Cowboys @ Pats all-22 rewatch thread

[patfanken]

1st rep is exactly why you got Wynn & what he brings to the team. Quick out of his stance, beats Quinn off the ball & to his set. Quick strikes inside & to Quinns hands. Control your man's hands & it's over. No one ever left their hands behind, kills the rush. Look at the feet firing. Ass always pointed at Brady. Great rep.

Skip rep

Cowboys run a stunt. Edge wants to occupy while DT comes off his block. Defender tried to use a club/rip (that uppercut motion you see a finisher) Wynn strikes first, guides him right into Thuney before picking up the DT coming up the arc.

Next rep. He's just trying to guide his man up the loop & never gets enough of him. Quinn goes stab w his inside, tries to control/knock down w his outside hand before using a rip to get free. Recognizes he's too far upfield to get to 12 so explodes back inside. Again a lil quicker, more physical w his hands but active hands works both ways as we see. No harm no foul.


Let's his beat himself up field.

Last rush he stays patient. Shows good recognition/awareness & handles power. Drop his anchor a few times. Good rep.

His foot quickness MORE than makes up for any lack of bulk and arm length. My only fear was seeing him over powered by bull rushes, but like the guy said who did his draft profile, he drops his butt and anchors and the rusher just gets stopped.

I was excited when the drafted him, I was excited when I saw him in the preseason. NOTHING this kid does when he gets on the field makes you think he wasn't worth a first round pick. This kid is good now and will likely get much better as the season goes on.

 

[Vindicate]

Pass pro.


Btw that's my old man pup you hear in the background. Chewing, walking around waiting for me to go to bed. Still going strong at almost 19. Poor bugger can't see, hear, some arthritis & other stuff. Still does his thing though

Shot in the dark here, but I'm basing this off your Twitter handle - do you like rap?


Either way you have a dope handle lmao.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

His foot quickness MORE than makes up for any lack of bulk and arm length. My only fear was seeing him over powered by bull rushes, but like the guy said who did his draft profile, he drops his butt and anchors and the rusher just gets stopped.

I was excited when the drafted him, I was excited when I saw him in the preseason. NOTHING this kid does when he gets on the field makes you think he wasn't worth a first round pick. This kid is good now and will likely get much better as the season goes on.

You gotta spend more time in the draft forum. We highlighted that all last year .
I love him though. Top 5-8 overall player I graded that year. He's not Q Nelson but not that far behind.
Someone who excels everywhere. Smart, + technique, does the little things right. Again I thought the first & last play highlighted the awareness, attention to detail & someone that will go that extra mile to make it happen.

Would love to see him & Thuney on that left side for a while.

 

[PP2]

Aha. Down count doesn’t reset in mid-play. Only after the play. So if Pats recover, establish possession and then fumble it back to Dallas it’s still fourth down, unless the ball has advanced past the line to gain, right?

That's the rule as I understand it, but I am no expert. I think the overriding factor here is that you have four attempts to get a first down, so it doesn't matter where the ball is fumbled or if you re-gained possession; the ball still has to be on or beyond the down marker after the fourth attempt for the Cowboys to retain possession.

This would be the same outcome if the QB had received the snap, fumbled the ball (i.e., drops it), then it is touched by a defensive player, but then an OL man dives on it to secure possession.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

That's the rule as I understand it, but I am no expert. I think the overriding factor here is that you have four attempts to get a first down, so it doesn't matter where the ball is fumbled or if you re-gained possession; the ball still has to be on or beyond the down marker after the fourth attempt for the Cowboys to retain possession.

This would be the same outcome if the QB had received the snap, fumbled the ball (i.e., drops it), then it is touched by a defensive player, but then an OL man dives on it to secure possession.

I don’t know if that’s right, @PP2 ...thanks for your input though. It might be right. But to your QB example, you missed a change of actual possession, since just touching the ball doesn’t constitute that.

It would be more like this: At the 50 yard line, it’s 3rd and 10 and Brady receives snap and gets stripped of the ball by Von Miller. Chris Harris picks up the fumble and takes off towards the end zone; however, after about 15 yards he fumbles the ball. Julian Edelman then dives on the ball, which is now at the Patriots 30-yard line. Is it 4th and 30 at the Patriots 30, or is it 1st and 10 at the Patriots 30? I believe the rule states that once possession has changed (Harris gaining possession), the downs reset and it’s 1st and 10.

