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Kiper gives Pats 2011 draft a C+ in review (merged)

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Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

I remind you that, at the time of the draft, the Pats' RB corps consisted of:

Danny Woodhead

That's it. There was no guarantee they'd even have Green-Ellis this year.

RBs = Dime a Dozen.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Cam Jordan it seems is nothing special. He's been a starter since mid week of the season and only has 1 sack. He might be a slow learner but I'm glad we passed on him and took Solder.

Fair point re Jordan. I did expect more from him this season.
However, perhaps with coaching from Bill & Pepper, he might've been more productive here;
and I still believe that Solder would not have been drafted until both Carimi & Costanzo were gone,
so a trade-up from 28 could've worked.

I would be less upset with this draft if Bill had gone Solder then either Wilkerson/Heywood
or Sheard/Reed, instead of the never-will-be Glas-IR.
 
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Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

I'll bet you're also pretty good at picking lottery numbers.......a week after they've been announced.

No hindsight here; this is exactly how I felt on Draft Weekend.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

So are you referring to Vereen or Ridley?

And I did not call Markell Carter a terrible pick, though I would've chosen Tyler Sash instead;
I called Lee Smith a terrible pick, and that was being kind.

I do, however, dig your pic & sig.

Why was Lee Smith a terrible pick? He was a 5th rounder and by all accounts the best blocking TE in the draft. He got caught in a numbers game in NE (the Pats are a championship level team after all) and the Pats tried to sneak him on to the PS. He was quickly claimed and spent the full season on an active roster. Not a bad outcome for a 5th round pick.

As often as the Pats used a 3 TE formation, I'm sure he would have been activated during the season had he made it to the PS.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Why was Lee Smith a terrible pick? He was a 5th rounder and by all accounts the best blocking TE in the draft. He got caught in a numbers game in NE (the Pats are a championship level team after all) and the Pats tried to sneak him on to the PS. He was quickly claimed and spent the full season on an active roster. Not a bad outcome for a 5th round pick.

As often as the Pats used a 3 TE formation, I'm sure he would have been activated during the season had he made it to the PS.

This. Lee Smith was a great grab in the 5th. The rest of the league knew it and grabbed him ASAP once we more or less had to release him.

Regarding the comment of RBs = a dime a dozen, 99% of this board said the reason the Jets whooped us in the playoffs was because we didn't have any RBs to make teams honor the run. We go out and grab two RBs and now people are calling them bad picks. Which is it folks?
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

He had a bum hamstring in camp + shortened training camp. Vereen is expected to be an all around back. Run, catch, block, three downs. It's going to take more time to work him into the system than say a guy like Ridley.

I don't like kiper, but the only thing you have to go by is what draft picks were used and what has been gotten out of them so far. conventional wisdom has it that 2nd year guys will typically be better than rookies. the guys who are injured as rookies, we'll see....its almost a death sentence for WR to miss their rookie seasons.....I think vereen has a good shot since I am not sure he would have gotten more playing time if he was healthy, plus, he was healthy enough to practice for a decent part of the season ... he's been around..... my fear with dowling is that he will show more promise next year, only to fall before th leaves do...he's got good size and talent, so the pats could certainly use that and the opportunity will be there.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

This. Lee Smith was a great grab in the 5th. The rest of the league knew it and grabbed him ASAP once we more or less had to release him.

Regarding the comment of RBs = a dime a dozen, 99% of this board said the reason the Jets whooped us in the playoffs was because we didn't have any RBs to make teams honor the run. We go out and grab two RBs and now people are calling them bad picks. Which is it folks?

it wasn't that good if the pats never got anything out of him.

the jets beat the pats because they showed up ready to play while thepats were busy disciplining welker
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Fair point re Jordan. I did expect more from him this season.
However, perhaps with coaching from Bill & Pepper, he might've been more productive here;
and I still believe that Solder would not have been drafted until both Carimi & Costanzo were gone,
so a trade-up from 28 could've worked.

I would be less upset with this draft if Bill had gone Solder then either Wilkerson/Heywood
or Sheard/Reed, instead of the never-will-be Glas-IR.

I'm not going to cry over spilled milk, but reed/barwin would have been nice to have now.......and both were reasonbly well known quantities come draft day......jake bequette in 2012, please
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Fair point re Jordan. I did expect more from him this season.
However, perhaps with coaching from Bill & Pepper, he might've been more productive here;
and I still believe that Solder would not have been drafted until both Carimi & Costanzo were gone,
so a trade-up from 28 could've worked.

