90 roster comp - 2017 vs 2018

[long distance]

Instead of jumping the gun at 53 4 months ahead of time . lets take a look at 90 roster first and see how much weaker this “underwhelming offseason“ 2018 roster is compared to “19-0“ of last year..

(underlined are offseason additions for each yr)


QB(3):
2017: Brady - Garoppolo - Brissett
2018: Brady - Hoyer - Etling

RB (7):
2017: Lewis - Burkhead - White - Gillislee - Bolden - DJ Foster - Daniels
2018: Michel - Burkhead - White - Gillislee - Bolden - Hill - Webb

WR (10/11):
2017: JE - Cooks - Hogan - Dola - Mitchell - Lucien - Carr - C.Hollister - Washington - Maye
2018: JE-Hogan-Mitchell-Dorsett-Britt-Matthews-Patterson-C.Hollister-McCarron-Berrios-Lacy

TE / FB (8):
2017: Gronk - Allen - O'Shag - Lengel - J.Hollister - Cotton // Develin - G.Gronk
2018: Gronk - Allen - Niklas - J.Hollister - Tye - Izzo - Wimann // Develin

OT (8):
2017: Cannon - Solder - Waddle - Fleming - Garcia* - McDermott - Jelks* - Rich
2018: Cannon - T.Brown - Waddle - Wynn(+G) - Garcia - Jelks(+G) - Tobin(+G) - John(+G)

*Jelks was on NFI entire preseason, Garcia joined him mid TC

IOL (8):
2017: Mason - Thuney - Andrews - Karras - Douglas - Croston - Ferentz - King
2018: Mason - Thuney (+T) - Andrews - Karras - Croston (+T) - Ferentz - King- Bowanko (+T)

_______________________________________________________

DT (8/7):
2017: Brown - Guy - Branch - Valentine - Hamilton - Kilgo - A.Butler - Augusta
2018: Brown - Guy - Shelton - Valentine - A.Butler - Atkins - Herron

DE** (7/8):
2017: Flowers - Ealy - Rivers* - Wise - Grissom - Vereen* - Kidder* - K.Davis*
2018: Flowers - Clayborn - Rivers - Wise - Grissom - Lee - K.Davis - Harris

** edge/off-line positions interchangeable for some DE/LB players
* Ninkovich announces retirement at start of TC
*Vereen put on IR before TC, Kidder signed before TC; Rivers on IR mid TC, K.Davis signed mid TC and placed on NFI
*** Marsh added at start of the season, Lee added mid-season

LB** (9/8):
2017: Hightower - KVN - McClellin - Roberts - Harris - Langi - Freeny - Bates - Ellis
2018: Hightower - KVN - M.Flowers* - Roberts - Bentley - Langi - Sam - Grigsby*

*M.Flowers added at start of 2017 season, Grigsby mid season

S (7):
2017: D-Mac - Chung - Harmon - Richards - D.Jones - Travis - Thompson
2018: D-Mac - Chung - Harmon - Richards - D.Jones - Travis - A.J.Moore

CB (10):
2017: Gilmore-Butler-Rowe-JJ-Cy.Jones-Coleman-Moore-Killings-Likely-D.Thomas
2018: Gilmore-J-Mac-Dawson-Rowe-JJ-Cy.Jones-Lewis-Wiltz-Crossen-J.C.Jackson

ST (3+3): same

________

 

[long distance]

id say hoodie did a pretty good job again . rosters seem pretty evenly matched

- the most significant difference is Garoppolo - as insurance/future
- one might argue WR group is significantly thinner at top w Cooks, Dola gone . but its pretty competitive and should deliver quality, versatile TB weapons
- other biggest FA losses were well replaced and might turn into upgrades
(T.Brown,Wynn for Solder, J-Mac,Dawson for Butler, Michel for Lewis, Shelton for Branch)
- I love Lewis and DJ Foster but id take 2018 group of RBs
- IOL could be significantly deeper w Croston and possibly Wynn entering the mix
- after big turnover last yr DE looks somewhat stabilised and better depth overall from 2017
- with a bit of hindsight/foresight similar goes for LB with stronger rookie additions;
and i wouldn't entirely sleep on Grigsby as STAR option (did well in game he got the nod)


