(Edited Title:) Writer thinks Zappe is winning the QB "battle"?

[Wozzy]

Right. So far I think Mac's draft profile almost nailed it. A high floor low ceiling guy. The team can win WITH him but I don't think he's shown yet that they can win BECAUSE of him. The draft was tough - the Pats clearly needed a QB and unless they wanted to gamble on Trask or Mills then Mac was the only call. The more talented and hyped guys were all taken.

As for the Bills maybe @GreenCow would know better but feels like there's a few parallels between JP Losman-Trent Edwards and Mac-Zappe. Losman was the first rounder, good athlete, supposed to be the next guy, he won the starting job in his first camp, had a solid first season, got hurt, Edwards took over and when Losman was ready the fans demanded Edwards keep playing even though I'm not sure he really did anything on the field to warrant the promotion. I think they also simplified the offense for Edwards and that helped them win games anyway.

I don't think the draft profile accounted for one thing, Mac had to get stronger and has done that.

Losman couldn't throw for accuracy, not in college, not in the pros... there's very little in common with either Mac or Zappe, who both have shown the ability to throw for accuracy.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

Lazar is a strange guy. He's a completely different person on PU than he is on Twitter. On the show he seemed really down on Mac and his unwillingness to challenge the defense and take NFL window throws, opting to check down too often when guys are open and being indecisive. And then you look at his feed and there's no indication of that sentiment at all.

I was asking myself the same thing. Last year, Evan was in Mac camp but there was some week where Evan was criticizing Mac on PU but it wasn’t at all reflected in his post game review.

 

[sb1]

I don't think the draft profile accounted for one thing, Mac had to get stronger and has done that.

Losman couldn't throw for accuracy, not in college, not in the pros... there's very little in common with either Mac or Zappe, who both have shown the ability to throw for accuracy.

Really? Not as accurate as our guys but I didn't think he had accuracy problems coming out of college? Was very accurate downfield. I thought when he was on the move he was not Mahomes accurate but he wasn't bad either. He did throw off his back foot quite a bit.

 

[Kasmir]

The more talented and hyped guys were all taken.

You mean like Zach Wilson, Trey Lance and Justin Fields? You would be happier if we had one of them?

 

[Ian]

Nothing has been handed to him like Jones.

You must not have followed Jones in college or the 2021 preseason when the coaches kept piling more on the kid's plate to see if he could really handle everything as he went against Newton. Jones also had to fight extremely hard to earn the job in Alabama (Saban made it extremely tough on him to finally ascend up the depth chart) and the initial feeling by most of us at the time - and even Belichick, based on some of his early comments - expected Jones to sit behind Newton that first season. Nothing was "handed" to him. I don't know what his life was like in high school, but since he got to college and now the NFL, it's been more of an uphill battle for him.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the underdog and I hope Zappe continues to do well because it's better for everybody. But Jones hasn't been gifted anything, other than maybe his job back after he got hurt last year.

 

[sb1]

You mean like Zach Wilson, Trey Lance and Justin Fields? You would be happier if we had one of them?

Well some being more “hyped” than “talented” I guess.

If the Patriots traded up for Fields it would have been interesting to see the reaction in NE if he had a rookie season here like he did in Chicago…

 

[Toofy]

Well some being more “hyped” than “talented” I guess.

If the Patriots traded up for Fields it would have been interesting to see the reaction in NE if he had a rookie season here like he did in Chicago…

Exactly. Fields ran well but as a passer was terrible. 60% completion rate .

And we completely ignore the fact that Mac had 0 coaching rather negative coaching for the entire year . So rather than taking 1 step forward , Mac regressed 2-3 steps back because of Bills decision .

We just need to treat this year as Macs sophomore year and just erase out last year's bias or observations . It's pointless.

 

[Rob0729]

It’s pretty clear that Bill thought that after his rookie year Mac could do more but he was mistaking.

After Mac came back from injuries they also changed the offense for him and went back to the short game to try to limit his turnovers. They were a lot less agressive than the first 3 games.

They did change the offense as the season went along, but that doesn't mean they tailored it to maximize the strengths of the offense. And they needed to because, taking Mac Jones out of the equation, they had to. They probably had the worst tackle situation in the league. And their receivers were not getting separation. So whether they had Zappe or Jones, they had to change things up. They didn't change the offense only for Jones or even possibly primarily because of Jones.

But they didn't consistently give Jones a play action passing game from under center like they gave Zappe until the first half of the last game of the season. And even then they abandoned it in the second half.

Again, Patricia came in trying to run an offense that was not suited for the personnel he had. He clearly didn't have the o-line nor the receivers to run a more vertical offense with a lot of zone blockings and stretch plays. But that is what he wanted to run.

