How Good Does Mac Have To Be To Get His Option Picked Up?

[Ring 6]

WTF are you talking about?

He clearly argued Drew Brees Saints teams from 2014-2016 having defenses ranked 32nd or close to that were not a significant factor in his inability to win games. I called bllsht... and now his defection is "I never said that."

Anyone can go back and read the discussion we were having.

He can't explain it because it's indefensible... now he's simply pretending he didn't say it.

If I “clearly argued” what I really didn’t then you could quote the argument.
You can’t do you post bs.

 

[Wozzy]

No the rest of my post was facts and setting straight the bs you are spewing.

You said Bree’s couldn’t be expected to win because his team gave up 28.25 ppg. I showed you 5 PLAYOFF games where Brady was 5-0 when his team gave up 28.4 ppg. So it would seem Brady has rings because he can win “shootouts” and Bree’s has 1 because he can’t.

Yes mistyping your as you is certainly an egregious error that there is no way you could comprehend.

Drew Brees team defense was ranked at or near 32nd worst for the entire 16 game season for three straight years (2014-2016) while he led the league in passing. Dead last in the league.

5 of your handpicked playoff games doesn’t prove anything except Tom Brady was consistently the best QB on consistently the best team.

Brees was on a bad team. They were exceptional offensively and horrible defensively.

A QB can help run a scheme complementary to his own defense, but a QB can’t make a horrible defense good. That’s a delusion.

Comprehend?

 

[Ring 6]

Drew Brees team defense was ranked at or near 32nd worst for the entire 16 game season for three straight years (2014-2016) while he led the league in passing. Dead last in the league.

5 of your handpicked playoff games doesn’t prove anything except Tom Brady was consistently the best QB on consistently the best team.

Brees was on a bad team. They were exceptional offensively and horrible defensively.

A QB can help run a scheme complementary to his own defense, but a QB can’t make a horrible defense good. That’s a delusion.

Comprehend?

None of this has anything to do with the points I have been making.
The defining differences in a QB are what they do when the game is on the line, not the passing yards they accumulate.
Brady would win more with a bad defense than Brees and would win more with a good defense than Brees. Brees had better cumulative stats, Brady was a better QB who made plays to decide games whether the defense was playing well or not.

 

[Ring 6]

Drew Brees team defense was ranked at or near 32nd worst for the entire 16 game season for three straight years (2014-2016) while he led the league in passing. Dead last in the league.

5 of your handpicked playoff games doesn’t prove anything except Tom Brady was consistently the best QB on consistently the best team.

Brees was on a bad team. They were exceptional offensively and horrible defensively.

A QB can help run a scheme complementary to his own defense, but a QB can’t make a horrible defense good. That’s a delusion.

Comprehend?

If your excuse for Brees is that he couldn’t be expected to win when he had to overcome 28.25 ppg, he had a 21-27 record, then the fact that Brady in the post season in the years you referenced won 5 of 5 when his team allowed an average of 28.4 OTA absolutely relevant and perfectly illustrates why you judge football players by there play, not an accumulation of stats.

Or are we going to start arguing the greatest of Kirk Cousins?

 

[Wozzy]

If your excuse for Brees is that he couldn’t be expected to win when he had to overcome 28.25 ppg, he had a 21-27 record, then the fact that Brady in the post season in the years you referenced won 5 of 5 when his team allowed an average of 28.4 OTA absolutely relevant and perfectly illustrates why you judge football players by there play, not an accumulation of stats.

Or are we going to start arguing the greatest of Kirk Cousins?

Drew’s Brees is second on the all-time TD’s and Yards list to Tom Brady. He’s one of the greatest QB’s in history.

“Wins” is a team stat, not a QB stat. No matter how you try to muddy the waters.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Either Mac earns a contract extension this year, or they will let him walk after year 4 (or trade him before year 4). I doubt, they want to pay him $25 mil, and "hope" he suddenly explodes in year 5. The Giants were in this exact predicament with their Jones. They did not pick up his 5th year option, and then he played much better in year 4, so they had to sign him to a long term contract extension, because if they franchised him they would not have been able to franchise Saquon. Obviously in hindsight, they wished they had picked up Jones' 5th year option, now they are stuck with him for a few more years.

I think this year is "it" for Mac, either he breaks out into a franchise QB, or the Pats move on.

One scenario to keep an eye on is if Jimmy G somehow gets hurt (again), would Josh trade for Mac mid-season? (knowing that then the Raiders would be able to pick up his 5th year option in the off-season and assuming the Pats are already out of it be mid-season).

 

[Ring 6]

Drew’s Brees is second on the all-time TD’s and Yards list to Tom Brady. He’s one of the greatest QB’s in history.

“Wins” is a team stat, not a QB stat. No matter how you try to muddy the waters.

So if a qb puts up numbers but chokes and never wins he is better in your mind than a qb who puts up lesser numbers but makes decisive plays and wins?
This is what you are arguing.
You play the game to win, not to pad stats. Wins is absolutely a QB stat, just as it’s a LB stat, OL stat, etc. The QB just has the most impact on the outcome.

