Bills @ Pats all-22 rewatch thread

[luuked]

What I am suggesting is that in CERTAIN situations you run in Williams to cover a particular TE man to man. Doesn't take any "experience" to do that.

The experience comes in when the opponents start to get tricky with how the TE lines up or sendd him on crossers through traffic. I think you are underplaying it a bit here.

 

[venecol]

Here's another view of the 4th and 1. It seems that Harry had an opening if he cuts behind Sanu instead of keep going east-west. The guy at the end (across Watson) got caught leaning the wrong way providing the opening.

 

[TomPatriot]

A couple of thoughts here in response to your comments.

1. IIRC he runs a 4.5 forty and has shown he can cover big WR's well. He did it ALL preseason and sometimes against other team's starters. Really fast WR's who get past his jam can get behind him, but because of his length he's a tough guy to throw over. You need the perfect pass. These were my observations from what I've seen.

The only reason he isn't playing is that the Pats have 4 CB's (Gilmore, JMac, Jackson, and Jones) ahead of him who are more experienced playing together and are doing fine jobs themselves.

2. I'm not proposing a position change at all, OR that he simply replace Chung as the starter. What I am suggesting is that in CERTAIN situations you run in Williams to cover a particular TE man to man. Doesn't take any "experience" to do that.

He ran about a 4.55 at his Pro Day, which is ok, but 4.64 at the Combine, which is a tad slow.

I can see where he’d be tough on Kelce on, say, 2nd or 3rd and long because of his height. He should be fast enough to stay with him. Interesting idea. Maybe we’ll see it.

 

[patfanken]

The experience comes in when the opponents start to get tricky with how the TE lines up or sendd him on crossers through traffic. I think you are underplaying it a bit here.

Perhaps, but I'd only use him on man concepts, and from day one, players in man concepts are taught to be aware of traffic (picks and rubs) in their techniques. Its not like he's not been doing this all year, but all the years he was in college as well.

BTW- in a somewhat unrelated matter. Have you ever wondered why NFL teams don't utilize "switch" concepts against rubs and picks more often. When was the last time you saw 2 DB's "switch" responsibilities to defend a pick play? I can't remember the last time I saw it. NBA players switch all the time, and while sometimes you MIGHT wind up in a mismatch, its a lot better than leaving the receiver wide open. Just a thought

 

[patfanken]

He ran about a 4.55 at his Pro Day, which is ok, but 4.64 at the Combine, which is a tad slow.

I can see where he’d be tough on Kelce on, say, 2nd or 3rd and long because of his height. He should be fast enough to stay with him. Interesting idea. Maybe we’ll see it.

Better on Kelce than Hill or Hardman

 

[Ring 6]

Perhaps, but I'd only use him on man concepts, and from day one, players in man concepts are taught to be aware of traffic (picks and rubs) in their techniques. Its not like he's not been doing this all year, but all the years he was in college as well.

BTW- in a somewhat unrelated matter. Have you ever wondered why NFL teams don't utilize "switch" concepts against rubs and picks more often. When was the last time you saw 2 DB's "switch" responsibilities to defend a pick play? I can't remember the last time I saw it. NBA players switch all the time, and while sometimes you MIGHT wind up in a mismatch, its a lot better than leaving the receiver wide open. Just a thought

Sometimes they switch without switching. Like in the bunch where one way to play it is they take whoever comes their way.

 

[patfanken]

Sometimes they switch without switching. Like in the bunch where one way to play it is they take whoever comes their way.

I get that with bunch formations, but I'm thinking a bit further into a route. Disclaimer: I have to admit that never in my 2 decades of coaching did I ever teach or even think about switching during a passing play.

 

[TomPatriot]

Have you ever wondered why NFL teams don't utilize "switch" concepts against rubs and picks more often. When was the last time you saw 2 DB's "switch" responsibilities to defend a pick play? I can't remember the last time I saw it. NBA players switch all the time, and while sometimes you MIGHT wind up in a mismatch, its a lot better than leaving the receiver wide open. Just a thought

I suspect that’s because if you’re watching for a switch it’s tougher for the DB to read the route and to keep his eyes on the receiver’s hips.

 

[luuked]

Perhaps, but I'd only use him on man concepts, and from day one, players in man concepts are taught to be aware of traffic (picks and rubs) in their techniques. Its not like he's not been doing this all year, but all the years he was in college as well.

I honestly think you are underestimating a lot of it.

Just check out how much JC Jackson was struggling against Beasley when he had to play inside after JMac reinjured his groin. Cole put a clown hat on him more often than not.

And he has much, much more experience than Joejuan.

I hope you are right and he can handle it because to me covering bigger receiver and TEs is why he was taken but I can see why the team is taking it slower with him.

 

[luuked]

I suspect that’s because if you’re watching for a switch it’s tougher for the DB to read the route and to keep his eyes on the receiver’s hips.

