How Good Does Mac Have To Be To Get His Option Picked Up?

[Joker]

No, the syndrome involves what you and a few others here do -- obsessively push the Brady vs. BB narrative, dump on Kraft, Mac, etc. and generally disparage the Patriots in the interest of appearing "knowledgeable" while condemning those who dare offer optimistic takes as "cheerleaders."

You obviously enjoy trolling yet deny being a troll. Some trolls aren't aware of what they are, others are. Some gaslight, divert or play ignorant. You either aren't aware of being a troll or are playing ignorant, only you can answer which. Of course, you have chosen to intentionally misinterpret the linked definition from which your trolling was specified. Obviously, trolling covers a wide spectrum from simply being an obnoxious PITA on sites like this to more malicious (criminal) intent.

Dunning–Kruger effect, the tendency for unskilled individuals to overestimate their own ability and the tendency for experts to underestimate their own ability.

 

[Patriot Missile]

The reality is, defenses can't be relied upon to win you games and you have to have an offense that shows up when these types of games gets out of control. I think Mac made some strides week 18 against the Bills keeping up and even taking the lead against the Bills until the mid 3rd quarter, but they ran out of gas due to the lack of talent/coaching.

The last Patriots SB was basically won by the defense by a 13-3 score. The defense was also a huge factor in the @KC matchup where they held them scoreless in the first half. Seattle won one as well as few years earlier. TB d was also a huge factor vs the Chiefs but that game was overall played well in every aspect by TB. Pretty much a masterpiece when it comes to a complete victory vs the new passing league.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

We're really measuring defensive performance by points per game? What is this, 2008?

That sure seems to be the most relevant stat, no? Points scored/allowed directly, literally, correlate with winning/losing.

It’s not the only defensive stat but it’s tremendously important.

The offense and special teams can give up points. The offense could be terrible in which case the defense spends more minutes on the field which inevitably will lead to more more points allowed per game even though the points allowed per defensive minute might be lower. Usually stats even out in a random situation, but an NFL team's offensive performance is not random (does not average out over a season) so having poor offenses that turn the ball over more frequently, or surrender the ball at a higher average starting line of scrimmage, etc., are not random situations. I think that is what RodThePat is saying. This is why DVOA was developed but that is limited too. And there are points scored by the defense that have to be factored in too. I am not a stats nerd, but have seen a few good posts over the years that made me realize it is multi-faceted to define a defense.

 

[rochrist]

The last Patriots SB was basically won by the defense by a 13-3 score. The defense was also a huge factor in the @KC matchup where they held them scoreless in the first half. Seattle won one as well as few years earlier. TB d was also a huge factor vs the Chiefs but that game was overall played well in every aspect by TB. Pretty much a masterpiece when it comes to a complete victory vs the new passing league.

Plus, the year that Denver crushed Carolina.

 

[Ring 6]

You’ve been arguing this entire time Brees carrying the 32nd worst defense in the league wasn’t a deterrent to winning.

That’s you saying defense doesn’t matter.

Stop your BS.

I did not argue that at all. You argued it with yourself.

 

[Ring 6]

The offense and special teams can give up points. The offense could be terrible in which case the defense spends more minutes on the field which inevitably will lead to more more points allowed per game even though the points allowed per defensive minute might be lower. Usually stats even out in a random situation, but an NFL team's offensive performance is not random (does not average out over a season) so having poor offenses that turn the ball over more frequently, or surrender the ball at a higher average starting line of scrimmage, etc., are not random situations. I think that is what RodThePat is saying. This is why DVOA was developed but that is limited too. And there are points scored by the defense that have to be factored in too. I am not a stats nerd, but have seen a few good posts over the years that made me realize it is multi-faceted to define a defense.

No statistic represents anything other than what is counts up.
No ranking is perfect. When you accumulate statistics over a period of time concluding they mean something different than they mean is wrong.
For example team A having more passing yards than team B only means it passes for more yards. It doesn’t correlate directly to more points or more wins.
The value of points allowed is simply the performance of that team on one side of the only really important statistic, the one hat wins games, points.
The defense that allows the fewest points (with the caveat of takeaways) is the best defense. WHY they were the best defense can include other statistics, as well as favorable impact from offense and special teams but THAT they were the best defense is indisputable.

The same goes for the SB Champ being the best team. The only definition of the goal for NFL teams is winning the SB. The best team is the one that is best at achieving the ultimate goal. Opinion never overrules achievement.

 

[Ring 6]

You’ve been arguing this entire time Brees carrying the 32nd worst defense in the league wasn’t a deterrent to winning.

That’s you saying defense doesn’t matter.

Stop your BS.

Again you tellingly ignore the entire post so you can incorrectly respond to one sentence. Is this you tap out?

 

[TheRainMaker]

TB d was also a huge factor vs the Chiefs but that game was overall played well in every aspect by TB.

They aren't in that position without a QB that could lead the offense.

The last Patriots SB was basically won by the defense by a 13-3 score.

But how did they get there? They didn't win like that every game of the season.

