Defense - old, slow, bad

[DropKickFlutie]

Pats need upgrades on the defense, yes.

1. A stout run stuffing two-gap NT. Fortunately those can be had in middle rounds if the scouting is good. Big man who can move and are stout at the point of attack, I know they are somewhat rare. But pure run stuffers are generally not as in high demand as pass rushing DTs. We got that type already in Barmore. Now we need the big stout 'Ted Washington' type to complete the DL.

2. A sideline to sideline linebacker who can shut down wide runs and occasionally cover passing lanes inside the hashmarks. It's time for BB to leave the 2000's and realize that you really need a specialist speedy linebacker even if the guy is only 230 lbs sopping wet. Yes I know he loves the lumbering 250-260 lb linebackers, but they just aren't quick enough to fill that niche role to defend against modern offenses where the TEs really are nearly as dangerous as the wide receivers, and the runningbacks are often asked to catch out of the backfield or can burn you badly with just one big cut and run.

3. Any upgrade over Joejuan 'brainfreeze' Williams. Another of BB's failed experiments. JJW is too slow and indecisive to play outside corner. He'll get burned by speed every time. Color me just as unimpressed by Jalen "I got Overpaid just to get Burned' Mills. Offenses aren't dumb, if there's a weak link, they'll attack it instead of passing the ball into harms way against our #1 CB.

4. Last but not least, BB needs to resign JC Jackson. Dude is a stud and just entering his prime years. I don't think you'll find a better free agent replacement on the market this year. I don't see any Gilmore 2.0s waiting to be picked up. I shudder to think just how BAD our defense will become if either JJ Williams or Jalen Mills are forced to play a #1 CB role.

I just took a quick glance but this dude VJC has been on fire all over the place with phenomenal points.

.

 

[Scotty]

 

[Steve102]

But they just have to coach it better, I've been told. I wonder if that means firing Little Stevie and/or Mayo. If it weren't for the 85 Super Bowl this would be our worst playoff loss. Heads need to roll.

The 2009 Ravens loss was worse. That was a much better team. I suspect the problems with that unit and with this D are similar, age and speed, coupled with a lack of buy in and likely some locker room dissention. I'd be interested in knowing who this years Adalius Thomas and Shawn Springs are. To your point, heads need to roll and changes need to be made.

Lots of people talking about "where's Winovich?" IMO, he is done in Foxboro. That is a huge disappointment. I wanted to have this guy follow Bruschi, Johnson, Mayo, and Hightower. He's certainly not that.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The 2009 Ravens loss was worse. That was a much better team. I suspect the problems with that unit and with this D are similar, age and speed, coupled with a lack of buy in and likely some locker room dissention. I'd be interested in knowing who this years Adalius Thomas and Shawn Springs are. To your point, heads need to roll and changes need to be made.

Who are your suspects for not buying in? I can think of one and I have no evidence to prove it. Just a hunch.

I'm not saying is isn't an issue as one of the common pitfalls of FA is sometimes the hierarchy is determined by the wage scale and not the play on the field. Additionally paying player big money fuels entitlement. Thomas was a prime example of that.

I do agree if there are players on the current roster that fall into that category they will not be here in 2022.

 

[Steve102]

Who are your suspects for not buying in? I can think of one and I have no evidence to prove it. Just a hunch.

I'm not saying is isn't an issue as one of the common pitfalls of FA is sometimes the hierarchy is determined by the wage scale and not the play on the field. Additionally paying player big money fuels entitlement. Thomas was a prime example of that.

I do agree if there are players on the current roster that fall into that category they will not be here in 2022.

I think the problem could be that the older, vet leaders know what championship level defense looks like, and know that this ain't it. If they are going thru the motions, that would permeate through the entire locker room. Looking back, Slate saying guys need to step up could be directed at anyone, but it looked an awful lot like the 2009 team that didn't give a chit and didn't want to be there.

My hunch would have been Wino, but I honestly don't think he'd carry an entire locker room. There's too many guys who were key in the second run to allow a younger guy to turn a team. But if a guy like that b!tched and the old guard leaders didn't shut it down... Who knows?

What's your hunch?

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think the problem could be that the older, vet leaders know what championship level defense looks like, and know that this ain't it. If they are going thru the motions, that would permeate through the entire locker room. Looking back, Slate saying guys need to step up could be directed at anyone, but it looked an awful lot like the 2009 team that didn't give a chit and didn't want to be there.