I would be less upset with this draft if Bill had gone Solder then either Wilkerson/Heywood
or Sheard/Reed, instead of the never-will-be Glas-IR.


Colts and Giants were interested in taking Solder. He was their 2nd highest rated OT behind Ty Smith. Look at Costanzo, he didn't have much of a high ceiling but he had a good floor. So far he doesn't look anything special. He's basically Matt Light. Good, 1-2 All Pro in his career, couple of pro bowls but that's about it.
Solder on the other hand, has a ceiling of Joe Thomas or even better. You will get constant All pro effort from him.

Compared to all the tackles taken in the 1st round-Smith, Solder, Costanzo, Camiri, Carpenter and that tackle the Packers took.

Out of those, Smith had the highest ceiling. Solder was next. Only Costanzo and Camiri had a big floor. Which means, at worst, they would be a decent OT at worst.
Looking at their body of works now, Solder would have gone first within the top 10 pick over T Smith. Costanzo looks ok but nothing special.

As for Reed, I'll pass. He is just a pure speed rusher. That's about it. No other moves with him. He isn't a good run defender. Can't set the edge. I'll pass.

As for Sheard. I agree but let's see what Dowling as to offer next season before we consider him an injury bust.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

I don't like kiper, but the only thing you have to go by is what draft picks were used and what has been gotten out of them so far. conventional wisdom has it that 2nd year guys will typically be better than rookies. the guys who are injured as rookies, we'll see....its almost a death sentence for WR to miss their rookie seasons.....I think vereen has a good shot since I am not sure he would have gotten more playing time if he was healthy, plus, he was healthy enough to practice for a decent part of the season ... he's been around..... my fear with dowling is that he will show more promise next year, only to fall before th leaves do...he's got good size and talent, so the pats could certainly use that and the opportunity will be there.

I'm not sure Brandon Harris, CB from Miami picked several slots after Ras-I by Houston, ever saw the field this year. He had no injuries and he's on a team with no DB depth. Not every 2nd rounder has the opportunity to get on the field immediately.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

it wasn't that good if the pats never got anything out of him.

the jets beat the pats because they showed up ready to play while thepats were busy disciplining welker

I think this is a key comment on one draft evaluating perspectives --- what was the team's pay-off for each pick, and from this PoV, Smith was not a good pick as the Pats got nothing from him besides a training camp warm body.

The other perspective, argued to advance the counter-argument, is how good is a team at drafting NFL capable players. In this case, Smith is a reasonable successful pick as he played a full season for an NFL team. The argument is basically a process argument that the Patriots' college scouting system is able to identify NFL capable players even if the Pats roster is not particurly accomodative to that pick. There will be an occassional leaker like Smith, but as long as the process continually produces a high % of successful picks, the Pats will be OK depth wise.

In early rounds, I agree with the What did He Do for the Pats as a means of evaluation, but as the draft hits the 5th, 6th and 7th rounds, success means IDing NFL capable talent.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

You can't be serious that because a 5th round draft pick couldn't make the roster of a team that was 14-2 and has the depth of talent that the Pats have, that it was a "bad" pick? It's not like Smith was taken in the second round. The Pats had like 12 players they cut who were picked up by other teams (by far more than any other team). The competition for bottom of the roster spots on the Pats was intense and all indications were that the Pats wanted him around. I'm not sure that any 5th round pick could have made the roster.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

it wasn't that good if the pats never got anything out of him.

the jets beat the pats because they showed up ready to play while thepats were busy disciplining welker

WTF does this have to do with this discussion? Stop contemplating it and just jump off the ledge negative Nancy.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Cameron Jordan. One of the reasons that our defense sux, besides the garbage at Safety
(aside from the just OK so far Chung - who was awful vs the jints) is the utter lack of athleticism on the DL. Jordan could've helped as a 40-front interior sub-rusher, 30-front end sub-rusher in the prevent,
and at 40-front end, esp. vs. the run. I would've either waited until 28 for Solder, or done a trade-up after both Carimi & Castonzo were gone, whichever came first.
WOW You couldn't be more wrong in this first comment. Solder has arguably been the best OLman taken in the draft. He's been more consistent than the kid from Dallas who was also good, but much more versatile. To think he was goiung to be around at 28 is just plain stupid.

