Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[XLIX]

Baltimore in 2000, Philly, and Denver in 2015 were outliers (2000 Ravens and 2015 Broncos had historically good defenses). Nick Foles could have been a franchise QB had he stayed in Philly and worked under Frank Reich. Flacco was the long-term starter in Baltimore, so he was a franchise QB I would argue.

If you are reduced to arguing that Flacco is a franchise quarterback, well.... let's just say that doesn't bode well for your thesis.

 

[XLIX]

teams may sneak in a sb championship from time to time but more often than not, a franchise qb is needed and definitely needed for long term success.

The thing is, it is the Patriots themselves who have won so many Super Bowls that they skew the results. The Patriots have won 6 Super Bowls so you can point to anything NE has done and call that an important ingredient to winning Super Bowls.

If we look at the history before NE's domination, we see countless examples of teams winning Super Bowls without franchise QB's. Chicago (20), NYG (21), Wash (22), NYG (25), Wash (26), Baltimore (35), Tampa Bay (37), Baltimore (47), Denver (50), Philly (52). That's 10 out of the past 35, so it is clearly something which can and does happen.

 

[amfootball]

I do think Tom has lost "something". Quick twitch muscle responnse, mental acuity, etc. Christ hes 43 years old. We've all lost something at that age.

It's obvious whatever he has lost physically the talent he has at his disposal has compensated for it.

For sure. He has had some decline. I just didn't expect him to look this good in the pocket and with his throws. The talent around does help though too. LOL

 

[SHOWTIME15]

The thing is, it is the Patriots themselves who have won so many Super Bowls that they skew the results. The Patriots have won 6 Super Bowls so you can point to anything NE has done and call that an important ingredient to winning Super Bowls.

If we look at the history before NE's domination, we see countless examples of teams winning Super Bowls without franchise QB's. Chicago (20), NYG (21), Wash (22), NYG (25), Wash (26), Baltimore (35), Tampa Bay (37), Baltimore (47), Denver (50), Philly (52). That's 10 out of the past 35, so it is clearly something which can and does happen.

Those teams that you cited almost all had historically good defenses with the exception of maybe those two Washington teams, Baltimore in SB 37, and Philly. BTW, Phill Simms was absolutely a franchise quarterback. He was the long-term starter in NY for over a decade.
So technically you are right, you don't need a franchise QB to win a SB but the vast majority of teams that have pulled off a title run in the past 30 years without one have had exceptional defenses. BTW, Brady was not viewed as a franchise QB in SB 36 - if you are going to say Peyton wasn't in SB 50 then Brady wasn't either in his first SB.

 

[RobertWeathers]

For sure. He has had some decline. I just didn't expect him to look this good in the pocket and with his throws. The talent around does help though too. LOL

It is an irrefutable fact for a QB to put up sick stats he needs talent to throw to and good playcalling.

I'm brutal on Ariens but I do think he knows how to call an offensive game and get the most out of QBs.

 

[RobertWeathers]

This was correct years ago. I'm not a fan of the copout 50 50 answer as it isn't backed up IMO.

Belichick's record with Brady: 219-64 (.779)
Mike McCarthy's record with Rodgers: 98-55-1 (.637)
Matt Lafleur's record with Rodgers: 25-7 (.781)
Bill Cowher's record with Roethlisberger: 29-11 (.725)
Mike Tomlin's record with Roethlisberger: 126-65-1 (.660)
Sean Payton's record with Brees: 133-77 (.633)
Tony Dungy's record with Manning: 85-27 (.758)
Jim Caldwell's record with Manning: 24-8 (.750)
John Fox's record with Manning: 38-10 (.791)
Gary Kubiak's record with Manning: 12-4 (.750)

HOF QBs keep coaches employed a long time & rack up impressive win %. Saying the QB is more important shouldn't be controversial.

At face value you are correct. Players win games.

Issue here is we are talking about a man who has been solely responsible for A) building the roster and B) coaching the team better and longer than any coach/GM in league history.

If we want to say Tom won the games and the Super Bowls and BB drafted and developed Tom, built the roster and came up with the game plans which put Tom in a position to win those games that would also be an accurate statement.