 

[Rob0729]

You must not have followed Jones in college or the 2021 preseason when the coaches kept piling more on the kid's plate to see if he could really handle everything as he went against Newton. Jones also had to fight extremely hard to earn the job in Alabama (Saban made it extremely tough on him to finally ascend up the depth chart) and the initial feeling by most of us at the time - and even Belichick, based on some of his early comments - expected Jones to sit behind Newton that first season. Nothing was "handed" to him. I don't know what his life was like in high school, but since he got to college and now the NFL, it's been more of an uphill battle for him.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the underdog and I hope Zappe continues to do well because it's better for everybody. But Jones hasn't been gifted anything, other than maybe his job back after he got hurt last year.

Yeah, I remember someone in the media saying that Jones never had a real QB competition and wondered if he could handle it. But the guy has constantly had to fight for his job. Last year was the first time in his career as a starter going into a season where he didn't have earn the position in the preseason.

 

[sb1]

Exactly. Fields ran well but as a passer was terrible. 60% completion rate .

And we completely ignore the fact that Mac had 0 coaching rather negative coaching for the entire year . So rather than taking 1 step forward , Mac regressed 2-3 steps back because of Bills decision .

We just need to treat this year as Macs sophomore year and just erase out last year's bias or observations . It's pointless.

Fields looked better last year but in his rookie year I was surprised seeing him get sacked so much because he couldn't escape a rush. That's not what he was advertised to be.

Still amazed that everyone except BB knew the coaching mess last year would turn out the way it did. His hubris torpedoed a season and might have done permanent damage to Mac's development. And deliberately or not he egged on a QB controversy with the Bears game that didn't need to happen.

 

[Rob0729]

I believe that Zappe has worked harder because he wants the job more.

Nothing has been handed to him like Jones.

You are basing that on nothing. But all accounts, Jones is an extremely had working QB and a fierce competitor. No one questions his work ethic. Of all the knocks against the guy, I have never heard one knock being that he doesn't work hard enough and takes his position for granted.

 

[Ian]

You are basing that on nothing. But all accounts, Jones is an extremely had working QB and a fierce competitor. No one questions his work ethic. Of all the knocks against the guy, I have never heard one knock being that he doesn't work hard enough and takes his position for granted.

They're lucky to be in this position. If Jones succeeds, great, they've got a good young QB for the future. If he falters, they've got a solid young player in Zappe who has already shown he can play in this league. It doesn't need to be so polarizing.

They've honestly got potentially the second best backup they've ever had (Brady was obviously the backup in 2001 behind Drew) and they've got him for two more seasons. We should honestly just be thankful it's no longer the starter and Hoyer sitting there if things go wrong. I'm sort of glad that's no longer the case and I'm glad they drafted the kid. Although after that fourth season, I'm sure he'll probably land somewhere else if he keeps progressing.

 

[Ring 6]

See, I think you can be very competitive with Matt Ryan, or even the Kirk Cousins of the world. The problem with the Bills is they never even got close to that caliber of player, save for two seasons of Bledsoe. But if that guy isn't enough, then they shouldn't have drafted Mac Jones in the first place, because to me becoming Matt Ryan would be his 99.999 percentile outcome. I think there is value in having that kind of player, and so do they. If you don't, then Mac Jones is a waste of time.

You need to build a team around the QB no matter how good the QB is.
No team wins just because of the QB.
What happens is that highlights show big plays and the QB is part of the highest percentage of big plays. It leads to people thinking plays that make highlight reels are the only plays that matter out of a game that has 140-ish plays.

Secondly every player is his own player. Jones already is different than Ryan, and in no way is destined to turn into what someone else was. Ryan was a few decisions away, and a better defense away from having a very different career.

 

[Rob0729]

They're lucky to be in this position. If Jones succeeds, great, they've got a good young QB for the future. If he falters, they've got a solid young player in Zappe who has already shown he can play in this league. It doesn't need to be so polarizing.

They've honestly got potentially the second best backup they've ever had (Brady was obviously the backup in 2001 behind Drew) and they've got him for two more seasons. We should honestly just be thankful it's no longer the starter and Hoyer sitting there if things go wrong. I'm sort of glad that's no longer the case and I'm glad they drafted the kid. Although after that fourth season, I'm sure he'll probably land somewhere else if he keeps progressing.

Yeah, I think Jones is better than Zappe and I don't think Zappe will be anything more than a solid back up. But if I am wrong and Zappe wins the starting job and becomes a solid starting QB, I will be happy as a pig in bleep that the Pats got a solid starting QB.

I just don't get why there are people who hate Mac so much that they are practically rooting for him to fail. I think there is a least one or two people on this board who would probably rather Jones be a complete bust so they can be right about him than turn into the second coming of Tim Brady. I don't get it.

I root for the team to be successful even players I may not like. I don't get why any Pats fan would do otherwise.

 

[Ring 6]

Fields looked better last year but in his rookie year I was surprised seeing him get sacked so much because he couldn't escape a rush. That's not what he was advertised to be.

Still amazed that everyone except BB knew the coaching mess last year would turn out the way it did. His hubris torpedoed a season and might have done permanent damage to Mac's development. And deliberately or not he egged on a QB controversy with the Bears game that didn't need to happen.