As for Jordan, who was one of my binkies, the Pats added TWENTY sacks at the position that Jordan played. What more would he have added. Is he THAT much more "athletic" than Anderson or Carter....if at all. I would hate having him, but he was never going to be where we could take him

As for the rest of the picks:
Glas-IR Dowling was a bad pick then, and an even worse pick now. Jabaal Sheard or Brooks Reed
were the obvious choices.
You could be right about Dowling's ability to stay healthy, but you couldn't be more wrong about his ability ON the field. IF he can stay healthy he will turn out to be a hugely successful pick

I liked Sheard, but again, how much more would he have added to what we got from Anderson and Carter. Reed is a one trick pony who will never be more than a situatiional pass rusher and was picked too high as it was. Bottom line, as it has been shown, Sheard was a legit target at 33, but the need, as it has been shown, was in the DB, and that's where we went.

Vereen was over-drafted by almost a full round, and did not fill a position of top-100 need.
Ridley has been OK so far (though I worry about his fumble vs Buffalo), but again was over-drafted and did not fill a position of top-100 need.
That over drafted crap is meaningless in the real world. Was Mankins over drafted, was Volmer over drafted. BS. Ridley has been the 2nd best rookie RB in the league this year. AND BOTH those guys filled in a huge need at RB

Mallett provides value as hopefully a future 2nd-round pick.
Cannon is Bill's best pick of the entire draft, when value, performance & need are all considered.
I understand this pick better. Now don't hate it, but I still don't LIKE it, since we won't see the value for another 3 years
By contrast, Lee Smith was Bill's worst pick, for the same reasons that Cannon was Bill's best pick.
Fresno State OLB Chris Carter, CB Chykie Brown, DE Pernell McPhee, OC Scott Fusco & FB Charles Clay all would've made much more sense. Who knows, Ridley might still have been available
Now you are getting into the world of pure guess and smug 20-20 hindsight. Its always easy for every fan to criticize picks that don't work out down here. There are certainly enough of them

BB hit a home run on his first pick - His second showed well but gets an injury incomplete - ditto for the 3rd. His 4th has out played expectations and could be a HR. Mallet will back up Brady for the next 3 years and could be very good at it. Cannon could be another HR in the next year or two. He certainly outplayed expectations this year.

If you stop right there that's 6 picks that will likely play significant roles during their rookie contracts, and 4 will likely end up being starters. That's a pretty good draft regardless of how you look at it.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Kiper re-grades '11 drafts - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Gives the Pats a C- for picking a future starter at OT in Solder, OG in Cannon, a promising CB in Dowling, Ridley and getting great value in Mallet in the 3rd.

I usually don't bash commentators like Kiper because I think they are intentionally provocative to drive ratings, but Kiper is just foolish.

I don't think it was a great draft but a C- is a little harsh.

1st round - franchise LT
2nd round - Ras Dowling - jury is out but the guy is made of glass, I have very little confidence in his ability to stay on the field, plus their were impact players at positions of dire need (OLB anyone)
2nd round - Vereen - I don't think I will ever like this pick, RBs are so easy to find in later rounds or via free agency
3rd round - Ridley - seems like a pretty solid pick but again, RBs are easy to find, I don't see much difference between Ridley and Helu or Green and they were taken a round or two later. Still looks ik, nothing to complain about
3rd round - Mallett - value pick at a premium position, I guess. Lets hope he never plays

Any pick after round 3 is pretty much a long shot, shuffle the deck anyway you want it still comes out as camp fodder in most cases

5th round - Cannon - big gamble that looks to pay off

5th round pick - Smith - big TE, can't hurt, get a blocking TE who can play teams

6th - Carter - jury out, zero expectations. Best case plays special teams

7th - Williams -any 7th rounder that plays snaps in year 1 is a good pick


I say B-, if you swap Dowling for Sheard and Vereen for Torrey Smith or Demarcus Murray it is an out of the park home run.

No one is perfect and the organization can feel good that they have a solid set of OTs for a long time.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Cameron Jordan. One of the reasons that our defense sux, besides the garbage at Safety
(aside from the just OK so far Chung - who was awful vs the jints) is the utter lack of athleticism on the DL. Jordan could've helped as a 40-front interior sub-rusher, 30-front end sub-rusher in the prevent,
and at 40-front end, esp. vs. the run. I would've either waited until 28 for Solder, or done a trade-up after both Carimi & Castonzo were gone, whichever came first.

