Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[RIpats88]

How hilarious would it be seeing Brady, Gronk and AB hoisting a Super Bowl trophy? That would be such a bad look for BB/Kraft.

I still don't think they had a choice letting brown go. He would've been suspended and no team would touch him. All he had to do was shut up.

It's just the NFL has a short memory where as long as we give them a year it's ok what horrible things players do. Unless you do drugs...then that's a big no no apparently.

 

[sb1]

Pats roster is really really bad. Worst WR room and TE room in the league. Below average D-line and linebacker groups.

That’s on GM Bill to fix. Hopefully he can.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

The great mismanagement was treating brady like a has-been when there was no guy waiting in the wings.

It's one thing to move on from Brady because you want to go with the young guy. But we traded the young guy to San Francisco. And then Bill did nothing to plan for the future.

At that point what do you have to lose signing brady to a 2 year deal? If he falls off the cliff you only are where you are without him which is 7-9

I agree 100%

 

[BTTA]

Framing this inquiry as "either/or" is an indication that the person posing the question doesn't understand how team sport works, and how dynasties are built and maintained.

Every great coach that's had a run of success, in every sport, has had great players at key positions. That's part of what defines a great coach - identifying and developing players into greatness. Any attempt to break the overall success into pieces is by nature going to be deceptive in its answer.

An artist uses a perfect shade of purple to create beauty. A naïve or petty critic attempts to shine the light on whether the blue or the red was most important.

 

[1960Pats]

How hilarious would it be seeing Brady, Gronk and AB hoisting a Super Bowl trophy? That would be such a bad look for BB/Kraft.

Speaking of Kraft, is he still alive? He was very visible during the Brady years. We haven't heard a peep from him since he planted the story about Tom leaving.

 

[203Pat]

Speaking of Kraft, is he still alive? He was very visible during the Brady years. We haven't heard a peep from him since he planted the story about Tom leaving.

I know that most of the owners didn't travel for away games but he didn't seem to talk to the media much this season either. Definitely kind of strange considering how much he talked to the media in the Brady years.

 

[1960Pats]

Framing this inquiry as "either/or" is an indication that the person posing the question doesn't understand how team sport works, and how dynasties are built and maintained.

Every great coach that's had a run of success, in every sport, has had great players at key positions. That's part of what defines a great coach - identifying and developing players into greatness. Any attempt to break the overall success into pieces is by nature going to be deceptive in its answer.

An artist uses a perfect shade of purple to create beauty. A naïve or petty critic attempts to shine the light on whether the blue or the red was most important.

Poor analogy. Bill provided the paint but Tom was creating the art. Your analogy is like having a skilled carpenter build a great deck and giving equal credit to Home Depot.

 

[1960Pats]

Once again. There are plenty of examples of inferior coaches winning but not without good/great players.

 

[1960Pats]

I know that most of the owners didn't travel for away games but he didn't seem to talk to the media much this season either. Definitely kind of strange considering how much he talked to the media in the Brady years.

I don't remember hearing him at all, but I could have missed it. I did hear a few times about his donations to social causes and acquisition of masks for the virus, but that came from the mediots.

 

[crawhammer]

Someone said somewhere Belichick could do no wrong... I've got a few examples

1991-1995: 36-44 record in Cleveland

2000/2001: 5-13 record pre-Brady

2006 WR's: Deion Branch & David Givens Out / Reche Caldwell & Doug Gabriel In... Ouch

2006 AFC CG: Special teamer Eric Alexander covering Dallas Clark who had 155 careers starts; he finished this one with his 3rd most receiving yards

2009 Week 10 vs Indy: forth-and-2... up 6 from your own 28 with 2:08 left... WTF! was he thinking?

2010 AFC Divisional: benching of Wes Welker to start game (for being mildly amusing... geez)

2015 Week 13 vs Philly: Nate Ebner Rugby-style KO... didn't work out so well, 35 points later

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/21xPJGr5emlJ8yhSkK7XzwZFwxs=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4329815/pat_trick.0.gif

2015 Week 16 vs NYJ: Deferred KO in OT... he only had the GOAT quarterback and the look on Slater's face

2015 Week 17 vs Miami: Game Plan... 23 carries for retired Steven Jackson and Brandon Bolden (basically punted the game and the 1 seed)

2017 SB 52: Malcolm Butler benching (basically punted the f'ing Super Bowl!)

2019 offseason: Let Tom Brady walk and replaced him with Cam Newton (basically punted the franchise)

 

[SVN]

Someone said somewhere Belichick could do no wrong... I've got a few examples

1991-1995: 36-44 record in Cleveland

2000/2001: 5-13 record pre-Brady

2006 WR's: Deion Branch & David Givens Out / Reche Caldwell & Doug Gabriel In... Ouch

2006 AFC CG: Special teamer Eric Alexander covering Dallas Clark who had 155 careers starts; he finished this one with his 3rd most receiving yards

