusion clause is pretty silly. If they like a player enough they'll take him regardless of agent, *especially* one as good a fit as Watt. Hell, just last year they took Cannon who is represented by CAA. I'd be willing to put money on them having him in the top 7 players available.

 

[VrabelJr]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Your guys expectations for rookies are LOLridiculous.

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Look, if I told you the day before the draft that the Pats would turn picks 17, 28, 33, 58, 73, and 74 into a second string tackle who looks like he could be a starter soon, two complete injury busts in the second round, a promising RB, and a 3rd string QB. Plus the 28+ and 46th picks in this years draft and you would have been happy with that?

Short attention span theater. You do realize that you can acquire players before they are absolutely needed. You also described each pick in the least flattering terms. Look at your descriptions:

- Solder "could be a starter soon". Started 13 games already.
- Dowling "complete injury bust". Started the 1st two games and looked like the Pats best cover DB
- Vereen "complete injury bust". Had hammy issues (like a lot of players) but wasn't needed due to health of top 3 RBs.
- Ridley "promising RB". Averaged over 5 ypc and looks to be a key factor heading into the playoffs.
- Mallett "3rd string QB". So you don't believe in investing in QBs?
- Cannon ?????? You must have forgot about him.

You can criticize that they could have done better with different players, but it is hard to question the value of the players they did get. Add in 2 top 50 players in a top-heavy 2012 draft and there is nothing average about the Pats draft moves.

Kiper is right, still no pass rush, a promosing young tackle, but still not one that has taken a starting job, ditto for Ridley, (neither one of those positions were a gret "need" for the Pats gong into the draft). Face it the Pats got nothing from their second round picks. Cannon was PUP for a third of the season. It was a C+ draft at best, especially when you consider the amount of high picks that the Pats had.

The Pats got 20 sacks for a relative modest FA investment during a weird, abbreviated offseason. How many starts does Solder need to have before he is considered starter quality? For a RBBC situation, is "games started" a better metric than YPC? As for Cannon, Vereen and Dowling, they have had limited chances for a variety of reasons but each has looked solid in the opportunities they did get. Assuming their health situations aren't chronic, why lump them in with players who couldn't make the team or get on the field? Doesn't it make sense to draft a talented QB before they are actually needed (paging the Polians)?

Based on what we know now and can reasonably project, a C+ grade for the players THIS YEAR seems a little low. But Mallett and Cannon (both early round 2 values) were growth stocks that were never intended to derive value this soon. Considering that and the extra picks in 2012, grading the 2011 draft PROCESS as anything but an A at this point doesn't make much sense. The investments still could go bust and that grade could crash, but indications are positive so far.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

in my opinion, the solder pick is the only thing that has made this draft worth anything. at this point in time the 2nd round produced nothing and the 3rd got ridley, although mallett not getting any PT is understandable.

in all, the pats got poor collective production out of their rookie class

What do you want from a team picking outside the top 10?

These are the rookie contributors going into Saturday's game:

OT Solder- Starter at RT

RB Ridley- Starting RB or #2 RB, gives the position a needed boost

OL Cannon- Reserve at T/G

CB/S Moore-Will either start at CB, be the NB, or play S.

Thats four rookies with three playing in major roles Saturday.

 

[patchick]

Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

The one thing that has prevented me from being biblically pissed about not going up for Watt is how good Solder has been.

Watt was my binky too, but I can't get "biblically pissed" about them not getting a player who went that far ahead of their pick. I am desperately curious, though, whether and how badly they wanted Watt. (I mean, nobody was projecting him to the Texans...for all we know the Pats could have been working on a deal to move up with Minnesota at #12. Or not wanted him at all. :confused2

But Solder is a lot more than just a consolation prize, IMO. As for the claim of another poster that he would have been there at 28, that strikes me as a total flight of fancy. I mean, James Carpenter was gone at 25.