Thinking a Qb has no accountability to winning is unbelievable.

 

[Ring 6]

Drew’s Brees is second on the all-time TD’s and Yards list to Tom Brady. He’s one of the greatest QB’s in history.

“Wins” is a team stat, not a QB stat. No matter how you try to muddy the waters.

So Brees losing when his team allows 28.25 ppg and Brady winning when his team allows 28.4 is just some kind of mystical event and has nothing to do with them, their play, or their ability to play best when the game is on the line?

 

[Froob]

make the playoffs...WIN a playoff game...(my personal feeling is 5/12 is not out of the question, given the start he faces...8/9, 9/8 is NOT good enough if this team has aspirations of getting back to where they are accustomed.)

I don’t think I’d put a team success number on Mac given how tough the schedule is.

But we do need a much better version of Mac than we saw last year obviously. I thought he’d played pretty well post bye despite awful playcalling.

 

[Wozzy]

So if a qb puts up numbers but chokes and never wins he is better in your mind than a qb who puts up lesser numbers but makes decisive plays and wins?

Brees was tops in game winning drives, his team still won 7 games three years straight.

This is what you are arguing.

Drew Brees is third all-time in NFL game winning drives behind only Brady and Peyton. He rarely choked. He was ultra clutch.

You play the game to win, not to pad stats. Wins is absolutely a QB stat, just as it’s a LB stat, OL stat, etc. The QB just has the most impact on the outcome.

You’re blaming the QB position for other parts of the team sucking.

Thinking a Qb has no accountability to winning is unbelievable.

This is dumb. QB’s have a major impact offensively towards winning, they have minimal impact on defense, special teams or coaching… and it’s a team sport.

 

[Wozzy]

So Brees losing when his team allows 28.25 ppg and Brady winning when his team allows 28.4 is just some kind of mystical event and has nothing to do with them, their play, or their ability to play best when the game is on the line?

You’re comparing a really bad team to a really good team and pretending they’re the same… they’re not.

Brees led the 2nd highest scoring team in the NFL, his team won 7 games because his defense was horrible.

Defense either matters or it doesn’t, you want it both ways.

 

[rochrist]

So Brees losing when his team allows 28.25 ppg and Brady winning when his team allows 28.4 is just some kind of mystical event and has nothing to do with them, their play, or their ability to play best when the game is on the line?

I believe the 28.25 ppg avg is a season average, while the 28.4 average is just post season. I'd be surprised if a defense that gave up 28.25 points a game for an entire season didn't give up markedly more in the playoffs. But I'm too lazy to try and find the stats.

 

[Tunescribe]

Rubbish.

I don't dump on Kraft too much. For his part in it he badly mishandled the Brady situation.

I had optimistic takes for two decades. I had the team winning the Super Bowl most seasons (notable exceptions being 2006, 2013, and 2019). The team should have won 5 Super Bowls in a row from 2014 to 2018. Belichick ****ed up 2015 and 2017. They underachieved from 2005 to 2013, nearly a decade with no SB title with Brady at the top of his game.

But no, I wasn't optimistic with Cam. Were you? I wasn't optimistic with Patricia. Were you? I'm not optimistic with Mac and an average supporting cast against a heavily stacked AFC. Are you?

Here's you're basic problem with my opinions on the team... I don't follow the IBWT model. Belichick has a 28-season head coaching career. His individual legacy has gotten exaggerated because of his extremely fortunate collaboration with a 6th round draft pick who turned out to be the greatest player in the history of the league.

All of BB's head coaching success is tied to Brady. 18 seasons, 17 division titles, 9 Super Bowl appearances, 6 Super Bowl championships with Brady. 10 seasons, 0 division titles, 1 playoff win without Brady.

Meanwhile, Brady without BB in only 3 seasons: 2 division titles, 3 postseason appearances, 5 postseason wins, 1 Super Bowl championship.

You want to disagree with or dispute any of the above, then fine, have at it. Or not. Either way I stand by the data (all factual) and my opinions. But for you to label it trolling is lazy, a copout, and flat out false.

Your entire orientation is negative and critical, spun around baseless hatred for Bill Belichick. Much of what you post indicates fundamental misunderstanding (or ignorance) of how things work on a professional football team ie., dismissing the myriad moving parts BB managed enabling two decades of excellence with Brady. Without BB, Brady would not have won six titles in New England and of course, vice versa.

I'm not one of those "IBWT" guys you disparage but probably close to it. The man is not infallible. He is, however, one of the game's best-ever head coaches and will sorely be missed when he's gone. All NFL head coaches achieving sustained runs of success did so with great players -- Walsh/Montana, Noll/Bradshaw, Levy/Kelly, Reid/Mahomes, Shanahan/Elway, Johnson/Aikman, etc., etc. Parsing out BB's record sans Brady and calling him mediocre is not only pointless, it makes you look ridiculously clueless. But I assume that no amount of basic common sense will dissuade you from grinding that axe.