My hunch would have been Wino, but I honestly don't think he'd carry an entire locker room. There's too many guys who were key in the second run to allow a younger guy to turn a team. But if a guy like that b!tched and the old guard leaders didn't shut it down... Who knows?

What's your hunch?

First off, I don't think it's a locker room cancer/attitude thing.

With overall talent being the #1 problem, I think there are two secondary issues plaguing this team.

1. Confidence
2. Trust

I think Jonnu Smith falls into both categories. He has no idea what he is doing in the passing game. For instance Sat night, he broke up a pass intended for another receiver on his own team. Coaches don't trust him and he doesn't have confidence in himself nor trust himself to do the right thing.

On the flip side, I have seen more times over the past 5 weeks than in their entire careers here High, DMC, KVN and Guy over-pursuing, taking bad angles, poor gap control and arm tackling. I do think they have a lost a step but we are talking Max Kellerman here. Keep in mind as battle-tested as they are, they are still players. If players stop believing in the system or do not have coaches providing constant re-enforcement of basic fundamentals, they will slip. Alternatively, maybe they are trying too much because they don't have confidence and trust in the coaching staff? While I do think they need to upgrade the speed and talent on D, you kinda need to wonder if they've tuned BB Jr out or even worse, BB has mellowed in his old age and is not the same a-hole he was in calling players out for bad plays. I don't know.

 

[203Pat]

I know some people will say I'm being overly negative but I honestly thing this defense needs a near complete overhaul. With all things factored in (contracts, age, level of play) here is who I would keep.

Barmore: Looks like a stud already. Hopefully he builds on this season.
Guy: fading but still cheap veteran who should start transitioning into a part time role.
Wise: Mainly because it would cost more to cut him than keep him. Solid role player but I thought they overpaid him from the get go.
Judon: I don't know what happened down the stretch. An injury? Effects from Covid? No idea but hopefully he looks how he did for the first 75% of the season and not the last 25%.
Uche: On a rookie deal but we need to find out if he can play. Theoretically he looks like the type of LB we should be targeting but he either can't play or he's stuck behind our current group of dinosaur LBs.
Winovich: In a similar category to Uche but I would give him less benefit of the doubt. Honestly I think there is a chance he is cut or traded in camp but I would like to see him in a full time role and fully confirm he can't play.
Dugger: Looks like he can play and definitely stepped it up this year especially in pass coverage.
Phillips: Already re-signed but a very good versatile player.
Mills: Mainly because we need bodies at corner and we don't save much cutting him
Jonathan Jones: Provided he comes back fully healthy he is a solid veteran slot corner who we will likely need with the overhaul.

The let them walk category:

JC Jackson: I won't be mad if they re-sign him but I don't know how you can rebuild the defense and pay him $20 mill a year. I also don't know if he is a Bill type of guy with some of his comments.
Hightower: Thank you for your service. See you in a few years with your red jacket.
McCourty: Thank you for your service. See you in a few years with your red jacket.
Bentley: Good role player but unless he comes back cheap and willing to take a reserve/run stuffer role he is the type of LB we need to move away from.
Collins: Bye, again.
Hall: Another plodder LB we need to move away from

Cut category:
Godchaux: Decent rotational run stuffer but ridiculously overpaid. From what I understand we cut his cap hit in half from $10 mill to $5 mill with an out in his contract before next year.
Van Noy: Old aging and needs to stop clogging up the depth chart. Looks like we save about $5 mill to move on from him.

The who cares? Category:
Carl Davis
Jahlani Tavai
Shaun Wade
Joejuan Williams
Myles Bryant
Byron Cowart
Harvey Langi
Anfernee Jennings
Raekwon McMillian

 

[BelichickFan]

 

[Spiral]

Not sure about the comment that the 2009 Ravens game was worse. I saw several guys quit during both of these games. I don't think Hightower really wanted to play this year. He got married in the off-season, and I suspect his wife told him to get his butt off the couch and put $8M or so in the bank this year. I don't think McCourty quit, but it's hard to tell--he just doesn't make any plays and can't support CBs on deep balls to the boundary or cover tight ends in the middle of the field. You can make an argument for several of the older players, including these two, but the reality is this is a complete tear-down. Anyone on this team who won't be able to contribute in 2024 and beyond should be let go.

 

[mgteich]

OK, so you gain $10M by cutting Van Noy and Godchaux.