 

[amfootball]

It is an irrefutable fact for a QB to put up sick stats he needs talent to throw to and good playcalling.

I'm brutal on Ariens but I do think he knows how to call an offensive game and get the most out of QBs.

It just makes last year all that much more painful. Had we had more talent we could still be competing with the GOAT for SBs.

I think Arians is a bit of a clown. He is not good at calling plays/plans for his talent. The amount of YAC this team could have would be enormous if he would stop doing so many vertical routes and do more crossers and slants and screens. Thankfully it seems as though Brady is starting to change him into more of the high percentage plays that actually take advantage of the complete skillset of the players and expose the holes in a defense to make them defend the whole field.

 

[RobertWeathers]

It just makes last year all that much more painful. Had we had more talent we could still be competing with the GOAT for SBs.

I think Arians is a bit of a clown. He is not good at calling plays/plans for his talent. The amount of YAC this team could have would be enormous if he would stop doing so many vertical routes and do more crossers and slants and screens. Thankfully it seems as though Brady is starting to change him into more of the high percentage plays that actually take advantage of the complete skillset of the players and expose the holes in a defense to make them defend the whole field.

Agree.

A few weeks ago I do think Tom and Ariens had an airing of family grievances and got a little more aligned.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

or how about his annual 2 interceptions in the super bowl?

Games: 9
Interceptions: 6

Games with multiple interceptions: 1 (Win versus Seattle)

 

[XLIX]

Those teams that you cited almost all had historically good defenses with the exception of maybe those two Washington teams,

Ohhhhh.... so you’re saying it’s possible to win Super Bowls without franchise quarterbacks.

Which is totally the point I was making.

Baltimore in SB 37, and Philly. BTW, Phill Simms was absolutely a franchise quarterback. He was the long-term starter in NY for over a decade.

You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts.

Phil Simms was not the regular, full time starter for NY. He was benched for Scott Brunner, and only reclaimed his position after injuries.

So technically you are right, you don't need a franchise QB to win a SB but the vast majority of teams that have pulled off a title run in the past 30 years without one have had exceptional defenses.

Well no ****.... I mean yeah, if the offense is mediocre than you need a good defense. But I’m glad you’ve come around to the realization that teams can and do win without franchise QB’s. Took you a while to see the light but we got you there..!!

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Games: 9
Interceptions: 6

Games with multiple interceptions: 1 (Win versus Seattle)

I corrected myself in another post, but in 2/3 of his super bowls he threw at least 1 pick. Plus the strip sacks in SB 42 and 52 along with the intentional grounding in the end zone in SB 46. The great things he has done in the SBs far outweighs his mistakes, but the point remains, he does make mistakes in big games. And Belichick has made big mistakes in big games too. It's not all on the coach, however, which is what the Bradyites what us to believe.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Ohhhhh.... so you’re saying it’s possible to win Super Bowls without franchise quarterbacks.

Which is totally the point I was making.

You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts.

Phil Simms was not the regular, full time starter for NY. He was benched for Scott Brunner, and only reclaimed his position after injuries.

Well no ****.... I mean yeah, if the offense is mediocre than you need a good defense. But I’m glad you’ve come around to the realization that teams can and do win without franchise QB’s. Took you a while to see the light but we got you there..!!

Simms was the starter in 1984-1990, so yeah he was a franchise QB.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I corrected myself in another post, but in 2/3 of his super bowls he threw at least 1 pick. Plus the strip sacks in SB 42 and 52 along with the intentional grounding in the end zone in SB 46. The great things he has done in the SBs far outweighs his mistakes, but the point remains, he does make mistakes in big games. And Belichick has made big mistakes in big games too. It's not all on the coach, however, which is what the Bradyites what us to believe.

Brady’s Career

Regular Season interception rate - 1.8%
Super Bowl interception rate - 1.5%

In nine games, 392 snaps, he cost the team a safety with an intentional grounding one time and got strip sacked during a crucial drive one time...though he led the team to a game winning drive or would be game winning drive (to take the lead in the 4th quarter of a SB) against the Rams, Panthers, Giants, Seahawks, Falcons, Eagles, and Rams again. His “blunders” in the clutch are microscopic in light of how most QBs would fare over a large sample size against high level defenses.