The defense was also a huge factor in the @KC matchup where they held them scoreless in the first half. Seattle won one as well as few years earlier.

They cracked and allowed 31 points in the 2nd half. Without the offense, they lose.

 

[Patriot Missile]

They aren't in that position without a QB that could lead the offense.

But how did they get there? They didn't win like that every game of the season.

They cracked and allowed 31 points in the 2nd half. Without the offense, they lose.

Well I’m glad they spotted Brady that 14 point lead to start the second half. You have a funny way of looking at things. Of course you need a QB to lead the offense but Without the 1st half shut out do the Patriots win? Does Brady have to score 48?

Does it matter how they got there? Coaches with their two weeks drew up the quarters scheme and won the game. There’s been plenty of great game plans over the years, plenty of flops too, they’re all human.

I’m not bashing either of them. QB matters but so does the head coach. When you get both it creates superiority that we’ve seen from teams over the past. The 49ers, Cowboys, Steelers, Packers etc. Extremely rare to see a Hall of fame coach without great players or the one QB.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

The last Patriots SB was basically won by the defense by a 13-3 score. The defense was also a huge factor in the @KC matchup where they held them scoreless in the first half. Seattle won one as well as few years earlier. TB d was also a huge factor vs the Chiefs but that game was overall played well in every aspect by TB. Pretty much a masterpiece when it comes to a complete victory vs the new passing league.

I'm guessing he meant that it can't be relied on in that i cannot carry you throughout a whole season, or to a title by themselves.

Obviously the defense won the Rams super bowl in 2018. But Brady still had to be impeccable against the Chiefs before then, because our defense obviously wouldn't be able to hold a QB like Mahomes scoreless for a whole game.

2013 Seahawks still had a complementary offense. Wilson still had some clutch wins as well during the season, and he and Lynch were overall good.

2015 Denver is the last team to really get by with their defense carrying them constantly. And you have to go back to the 2000 ravens to get another one.

This pats defense needs to be an all time defense on the level of 2015 Denver for us to win. And hey, I won't rule it out! If Gonzalez can be revis 2.0 and Keion White can be an elite pass rusher opposite Judon, we may have something. We'll see.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

Again you tellingly ignore the entire post so you can incorrectly respond to one sentence. Is this you tap out?

He does this a lot... he intentionally simplifies or exagerrates your points to make it easier to refute. Even if you call it out he still continues...

 

[Wozzy]

I did not argue that at all. You argued it with yourself.

Everyone can go back a couple pages and read what you wrote.

You seem to struggle with reality and perhaps the english language.

I won't pick on the mentally challenged.

 

[Wozzy]

He does this a lot... he intentionally simplifies or exagerrates your points to make it easier to refute. Even if you call it out he still continues...

WTF are you talking about?

He clearly argued Drew Brees Saints teams from 2014-2016 having defenses ranked 32nd or close to that were not a significant factor in his inability to win games. I called bllsht... and now his defection is "I never said that."

Anyone can go back and read the discussion we were having.

He can't explain it because it's indefensible... now he's simply pretending he didn't say it.

 

[Wozzy]

This pats defense needs to be an all time defense on the level of 2015 Denver for us to win.

Based on what? How much of the 2023 Patriot's offense have you seen?

 

[Wozzy]

Again you tellingly ignore the entire post so you can incorrectly respond to one sentence. Is this you tap out?

The rest of your post was an incomprehensible word salad of nonsense.

Just because a defense gives up more points in a playoff game against another playoff caliber team doesn't mean the caliber of their defense drops or is worse. It means the opposing offense was that good.

Shootouts happen, the same way defensive battles happen.

Sentences like "Is this you tap out" makes me wonder if you have all of your facilities.

 

[Wozzy]

The offense and special teams can give up points. The offense could be terrible in which case the defense spends more minutes on the field which inevitably will lead to more more points allowed per game even though the points allowed per defensive minute might be lower. Usually stats even out in a random situation, but an NFL team's offensive performance is not random (does not average out over a season) so having poor offenses that turn the ball over more frequently, or surrender the ball at a higher average starting line of scrimmage, etc., are not random situations. I think that is what RodThePat is saying. This is why DVOA was developed but that is limited too. And there are points scored by the defense that have to be factored in too. I am not a stats nerd, but have seen a few good posts over the years that made me realize it is multi-faceted to define a defense.

I seriously thought Rod was joking when he said that... but maybe he wasn't.

Points is the most important stat in football. Turnovers is #2, because it most directly correlates to points.

The best defenses in the NFL can be determined by "points per drive" and "forced turnovers." DVOA is garbage.

As far as the playoffs go, teams play better teams... so scoring can be completely out of whack... high or low.

Also teams like the 2017 Patriots can suffer catastrophic injuries right before or during the playoffs (Hightower, Alan Branch, Jon Jones, Chung) that can completely decimate that unit. It doesn't mean they weren't good during the regular season, it means they weren't good in the playoffs due to injury. In other words... they got worse. Teams can get better or worse over the course of a regular season, 17 games is a long time.