2009 Week 10 vs Indy: forth-and-2... up 6 from your own 28 with 2:08 left... WTF! was he thinking?

2010 AFC Divisional: benching of Wes Welker to start game (for being mildly amusing... geez)

2015 Week 13 vs Philly: Nate Ebner Rugby-style KO... didn't work out so well, 35 points later

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/21xPJGr5emlJ8yhSkK7XzwZFwxs=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4329815/pat_trick.0.gif

2015 Week 16 vs NYJ: Deferred KO in OT... he only had the GOAT quarterback and the look on Slater's face

2015 Week 17 vs Miami: Game Plan... 23 carries for retired Steven Jackson and Brandon Bolden (basically punted the game and the 1 seed)

2017 SB 52: Malcolm Butler benching (basically punted the f'ing Super Bowl!)

2019 offseason: Let Tom Brady walk and replaced him with Cam Newton (basically punted the franchise)

Ok, lets play this . Do you think we should fire bill ? Do you have a replacement in mind ? Why don't you suggest something constructive. ?Who would you want since clearly he isnt good enough since last 25 yrs.
I am not surprised though. I expected most fans and media to turn on BB once things went south , like people were suggesting brady isnt good last yr either. This is classic boston sports fandom and media.

 

[catent]

Debates already over. Only a segment Patriots fans think otherwise.

Over in the sense that it never should've been a "debate" in the first place, because there is nothing to debate?

Yes, absolutely.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Someone said somewhere Belichick could do no wrong... I've got a few examples

1991-1995: 36-44 record in Cleveland

2000/2001: 5-13 record pre-Brady

2006 WR's: Deion Branch & David Givens Out / Reche Caldwell & Doug Gabriel In... Ouch

2006 AFC CG: Special teamer Eric Alexander covering Dallas Clark who had 155 careers starts; he finished this one with his 3rd most receiving yards

2009 Week 10 vs Indy: forth-and-2... up 6 from your own 28 with 2:08 left... WTF! was he thinking?

2010 AFC Divisional: benching of Wes Welker to start game (for being mildly amusing... geez)

2015 Week 13 vs Philly: Nate Ebner Rugby-style KO... didn't work out so well, 35 points later

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/21xPJGr5emlJ8yhSkK7XzwZFwxs=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4329815/pat_trick.0.gif

2015 Week 16 vs NYJ: Deferred KO in OT... he only had the GOAT quarterback and the look on Slater's face

2015 Week 17 vs Miami: Game Plan... 23 carries for retired Steven Jackson and Brandon Bolden (basically punted the game and the 1 seed)

2017 SB 52: Malcolm Butler benching (basically punted the f'ing Super Bowl!)

2019 offseason: Let Tom Brady walk and replaced him with Cam Newton (basically punted the franchise)

Over 20 years, any coach will make a lot of big mistakes, and sometimes there are things we aren’t privy to. But there are three that stand out to me as horrendous:

• Benching Welker in 2010.
• 2015 vs. Miami. That is actually the most angry I’ve ever been with a pro sports team I root for. He gave Denver the #1 seed, though it was virtually certain Brady or Manning would win at home, then said afterward said the seeding doesn’t really matter as long as you get a bye. Lol.
• Butler benching. Butler was active, making it all the more infuriating. I don’t claim to know the reason for benching him, but he was available the whole time.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Someone said somewhere Belichick could do no wrong... I've got a few examples

1991-1995: 36-44 record in Cleveland

2000/2001: 5-13 record pre-Brady

2006 WR's: Deion Branch & David Givens Out / Reche Caldwell & Doug Gabriel In... Ouch

2006 AFC CG: Special teamer Eric Alexander covering Dallas Clark who had 155 careers starts; he finished this one with his 3rd most receiving yards

2009 Week 10 vs Indy: forth-and-2... up 6 from your own 28 with 2:08 left... WTF! was he thinking?

2010 AFC Divisional: benching of Wes Welker to start game (for being mildly amusing... geez)

2015 Week 13 vs Philly: Nate Ebner Rugby-style KO... didn't work out so well, 35 points later

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/21xPJGr5emlJ8yhSkK7XzwZFwxs=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4329815/pat_trick.0.gif

2015 Week 16 vs NYJ: Deferred KO in OT... he only had the GOAT quarterback and the look on Slater's face

2015 Week 17 vs Miami: Game Plan... 23 carries for retired Steven Jackson and Brandon Bolden (basically punted the game and the 1 seed)

2017 SB 52: Malcolm Butler benching (basically punted the f'ing Super Bowl!)

2019 offseason: Let Tom Brady walk and replaced him with Cam Newton (basically punted the franchise)

All these examples are from Billy's Blunders Greatest Hits Collection and more hits are on the way including his latest obsession with DB's over obvious talented skill players.

2005 is when it all started with letting Ty Law and McGinest walk and replacing them with Duane Starks (who was awful with Arizona) for a 3rd round pick and Monty Biesel (most famous for getting trucked by an obese QB). And this was after Bruschi had suffered a stroke.

2006 when he sent his rookie WR struggling with a hammy all year (who he traded up for in the 2nd round) out to defend a kickoff in the AFCCG. He tore his ACL and was the downfall of his career. But the lack of depth at LB (Alexander getting beat by every TE on their roster) is what caused that loss and that's all on BB.