(An example of this: Troy Brown’s famous fumble forcing play on Marlon McCree after an INT in the AFCDG in 2006-07. That was an interception rather than a fumble, but I think it’s the same concept and it’s now first and 10 for New England.)

With the blocked punt it would be counterintuitive if Jones had established and then lost possession merely in the act of trying to pick up a fumbled ball, but by the actual rulebook, doesn’t his gaining possession reset the downs?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I wasn't worried because I never thought JJ established possession before the ball reentered the scrum. Whoever recovered the ball was still going over to the Pats.

Any thoughts on the actual rules here PFK? Lot of people wondering if theoretically Jones did establish possession, lost it, recovered by DAL, is it DAL 1st and 10?

 

[PP2]

I don’t know if that’s right, @PP2 ...thanks for your input though. It might be right. But to your QB example, you missed a change of actual possession, since just touching the ball doesn’t constitute that.

It would be more like this: At the 50 yard line, it’s 3rd and 10 and Brady receives snap and gets stripped of the ball by Von Miller. Chris Harris picks up the fumble and takes off towards the end zone; however, after about 15 yards he fumbles the ball. Julian Edelman then dives on the ball, which is now at the Patriots 30-yard line. Is it 4th and 30 at the Patriots 30, or is it 1st and 10 at the Patriots 30? I believe the rule states that once possession has changed (Harris gaining possession), the downs reset and it’s 1st and 10.

(An example of this: Troy Brown’s famous fumble forcing play on Marlon McCree after an INT in the AFCDG in 2006-07. That was an interception rather than a fumble, but I think it’s the same concept and it’s now first and 10 for New England.)

With the blocked punt it would be counterintuitive if Jones had established and then lost possession merely in the act of trying to pick up a fumbled ball, but by the actual rulebook, doesn’t his gaining possession reset the downs?

The difference here is that we're talking about a 4th down, not a 3rd.

I believe that the rule that a team is only allocated four tries to get past the down marker, supersedes any fumble rules, including whoever ends up with the ball once it is fumbled.

So if it was recovered short of the down marker, the Patriots get the ball, regardless of who ended up with the fumble.

But if it was somehow fumbled beyond the down marker, and the Cowboys recovered, it would be theirs to keep, because they achieved the goal of advancing the ball past the down marker in four attempts.

 

[patfanken]

Any thoughts on the actual rules here PFK? Lot of people wondering if theoretically Jones did establish possession, lost it, recovered by DAL, is it DAL 1st and 10?

Yes

 

[primetime]

You gotta spend more time in the draft forum. We highlighted that all last year .
I love him though. Top 5-8 overall player I graded that year. He's not Q Nelson but not that far behind.
Someone who excels everywhere. Smart, + technique, does the little things right. Again I thought the first & last play highlighted the awareness, attention to detail & someone that will go that extra mile to make it happen.

Would love to see him & Thuney on that left side for a while.

I thought he was the best player in the draft. Better than Nelson and plays tackle (even though there was an insistence he couldn't). I went bonkers when they drafted Wynn.

Still feel that way. Hope his injury woes are behind him.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I thought he was the best player in the draft. Better than Nelson and plays tackle (even though there was an insistence he couldn't). I went bonkers when they drafted Wynn.

Still feel that way. Hope his injury woes are behind him.

Same, I was so pumped. Very rarely your fav team drafts a guy you think that highly of.
Ended up Nelson 9.47, Chubb 9.38, R Smith 9.28, J Alexander 9.23, T Edmunds 9.20, Darnold 9.20, Wynn 9.19, Jackson 9.17 for me.

Haven't changed at all in terms of my enthusiasm, looks like a home run pick if he stays healthy.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

I don’t know if that’s right, @PP2 ...thanks for your input though. It might be right. But to your QB example, you missed a change of actual possession, since just touching the ball doesn’t constitute that.