You now need:
at least 2 NT/DT (one to replace Godchaux and the one we needed anyway).
2-3 LB's to replace Hightower, Van Noy and Bentley.
a starting corner or two (we have Mills and Jones)
a starting free safety

The offense needs an OT or two, an OG, a RB and a WR or 2.
Free agents include Brown, Karras, White, Bolden and Myers.

Like it or not, we will need some of your don't care players to contribute.

I know some people will say I'm being overly negative but I honestly thing this defense needs a near complete overhaul. With all things factored in (contracts, age, level of play) here is who I would keep.

Barmore: Looks like a stud already. Hopefully he builds on this season.
Guy: fading but still cheap veteran who should start transitioning into a part time role.
Wise: Mainly because it would cost more to cut him than keep him. Solid role player but I thought they overpaid him from the get go.
Judon: I don't know what happened down the stretch. An injury? Effects from Covid? No idea but hopefully he looks how he did for the first 75% of the season and not the last 25%.
Uche: On a rookie deal but we need to find out if he can play. Theoretically he looks like the type of LB we should be targeting but he either can't play or he's stuck behind our current group of dinosaur LBs.
Winovich: In a similar category to Uche but I would give him less benefit of the doubt. Honestly I think there is a chance he is cut or traded in camp but I would like to see him in a full time role and fully confirm he can't play.
Dugger: Looks like he can play and definitely stepped it up this year especially in pass coverage.
Phillips: Already re-signed but a very good versatile player.
Mills: Mainly because we need bodies at corner and we don't save much cutting him
Jonathan Jones: Provided he comes back fully healthy he is a solid veteran slot corner who we will likely need with the overhaul.

The let them walk category:

JC Jackson: I won't be mad if they re-sign him but I don't know how you can rebuild the defense and pay him $20 mill a year. I also don't know if he is a Bill type of guy with some of his comments.
Hightower: Thank you for your service. See you in a few years with your red jacket.
McCourty: Thank you for your service. See you in a few years with your red jacket.
Bentley: Good role player but unless he comes back cheap and willing to take a reserve/run stuffer role he is the type of LB we need to move away from.
Collins: Bye, again.
Hall: Another plodder LB we need to move away from

Cut category:
Godchaux: Decent rotational run stuffer but ridiculously overpaid. From what I understand we cut his cap hit in half from $10 mill to $5 mill with an out in his contract before next year.
Van Noy: Old aging and needs to stop clogging up the depth chart. Looks like we save about $5 mill to move on from him.

The who cares? Category:
Carl Davis
Jahlani Tavai
Shaun Wade
Joejuan Williams
Myles Bryant
Byron Cowart
Harvey Langi
Anfernee Jennings
Raekwon McMillian

 

[zimmy]

Hightower was dreadful in the Buffalo game - whiff after whiff on tackles and slow in pursuit. In years past BB would have done a Milloy on him before the season started. Collins has done nothing since returning - a little embarrassing that BB wouldn't even put one of the young guys on the field over him. Van Noy is a semi-decent role player but not worth anywhere near his $7.5m salary next year.

We need upgrades all across the D. Sadly though it feels like we are going to see Bentley re-signed for cheap and Bentley, McMillan and McGrone as our middle linebackers next year.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

While our entire defense looked like crap, a single dominant DT has the best chance of creating a ripple effect making everyone else better.

Stopping the run, creating obvious passing downs, eating up blockers, allowing the guys we already have to get more pressure, corners don't have to cover as long.

I agree completely, but I am not sure a "single" dominant DT gets it done. I think we need two dominant DTs, or a dominant DT and a dominant DE. Either way you are completely correct that eating up blockers can have a domino effect of stopping the run, reducing the time the secondary has to cover, and letting our LBs run free (and hopefully faster ).

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Hightower was dreadful in the Buffalo game - whiff after whiff on tackles and slow in pursuit. In years past BB would have done a Milloy on him before the season started. Collins has done nothing since returning - a little embarrassing that BB wouldn't even put one of the young guys on the field over him. Van Noy is a semi-decent role player but not worth anywhere near his $7.5m salary next year.

We need upgrades all across the D. Sadly though it feels like we are going to see Bentley re-signed for cheap and Bentley, McMillan and McGrone as our middle linebackers next year.

I do not think it is sad. Bentley is a thumper and does well in running situations - not everyone can be an All Pro. McMillan, McGrone, and Perkins can add the speed we need. And if we add a couple of dominant guys on the DL (more important than LBs) we can keep our LBs running free to make the plays on the outside.