2007 Super Bowl not challenging the Pierre Woods clear fumble recovery before Bradshaw wrestled it away in the pile.

 

[sb1]

All these examples are from Billy's Blunders Greatest Hits Collection and more hits are on the way including his latest obsession with DB's over obvious talented skill players.

2005 is when it all started with letting Ty Law and McGinest walk and replacing them with Duane Starks (who was awful with Arizona) for a 3rd round pick and Monty Biesel. And this was after Bruschi had suffered a stroke.

2006 when he sent his rookie WR struggling with a hammy all year (who he traded up for in the 2nd round) out to defend a kickoff in the AFCCG. He tore his ACL and was the downfall of his career. But the lack of depth at LB (Alexander) is what caused that loss and that's all on BB.

2007 Super Bowl not challenging the Pierre Woods clear fumble recovery before Bradshaw wrestled it away in the pile.

Every coach makes mistakes, even the best of them. But they all don’t matter in the long run.

Except for one - Spygate. That was Bill’s biggest blunder by a mile. That put this organization and us fans through a lot of hell. And the organization is still paying for that one almost a decade and a half later. That won’t be forgotten.

Fireable if it was a lesser coach.

 

[sb1]

Over 20 years, any coach will make a lot of big mistakes, and sometimes there are things we aren’t privy to. But there are three that stand out to me as horrendous:

• Benching Welker in 2010.
• 2015 vs. Miami. That is actually the most angry I’ve ever been with a pro sports team I root for. He gave Denver the #1 seed, though it was virtually certain Brady or Manning would win at home, then said afterward said the seeding doesn’t really matter as long as you get a bye. Lol.
• Butler benching. Butler was active, making it all the more infuriating. I don’t claim to know the reason for benching him, but he was available the whole time.

I remember a lot of us were worried about facing the Steelers at home instead of the Broncos on the road. lol

 

[TheRainMaker]

Every coach makes mistakes, even the best of them.

Except for one - Spygate. That was Bill’s biggest blunder by a mile. The rest of them aren’t close in magnitude to that one.

Fireable if it was a lesser coach.

I agree about SpyGate. But you could also argue it started their "FU Tour". However, Bruschi and Harrison admitted that pressure going undefeated was too much and the entire team played "not to lose" in the Super Bowl.

But my beef is that there was a lot of Championships left on the table. The Pats still had a clear advantage over the AFC for many years even though Bill had his blunders, but it somehow came back to bite them. They've lost to many inferior teams. During that 10 year gap, they were starting to look like the 90's Atlanta Braves.

Also add for 2007 Super Bowl not attempting a field goal in a damn dome but chucking it deep on 4th down instead.

 

[sb1]

I agree about SpyGate. But you could also argue it started their "FU Tour". However, Bruschi and Harrison admitted that pressure going undefeated was too much and the entire team played "not to lose" in the Super Bowl.

But my beef is that there was a lot of Championships left on the table. The Pats still had a clear advantage over the AFC for many years even though Bill had his blunders, but it somehow came back to bite them. During that 10 year gap, they were starting to look like the 90's Atlanta Braves.

If Bill had stuck to his job description as coach and kept to the rulebook instead of deliberately cheating and thinking he can get away with it by playing lawyer with the wording of the rules and the memo (as he admitted doing) that team could have steamrolled through the league anyway and maybe gone undefeated regardless. They were stacked from top to bottom and the best team this league has ever seen even with the loss in the end. It was just so unnecessary and idiotic.

The only FU was done to Bill and the Pats and us fans by being mocked and labelled as cheaters and having a first rounder stolen by a league of Jets lovers who were bitter enough about Bill leaving them at the altar and were looking for revenge, and putting us on the radar to have another one stolen by a farce about deflated footballs because the first one I guess wasn’t severe enough, and then put us on the radar again to have a third rounder stolen this year in a season where we need all the high draft picks we can get. Imagine what we could have done with those picks.

Thank Bill for all the seething hate this team gets from other fans and media. Some is jealousy but I suspect it’s mostly being labelled as cheaters and it all started with that. That’s something I’ll never forget. Credit to Kraft for not firing him. I might not have made that same decision if that was me.

 

[sb1]

Also add for 2007 Super Bowl not attempting a field goal in a damn dome but chucking it deep on 4th down instead.

Yup. Pats lost by 3 too because Bill passed up a 49 yard field goal. It’s not like it was 59. I mean... you really don’t trust your kicker to hit one from 49? I’m sure he wasn’t hurt. Why is he active then? And it wasn’t like 4th and 3, it was 4th and THIRTEEN. Crazy.

Deadspin | Analyzing Belichick's Insane Decision Not To Kick

Deadspin | Analyzing Belichick's Insane Decision Not To Kick

deadspin.com

I will defend Bill’s coaching in a debate but I definitely don’t think he’s perfect. Far from it.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Speaking of Kraft, is he still alive? He was very visible during the Brady years. We haven't heard a peep from him since he planted the story about Tom leaving.

He only likes to be in stories with happy endings.