As for the rest of the picks:
Glas-IR Dowling was a bad pick then, and an even worse pick now. Jabaal Sheard or Brooks Reed
were the obvious choices.
Vereen was over-drafted by almost a full round, and did not fill a position of top-100 need.
Ridley has been OK so far (though I worry about his fumble vs Buffalo), but again was over-drafted
and did not fill a position of top-100 need.
Mallett provides value as hopefully a future 2nd-round pick.
Cannon is Bill's best pick of the entire draft, when value, performance & need are all considered.
By contrast, Lee Smith was Bill's worst pick, for the same reasons that Cannon was Bill's best pick.
Fresno State OLB Chris Carter, CB Chykie Brown, DE Pernell McPhee, OC Scott Fusco & FB Charles Clay
all would've made much more sense. Who knows, Ridley might still have been available.
Markell Carter would likely have been avail. with our 7th-rounder or as a UDFA; Safety Tyler Sash
from Iowa should've been the obvious choice.
And last but certainly least, Mal Williams was a complete, utter waste.
Mark Herzlich should've been the obvious, feel-good, value-for-the-future pick here.

Kiper gives Bill a C grade? Sounds right to me.
You're aware the Cameron Jordan has done virtually nothing for the Saints despite playing upwards of 320 snaps where he's rushed the passer?
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Evaluating a draft after one year anyway - stupid.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Ha...all of us dissing Kiper, and none of us actually bothered to click the link to the article! Kiper actually gave the Patriots a C-plus. So, um, we kind of suck.

Anyway, what does that C-plus mean? Well, consider that it's the exact same grade he gave the New Orleans Saints. Here's the Saint's draft class:

Cameron Jordan: Kiper describes him as a disappointment, who "faces ceiling questions now after a rookie season in which he wasn't able to deliver much as a pass-rusher."

Mark Ingram: Kiper seems to like him ok, but for a 2nd and a future 1st, Ingram's numbers look a lot like BJGE's with his foot injury. Ridley looked much, much better.

Wilson, Patrick, Romeus, Bussey: These four defensive players together combined for fewer starts than Ras-I Dowling.

That's it -- despite trading away their 2012 #1 to the Patriots. That's what a Kiper C+ draft looks like. Not a single pick you can point to as clearly good. And that simply isn't the Patriots' draft class.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

in my opinion, the solder pick is the only thing that has made this draft worth anything. at this point in time the 2nd round produced nothing and the 3rd got ridley, although mallett not getting any PT is understandable.

in all, the pats got poor collective production out of their rookie class

Solder Starting 13 games and playing 16 at an important position when we have an all pro QB pro bowl talent at Tackle.

Ras-I started almost every game until he was injured. (If you complain about picking players with injury history then we wouldn't have gronk)

Vereen RB was unfortunately injured his hamstring which seems to have kept him down. But i will give the haters that this has been dissapointing. (even tho he looked quick when he got game time and his 1st NFL TD)

Ridley RB Has been a surprise to most pats fans and has performed very well with a YPC of 5. If your not happy with that in a running back by committee then your very hard to please.

The 2 RB picks were made at a time where we only had one RB on the roster so were necessary. Doesn't matter if you think RB's were a dime a dozen. The argument that this means they should have got more playing time during the season is irrelivant because as it turns out we brought back our #1 RB and faulk before the season so it was business as usual but the pats needed to plan for the situation that BJGE didn't come back and thats what they did.

Mallett was value and very good value

Cannon as a 5th rounder has been playing games at Tackle and hasn't looked out of place. Great value.

Carter, Smith, Williams are the only picks we havent seen on the field for the pats (mallett excluded). Smith go caght out in a numbers game but is an NFL talent as seem with his play this year. Williams and Carter have stuck with our practice squad.

So in summary very very solid draft. Could have been outstanding except 2 key picks were injured during the season.
 
Re: Wow Kiper Misses the Point

Why was Lee Smith a terrible pick? He was a 5th rounder and by all accounts the best blocking TE in the draft. He got caught in a numbers game in NE (the Pats are a championship level team after all) and the Pats tried to sneak him on to the PS. He was quickly claimed and spent the full season on an active roster. Not a bad outcome for a 5th round pick.

As often as the Pats used a 3 TE formation, I'm sure he would have been activated during the season had he made it to the PS.

What numbers game? If Bill wanted to keep a 3rd/blocking TE on the 53, he could've re-signed
Algae Crumpler, or any other TE on the street, or not placed Smith on waivers in the first place.

After 6 picks, Bill had drafted only 1 defender: Glas-IR.
What's wrong with expecting him to grab another defender,
esp. when our obvious needs at Safety & Pass-Rusher are considered?
 
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