As for Brady winning in Tampa: yes, of course, he was the prime difference maker, but a near all-star supporting cast of players helped him over the top in 2020. As that roster dwindled, so did the Bucs' fortunes. Above all, it remains a team game. Myopically focusing on and crediting (or blaming) one coach or one player misses the point. That's the rubbish you wallow in.

 

[Ring 6]

Brees was tops in game winning drives, his team still won 7 games three years straight.

Drew Brees is third all-time in NFL game winning drives behind only Brady and Peyton. He rarely choked. He was ultra clutch.

You’re blaming the QB position for other parts of the team sucking.

This is dumb. QB’s have a major impact offensively towards winning, they have minimal impact on defense, special teams or coaching… and it’s a team sport.

So now you just want to lie? Brees has 5 4th quarter comebacks in the 3 years you referenced. And 27 not comebacks. He was not “tops”

Do you really think that winning fewer games but having some of them be comebacks is a great thing? Again, you should why people who rely on statistics say dumb things. Cumulative statistics because you played 20 years are even dumber.

Again you want to absolve the QB from any impact on winning when he has the largest impact.

 

[Ring 6]

You’re comparing a really bad team to a really good team and pretending they’re the same… they’re not.

Brees led the 2nd highest scoring team in the NFL, his team won 7 games because his defense was horrible.

Defense either matters or it doesn’t, you want it both ways.

No I am comparing 2 QBs in a situation where their defense allowed 28-ish ppg.
You say the guy who was 21-27 couldn’t do anything about that and I say look at the other guy who did. How are the patriots allowing 28.4 a really good team and the saints allowing 28.25 a really bad team?

I never, ever said defense doesn’t matter. I’ve reiterated that numerous times. You can’t make a point without lying about mine. That’s very telling. You should quit while you are behind and end thr embarrassment.

 

[Ring 6]

I believe the 28.25 ppg avg is a season average, while the 28.4 average is just post season. I'd be surprised if a defense that gave up 28.25 points a game for an entire season didn't give up markedly more in the playoffs. But I'm too lazy to try and find the stats.

Let me explain.
The argument is that Brees would have won the SB 3 years in a row if he had a good defense but went 7-9 each year, and that is no reflection on him.
They allowed 28.25 per game. So the argument is if your defense allows 28.25 per game you can’t win.
Brady won 5 of 5 playoff games in 14,16,18 (the other season he cited) when the defense allowed 28.4 per game.
It wasn’t a comparison of game to game or season to season but an argument showing that QBs absolutely can overcome that level of defense.
Since he handed Brees 2 of Brady’s lombardis with his comment it seemed appropriate.

 

[rochrist]

Let me explain.
The argument is that Brees would have won the SB 3 years in a row if he had a good defense but went 7-9 each year, and that is no reflection on him.
They allowed 28.25 per game. So the argument is if your defense allows 28.25 per game you can’t win.
Brady won 5 of 5 playoff games in 14,16,18 (the other season he cited) when the defense allowed 28.4 per game.
It wasn’t a comparison of game to game or season to season but an argument showing that QBs absolutely can overcome that level of defense.
Since he handed Brees 2 of Brady’s lombardis with his comment it seemed appropriate.

My point is that good defenses are naturally going to allow more PPG in the postseason because they're playing the iron of the league. So it isn't really an apples-to-apples comparison to point to a regular season avg and compare it to a postseason avg. That's all. I certainly don't think Brees would have won three in a row, but I also think he was better than making it to only one SB in 16 years and I put that on Payton for his coaching and the organization for not building a team around him.

 

[Ring 6]

My point is that good defenses are naturally going to allow more PPG in the postseason because they're playing the iron of the league. So it isn't really an apples-to-apples comparison to point to a regular season avg and compare it to a postseason avg. That's all. I certainly don't think Brees would have won three in a row, but I also think he was better than making it to only one SB in 16 years and I put that on Payton for his coaching and the organization for not building a team around him.

Being able to win when your team allows 28 points is apples to apples.
If you want to say the patriot defense was better, sure, but on the day they allowed just as many points they did no more to help the team win than any other defense that allowed 28 points.

I’ll put it a different way.
If defense A allows 28 points every game and the team goes 4-12
And defense B allows 0 in 8 games and 28 in 8 others and the team goes 14-2 (8-0/6-2) for 8 games team B had the same defense as team a (as far as ability to win is concerned) and team B had a far better qb.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

One scenario to keep an eye on is if Jimmy G somehow gets hurt (again), would Josh trade for Mac mid-season? (knowing that then the Raiders would be able to pick up his 5th year option in the off-season and assuming the Pats are already out of it be mid-season).

TBH, I have a strong suspicion that trading Mac mid-season ends with Belichick not coaching the team in 2024.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Mac Jones: I'm going to do everything I can to earn respect inside the Patriots' building

Patriots quarterback Mac Jones knows he took a step backward in his second season, and he says he's committed to righting the ship.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com