Also in case of picks you usually have receivers running pretty fast in opposite directions. Switching off might avoid the pick but result in wide open receivers anyway.

 

[TomPatriot]

Also in case of picks you usually have receivers running pretty fast in opposite directions. Switching off might avoid the pick but result in wide open receivers anyway.

idk. If I switch I’m pretty much already where the receiver is going and I’m not the one being picked. I just think you have less time to pick up the receiver and the route.

 

[luuked]

idk. If I switch I’m pretty much already where the receiver is going and I’m not the one being picked. I just think you have less time to pick up the receiver and the route.

I get what you are saying but fighting momentum can be a *****.

 

[PP2]

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

He ran about a 4.55 at his Pro Day, which is ok, but 4.64 at the Combine, which is a tad slow.

I can see where he’d be tough on Kelce on, say, 2nd or 3rd and long because of his height. He should be fast enough to stay with him. Interesting idea. Maybe we’ll see it.

Don't forget Obi is stashed on the practice squad. Originally a 2nd round pick, 6'4", 225 lbs, 4.4 sec 40. I assume BB wants to replace Chung and have a 2 headed option for TEs. Chung must be winding down.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Also in case of picks you usually have receivers running pretty fast in opposite directions. Switching off might avoid the pick but result in wide open receivers anyway.

Are you talking about banjo coverage? Many teams use it against pick plays or bunch formation, the Patriots included. Usually, corners will maintain inside or outside leverage, and simply pick up the player who goes into their area; it's man coverage but has some zone principles.

 

[luuked]

Are you talking about banjo coverage? Many teams use it against pick plays or bunch formation, the Patriots included. Usually, corners will maintain inside or outside leverage, and simply pick up the player who goes into their area; it's man coverage but has some zone principles.

Once we get into mixed concepts it is a different ball game anyway. I was actually toying with the idea to respond to Ken's idea with talking about zone but then decided to just point out the obvious issue when its purely man.

I have seen the good old "banjo" arm gestures a lot in recent games.

 

[ALP]

Are you talking about banjo coverage? Many teams use it against pick plays or bunch formation, the Patriots included. Usually, corners will maintain inside or outside leverage, and simply pick up the player who goes into their area; it's man coverage but has some zone principles.

that works too, but do teams switch DBs when its just all man?

I think in football it might have to do with momentum, where if the WR has a head of speed its tough for a DB to stop following his original WR, switch direction and pivot and speed up to follow the other WR

on a court there is less space and everyone is starting from almost a complete stop so those are the differences i see

 

[Patsgofor4]

I don't think they're going to suddenly throw him out there in the playoffs, but hopefully he grows into that role in the years to come.

Last week was a playoff atmosphere and he seemed to handle the pressure well. I fear that Kelce will eat Chung alive this year. Chung’s injuries have clearly taken their toll on his body. JC did a pretty good job in the AFC champship game vs. Kelce but Williams has 3 inches and 10-15 pounds on Jackson, which could make a big difference.

IMO, it’s exactly the type of move that BB would make in the playoffs, to give the Chiefs something that they haven’t seen before. On the other hand, if they want to test out Joejuan in that role, this weekend would seemingly be a good opportunity with Gesicki, who is Kelce-ish and plays in a TE friendly offense.

 

[Patsgofor4]

Here's another view of the 4th and 1. It seems that Harry had an opening if he cuts behind Sanu instead of keep going east-west. The guy at the end (across Watson) got caught leaning the wrong way providing the opening.

View attachment 25636

That’s easy to say on a still shot but Johnson was in a backfield almost immediately and he may have made the play anyway. Given the direction that Harry ran to start the play, I suspect that the play was intended to go wide, with Sanu blocking to the inside. We can’t complain when Harry runs the wrong route and then also complain when he doesn’t stick to the intent of the play. He is 6’2”, 225 lbs, not Barry Sanders. That’s a tough improvisation and change of direction for a guy his size, given how quickly Johnson was on top of him.

 

[luuked]

That’s easy to say on a still shot but Johnson was in a backfield almost immediately and he may have made the play anyway. Given the direction that Harry ran to start the play, I suspect that the play was intended to go wide, with Sanu blocking to the inside. We can’t complain when Harry runs the wrong route and then also complain when he doesn’t stick to the intent of the play. He is 6’2”, 225 lbs, not Barry Sanders. That’s a tough improvisation and change of direction for a guy his size, given how quickly Johnson was on top of him.

The main thing I'd put on Harry is that he gave away the motion about 2 seconds before the snap but really I am not sure it really had any effect when you watch the replay a few times.

Sanu seemed to not be on the same page in terms of blocking assignment and that is totally on him. There is no sugarcoating here. It didn't look as much a missed block but actually like he completely avoided it.

It would have been a hell of a play for Harry to get out of this.