He made a decision. It didn’t work. What was the alternative?
He trusted that coaches he had very high regard for could step in and be a bridge from one OC to the next. It didn’t work.
If he kept Lombardi and made him OC or gave the job to Caley would the results have been different? Maybe? Significantly different? I doubt it.
Then what? Give up on your hand picked successor after 1 year?

 

[Ian]

Yeah, I think Jones is better than Zappe and I don't think Zappe will be anything more than a solid back up. But if I am wrong and Zappe wins the starting job and becomes a solid starting QB, I will be happy as a pig in bleep that the Pats got a solid starting QB.

I just don't get why there are people who hate Mac so much that they are practically rooting for him to fail. I think there is a least one or two people on this board who would probably rather Jones be a complete bust so they can be right about him than turn into the second coming of Tim Brady. I don't get it.

I root for the team to be successful even players I may not like. I don't get why any Pats fan would do otherwise.

I don't know of anyone who played quarterback in high school or college who didn't believe they were better than the other guy. It's just how they're wired. Zappe spent the offseason - I'm sure - planning on pushing Jones in camp and ensuring Belichick has him in the back of his mind if he's ever not pleased with what he's seeing from Jones.

I agree with you on people rooting for Jones to fail, which is an odd thing that I don't understand. At the same time, I'm not a fan of being negative about Zappe either because he's obviously part of the team and has done everything right up to this point. He looked confident the other day and I'm sure he believes he should be out there because that's just how those guys work.

But like you said, I'd rather just sit back and watch it play out because all of this will ultimately work itself out. Granted, only one guy can play, but I'll probably follow him just like I did for Garoppolo and Cassell when those guys were traded (and when Hoyer was the starter in Cleveland and Houston, and Mallett too for that matter). Or, same with Mac if Zappe ends up starting and they move him. The NFL is sort of crazy in that sense, and I don't see the point of killing one guy in favor of another unless things are going really poorly. It will all sort itself this season anyway.

 

[Wozzy]

Really? Not as accurate as our guys but I didn't think he had accuracy problems coming out of college? Was very accurate downfield. I thought when he was on the move he was not Mahomes accurate but he wasn't bad either. He did throw off his back foot quite a bit.

He was terrible, and a horrible first round pick. Look at his junior year in college, his first year throwing major pass attempts. He completed 57% of his passes and threw double digit interceptions. Then his senior year completed 59% and still threw double digit interceptions. I remember my nickname for him leaving college was "Lose man" when people tried to pump him up on the Boston.com/forums.

Accuracy is pretty easy to measure, all you need to look at is completion percentage/interceptions versus pass attempts, to judge upside look at yards per attempt. If you're a 60% passer in college, knock 5-10% off that in the pros. This isn't an exact science, but it's really accurate.

Sure, there are example of unrefined college players like Josh Allen who were project players with upside, but they are few and far between.

There are also examples like Lamar Jackson who, through scheme and guile, the Ravens have made his accuracy look better than it actually is. But look what happens when he plays the best defenses in the league, defenses that can hem him in and force him to make tight window throws from the pocket in order to win. He can't do it, that's why he gets bounced from the playoffs every season.

Playoff defenses are better defenses, especially as you get out of the wildcard round and move on. Accuracy is at a premium in December and January.

 

[XLIX]

Because they coached Zappe differently. They managed him and gave him safe throws and tried to call plays that suited him. They didn’t do that with the offense when Mac was on the field.

So the coaching staff which you yourself called arguably the worst in NFL history magically became competent and talented for Zappe...

Do you really not see how ridiculous you sound???

 

[Kontradiction]

Because they coached Zappe differently. They managed him and gave him safe throws and tried to call plays that suited him. They didn’t do that with the offense when Mac was on the field.

Mac Avg Y/A = 6.5
Zappe Avg Y/A = 8.5

I’m not a Zappe guy either. But what you’re saying just is not true, even when adjusted for sample size. If you feel that what you’re saying is true, give us the throws/routes they gave Mac that they didn’t give Zappe.

 

[Rob0729]

Mac Avg Y/A = 6.5
Zappe Avg Y/A = 8.5

I’m not a Zappe guy either. But what you’re saying just is not true, even when adjusted for sample size. If you feel that what you’re saying is true, give us the throws/routes they gave Mac that they didn’t give Zappe.

That is misleading. They managed Zappe's throws and he has small sample size. Look at the Bears' game where he was awful in the second half. He only threw 22 times and had a 8.4 YPA. That is because he had one 43 yard pass. If he passed 30 times in that game, his average would be lower. Zappe threw 92 passes in 2022. Mac Jones threw 442.

Only one starting QB in the league had a higher than 8.4 YPA in 2022. Tom Brady's YPA was 6.3 last year. Justin Herbert's and Aaron Rodgers' were 6.8.

You cannot compare YPA attempt for a back up who plays only a few games and the coaching staff picked and chose when he would throw to give him favorable match ups to a full time starter.

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