Often this game seems complicated, people make it seem complicated... it's not. We're moving an inflated pig's bladder up and down a grass field.

 

[crawhammer]

No, the syndrome involves what you and a few others here do -- obsessively push the Brady vs. BB narrative, dump on Kraft, Mac, etc. and generally disparage the Patriots in the interest of appearing "knowledgeable" while condemning as "cheerleaders" those who dare offer optimistic takes.

You obviously enjoy trolling yet deny being a troll. Some trolls aren't aware of what they are, others are. Some gaslight, divert or play ignorant. You either aren't aware of being a troll or are playing ignorant, only you can answer which. Of course, you have chosen to intentionally misinterpret the linked definition from which your trolling was specified. Obviously, trolling covers a wide spectrum from simply being an obnoxious PITA on sites like this to more malicious (criminal) intent.

Rubbish.

I don't dump on Kraft too much. For his part in it he badly mishandled the Brady situation.

I had optimistic takes for two decades. I had the team winning the Super Bowl most seasons (notable exceptions being 2006, 2013, and 2019). The team should have won 5 Super Bowls in a row from 2014 to 2018. Belichick ****ed up 2015 and 2017. They underachieved from 2005 to 2013, nearly a decade with no SB title with Brady at the top of his game.

But no, I wasn't optimistic with Cam. Were you? I wasn't optimistic with Patricia. Were you? I'm not optimistic with Mac and an average supporting cast against a heavily stacked AFC. Are you?

Here's you're basic problem with my opinions on the team... I don't follow the IBWT model. Belichick has a 28-season head coaching career. His individual legacy has gotten exaggerated because of his extremely fortunate collaboration with a 6th round draft pick who turned out to be the greatest player in the history of the league.

All of BB's head coaching success is tied to Brady. 18 seasons, 17 division titles, 9 Super Bowl appearances, 6 Super Bowl championships with Brady. 10 seasons, 0 division titles, 1 playoff win without Brady.

Meanwhile, Brady without BB in only 3 seasons: 2 division titles, 3 postseason appearances, 5 postseason wins, 1 Super Bowl championship.

You want to disagree with or dispute any of the above, then fine, have at it. Or not. Either way I stand by the data (all factual) and my opinions. But for you to label it trolling is lazy, a copout, and flat out false.

 

[Ring 6]

Everyone can go back a couple pages and read what you wrote.

You seem to struggle with reality and perhaps the english language.

I won't pick on the mentally challenged.

So these are your tactics huh?
Create an argument I didn’t make that you want to argue against.
Get called out that I never said that and instead of showing where I did, lie and say “everyone knows”
Then project your mental issues on me?
Interesting. It’s no wonder you have the reputation here that you do.

 

[Ring 6]

The rest of your post was an incomprehensible word salad of nonsense.

Just because a defense gives up more points in a playoff game against another playoff caliber team doesn't mean the caliber of their defense drops or is worse. It means the opposing offense was that good.

Shootouts happen, the same way defensive battles happen.

Sentences like "Is this you tap out" makes me wonder if you have all of your facilities.

No the rest of my post was facts and setting straight the bs you are spewing.

You said Brees couldn’t be expected to win because his team gave up 28.25 ppg. I showed you 5 PLAYOFF games where Brady was 5-0 when his team gave up 28.4 ppg. So it would seem Brady has rings because he can win “shootouts” and Brees has 1 because he can’t.

Yes mistyping your as you is certainly an egregious error that there is no way you could comprehend.

 

[jimnance]

Rubbish.

I don't dump on Kraft too much. For his part in it he badly mishandled the Brady situation.

I had optimistic takes for two decades. I had the team winning the Super Bowl most seasons (notable exceptions being 2006, 2013, and 2019). The team should have won 5 Super Bowls in a row from 2014 to 2018. Belichick ****ed up 2015 and 2017. They underachieved from 2005 to 2013, nearly a decade with no SB title with Brady at the top of his game.

But no, I wasn't optimistic with Cam. Were you? I wasn't optimistic with Patricia. Were you? I'm not optimistic with Mac and an average supporting cast against a heavily stacked AFC. Are you?

Here's you're basic problem with my opinions on the team... I don't follow the IBWT model. Belichick has a 28-season head coaching career. His individual legacy has gotten exaggerated because of his extremely fortunate collaboration with a 6th round draft pick who turned out to be the greatest player in the history of the league.

All of BB's head coaching success is tied to Brady. 18 seasons, 17 division titles, 9 Super Bowl appearances, 6 Super Bowl championships with Brady. 10 seasons, 0 division titles, 1 playoff win without Brady.

Meanwhile, Brady without BB in only 3 seasons: 2 division titles, 3 postseason appearances, 5 postseason wins, 1 Super Bowl championship.

You want to disagree with or dispute any of the above, then fine, have at it. Or not. Either way I stand by the data (all factual) and my opinions. But for you to label it trolling is lazy, a copout, and flat out false.

Gawd you're so full of shi.t