SB46 was his worst game, though he still played well enough to win despite having the ball for 22 minutes (idiotic gameplan) and Gronk’s injury. Everyone, including Brady, choked that one away.

 

[XLIX]

Simms was the starter in 1984-1990, so yeah he was a franchise QB.

First you said "He was the long-term starter in NY for over a decade." I had to school you on how that just wasn't right. Now you're saying '84 to '90 makes someone a franchise QB.

So in order to support your argument, you have advocated for Joe Flacco being a franchise QB and now Phil Simms. Yeah, that really only shows how weak your thesis really is.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

First you said "He was the long-term starter in NY for over a decade." I had to school you on how that just wasn't right. Now you're saying '84 to '90 makes someone a franchise QB.

So in order to support your argument, you have advocated for Joe Flacco being a franchise QB and now Phil Simms. Yeah, that really only shows how weak your thesis really is.

You're arguing over semantics, which is not useful to this discussion at all. I view someone who is the quarterback for 6 years as a long term QB. It's very rare to have QBs play for 10-15 years and those are the ones who are not just franchise QBs but are the elite ones.

 

[sb1]

Games: 9
Interceptions: 6

Games with multiple interceptions: 1 (Win versus Seattle)

And the 1 game was against a team and a secondary that shut down a record setting offense the year before.

 

[sb1]

I corrected myself in another post, but in 2/3 of his super bowls he threw at least 1 pick. Plus the strip sacks in SB 42 and 52 along with the intentional grounding in the end zone in SB 46. The great things he has done in the SBs far outweighs his mistakes, but the point remains, he does make mistakes in big games. And Belichick has made big mistakes in big games too. It's not all on the coach, however, which is what the Bradyites what us to believe.

I noticed you made a distinction here - maybe it wasn’t intentional.

It’s accurate to say Brady has made mistakes in big games, like how you worded it for Belichick.

That’s a little different IMO than saying “he does make mistakes in big games” like it’s a regular habit or a tendency. Not sure I agree with that.

 

[XLIX]

You're arguing over semantics, which is not useful to this discussion at all. I view someone who is the quarterback for 6 years as a long term QB. It's very rare to have QBs play for 10-15 years and those are the ones who are not just franchise QBs but are the elite ones.

Well you know what? When someone makes the statement "it takes a franchise QB for a team to be successful" then sorry not sorry, but the definition of the term "franchise QB" becomes pretty darn important.

I look at the past 35 years of Super Bowls and see 10 which were won by teams who didn't have a franchise QB. But, in order to defend your own statement, you retort with the opinion that the likes of Phil Simms and Joe Flacco were "franchise QBs" - a position which I find highly dubious at best.

Regardless, let us accept your statement that "it takes a franchise QB for a team to be successful." I will concede the truth of that statement. Of course, now that we have accepted the truth of your statement, it raises the natural response thusly: If you are a team that has a franchise QB, maybe you should NOT kick him out the door when you have no other options available.

 

[Gumby]

FYI: for most people- Franchise and “starter” are NOT synonymous when talking QBs.

you two should align your terms before arguing.
To me franchise; means he is the face of the franchise and most important player and likely you would be willing to give up 1/3 to half a draft class to keep him.

Simms played on a team w LT. Nuff said.
6 year starter. Not a franchise qb. Replaceable, good:above avg but replace able.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Regardless, let us accept your statement that "it takes a franchise QB for a team to be successful." I will concede the truth of that statement. Of course, now that we have accepted the truth of your statement, it raises the natural response thusly: If you are a team that has a franchise QB, maybe you should NOT kick him out the door when you have no other options available.

Point taken, but I don't know if Brady would BE or even play like a franchise QB in New England with the lack of weapons he would have. And Brady would certainly not be a long term starter here. He is playing like a franchise QB in Tampa, but they have the talent that allows him to play like a top 10 QB.