It would be more like this: At the 50 yard line, it’s 3rd and 10 and Brady receives snap and gets stripped of the ball by Von Miller. Chris Harris picks up the fumble and takes off towards the end zone; however, after about 15 yards he fumbles the ball. Julian Edelman then dives on the ball, which is now at the Patriots 30-yard line. Is it 4th and 30 at the Patriots 30, or is it 1st and 10 at the Patriots 30? I believe the rule states that once possession has changed (Harris gaining possession), the downs reset and it’s 1st and 10.

(An example of this: Troy Brown’s famous fumble forcing play on Marlon McCree after an INT in the AFCDG in 2006-07. That was an interception rather than a fumble, but I think it’s the same concept and it’s now first and 10 for New England.)

With the blocked punt it would be counterintuitive if Jones had established and then lost possession merely in the act of trying to pick up a fumbled ball, but by the actual rulebook, doesn’t his gaining possession reset the downs?

This is correct. The rules on possession go back to rugby and supercede any consideration of downs and the line to gain. If Jones clearly had possession and wasn't giving himself up on the play and then fumbled, with Dallas recovering, it would be Dallas's ball 1st and 10 from whatever spot they recovered the ball. The downs reset based on possession, and that has primacy over the possession resetting based on downs.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

Can anyone explain to me what BB has done to make the most out of our bottom shelf TE situation? If there was any game to see them get involved in passing, you'd figure it'd be this one given the depleted WR corps. But alas, they were still minimal it seemed.

Feel free to be detailed, but if there is terminology, I'd love a breakdown - I don't even know what a "wham" block is. But I do love learning!

Coming-in I thought that because Dallas has a speedy group of LBs who match up well in the passing game, the TEs and also RBs might not see a lot of action in the passing game, but obviously things can change as the game develops. Did anyone look to see if Dallas was scheming to limit production from the backs and easy passes to the TEs in the rain?

 

[PP2]

I have @'ed @footballzebras to see what the correct answer is, re: fumble. Hopefully they respond.

 

[Joker]

it's whatever the spot was when he recovered the fumble...beyond the 1st down line it's a first down

 

[PP2]

@footballzebras's response is a bit cryptic:

Any time there is a change of possession during a down, the ball is next put into play as a first down, which includes all double changes. This is different than a blocked punt behind the line, since possession is never surrendered.

What I take that to mean is that because a blocked punt is not considered a surrendering of the ball (as a fumble during a regular down would be), but a transfer of possession (since the punting team is electing to use the final down to transfer, rather than attempting to advance past the down marker), it is then meaningless who comes up with the ball behind the down marker.

I have asked them for further clarification.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

@footballzebras's response is a bit cryptic:

Any time there is a change of possession during a down, the ball is next put into play as a first down, which includes all double changes. This is different than a blocked punt behind the line, since possession is never surrendered.

What I take that to mean is that because a blocked punt is not considered a surrendering of the ball (as a fumble during a regular down would be), but a transfer of possession (since the punting team is electing to use the final down to transfer, rather than attempting to advance past the down marker), it is then meaningless who comes up with the ball behind the down marker.

I have asked them for further clarification.

Seems like a complex rule, which is why so many of us are unclear about it. But I wonder if “possession is never surrendered” refers to the block itself and not an actual recover/possession of the loose ball, followed by another turnover back to the original kicking team.

 

[PP2]

Seems like a complex rule, which is why so many of us are unclear about it. But I wonder if “possession is never surrendered” refers to the block itself and not an actual recover/possession of the loose ball, followed by another turnover back to the original kicking team.

I received a response to my follow-up question which was: "So, no matter whoever ends up with the ball, it's a turnover of the ball doesn't advance beyond the down marker?"

Answer:

Yes. Once there is an interception, fumble recovery, or a scrimmage kick goes beyond the line of scrimmage, the line to gain goes away for the remainder of the down. (Obviously doesn't apply if the play is nullified by penalty.)

 

[PP2]

Additionally, I think it would make sense that, as the punting team, you cannot continue to retain possession by any other means than advancing the ball beyond the down marker.

Otherwise, you would see coaches instructing their kickers to either intentionally allow themselves to be blocked, or kicking right into the crowd, in the hope of recovering an intentional fumble, and a new set of downs in a hail mary type of situation.