 

[Bill Lee]

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Judon was not the same player, mentally or physically, after he returned from Covid. And of course he started getting extra attention from the defenses. So he went from our best defensive player to an also-ran.

Allen when he is playing this well is very tough to contain. And the Bills literally had nobody on their injury list. We had Barmore and Dugger playing injured and Mills out.

So hard to know how much blame to apportion to each of the available personnel, the defensive scheme and the execution. With our depleted secondary we have to be able to pressure the QB consistently, and given Allen's escapability that's very hard to do.

 

[203Pat]

OK, so you gain $10M by cutting Van Noy and Godchaux.

You now need:
at least 2 NT/DT (one to replace Godchaux and the one we needed anyway).
2-3 LB's to replace Hightower, Van Noy and Bentley.
a starting corner or two (we have Mills and Jones)
a starting free safety

The offense needs an OT or two, an OG, a RB and a WR or 2.
Free agents include Brown, Karras, White, Bolden and Myers.

Like it or not, we will need some of your don't care players to contribute.

I agree that some of those guys are going to have to contribute. At this point the defense was pretty bad already with the higher paid vets so lets see some of the young guys in the linebacking core. McMillian is under contract already and there were reports he looked pretty good in his brief time in camp before the injury so maybe he is a cheap Bentley replacement. Pair him with Uche and have Judon and Winovich on the outside then draft some depth along with some cheaper free agents.

As for NT Draft a guy and kick the tires on old friend Akiem Hicks. He is aging and coming off an injury so he may be cheap enough to take a look at and work into a rotation. Maurice Hurst is another guy who has bounced around a bit and isn't a stud but for the right price could be brought in to help fill the gap as well. Fatukasi, if the Jets don't pay him, would be worth taking a look at too. He is young enough where he would be worth signing to a better than "kick the tires" deal but to be honest I don't know what type of market he will have so he may be out of our price range.

Corner is a spot I hope we use a high pick on. I am no draft expert by any means but from what I have read the depth at corner should be pretty good in this draft so maybe we get lucky. I wouldn't mind keeping Myles Bryant for a depth player but giving him extended playing time has been pretty up and down. I don't know where they see Mills next year. Maybe he slides into that McCourty role at safety and they use some tandem of him, Dugger, and Phillips in the safety spots. Regardless we are going to need some help at corner no matter what happens.

I also agree that the offense still needs a good amount of help too. I would like to see Karras back but they may make Onwenu a full time starter. I also am not sure what they do with Shaq Mason as his cap number is pretty high. Brown is another one who I would only take on a short term deal as he seems like the type to get fat and happy (literally) but who knows what his market will look like at this point in his career. I love James White but I think it may be the end of the road for him here. I would guess either him or Bolden come back but both are aging and shouldn't be viewed as the long term solution in the receiving back role. I think Meyers is a RFA but I may be wrong so hopefully he won't be too expensive for next year at least. Receiver is a spot I think we need to look at early in the draft as well. At this point there seems to be dynamic players at that position outside the first round with Metcalf, McLaurin, Deebo, and Brown all going in round 2 in recent years.

 

[203Pat]

Hightower was dreadful in the Buffalo game - whiff after whiff on tackles and slow in pursuit. In years past BB would have done a Milloy on him before the season started. Collins has done nothing since returning - a little embarrassing that BB wouldn't even put one of the young guys on the field over him. Van Noy is a semi-decent role player but not worth anywhere near his $7.5m salary next year.

We need upgrades all across the D. Sadly though it feels like we are going to see Bentley re-signed for cheap and Bentley, McMillan and McGrone as our middle linebackers next year.

 

[Pape]

wino being a healthy scratch on saturday ... any reason given? or just a general lack of confidence in his game?

 

[Biffins]

A comment from Mike Reiss that I thought was interesting:

View attachment 40010

Source:

What the hell went wrong with Winovich. He went from promising freshman season and full of confidence, to gadget player with limited snaps, to inactive on our most important game. No idea what happened here. Did he piss Belichick Jnr off or something?

 

[zimmy]

I was calling for Wino to be traded last offseason. Was clear they didn't trust him to be anything more than a sub rusher. They wouldn't start him every down on a team that was trotting John Simon, Terez Hall, Tashawn Bower etc out there. Coming off a 5 sack season you might have got a semi decent return for him. Now no one is trading anything but a conditional pick for him. And he's so cheap that you probably Bly have to keep him for depth given Hightower, Van Noy, Collins are likely off.