> some will depend on the state of injured guys coming back and on sophomore jump of many last yrs 1st-timers (in NFL or NE) but i can easily see why Patriots are among favourites again despite fan/media nagging

> healthy cap space and 12 2019 picks (1x1,2x2,3x3,4,5,6+3x7) offer good chances to further strengthen the roster before the season

> if injury bug keeps the “every other year“ approach team should be ready to compete for all

 

[long distance]

btw & fwiw . athletic cards for two STAR options M.Flowers and Grigsby

M.Flowers: 6'25-231-4.51(1.58)-7.06-4.32-VJ:37.5-BJ:9.08-BP:24
N..Grigsby: 6'01-220-4.51(1.56)-6.90-4.27-VJ:36.5-BJ:10.04-BP:21

 

[long distance]

I see this topic is not as popular as nagging for better players and off-field drama..
Nevertheless let me add the 3rd side of the ball roster account.

In 2017 BB was pretty pissed by preseason ST play . trading 4 picks for core ST players just before the season started (Bademosi, M.Flowers and Marsh who was also brought in as edge depth/rotation option). The result was NE having one of best ST units in the league again giving the team significant situational advantage/leverage.

@ PR/KR

Despite that the team remained very thin at PR position after Jules and Cyrus went IR having to lean on Danny which was quite a risk. They were trying to bring some FA help throughout the season but nothing came out of it.

They lost both primary returners of 2017 Lewis and Dola this offseason. They added #1 KR in the league in Patterson and drafted Michel who is good option there as well if they want/need to use him. Two top projected PR (JE,Cyrus) are coming back from injuries, they added McCarron mid season and Berrios in the Draft.

2017 PR: Edelman, Cy.Jones, Amendola
2018 PR: Edelman, Cy.Jones, McCarron, Berrios

2017 KR: Lewis, Burkhead, (Wiltz added mid season to PS)
2018 KR: Patterson, Michel, Burkhead, Wiltz

More depth and quality here going into 2018.
Note that Patterson reportedly will try also as PR in training. With new KR rule that makes even more sense. They might try Dorsett at PR as well..
______

a look at other units coming up a bit later..

 

[WinstonSmith]

While I liked the draft, Bill, with limited resources, did his best work setting up the team prior to the draft.

My thoughts when comparing the 2017 vs 2018 90s: 1) Last year's 90 was more dynamic. 2) Let's hope that the Pats aren't top 5 in games missed again. 3) While this 90 isn't as dynamic it has more complimentary parts...kind of like the dirty dozen where a bunch of flawed guys bring specfic and valuable talents to the table. 4) This year's team has more potential to improve in phase 2 of free agency as well as adding players via trade. 5) Think this year's team will ultimately be a more complete and deep team that can better deal with injuries at most positions.

 

[maineman209]

2017: Gilmore-Butler-Rowe-JJ-Cy.Jones-Coleman-Moore-Killings-Likely-D.Thomas

This was deliberate, wasn't it?

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Great topic @long distance! This is a good way to look at the roster turnover. After perusal, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few veterans added -- this doesn't look like the full picture prior to camp. I can't wait until training camp to see how it all plays out.

 

[maineman209]

Croston might be due a (+T) in his listing.

 

[maineman209]

they added McCarron mid season

Minor point: McCarron was added to the PS prior to week-3.

 

[long distance]

Croston might be due a (+T) in his listing.

Thuney and Bowanko as well but with sudden albeit fragile depth at T i proactively (preventively) left it out..

 

[Bcc66duece]

I actually like this year's roster better, I think Michel is an upgrade over Lewis, the DE and DR positions look better, WR position is about the same as last year just different names, O-line maybe better if someone can play LT, and everything else is about the same.

 

[maineman209]

WR position is about the same as last year just different names,

IDK. It seems to me that there's a bit of difference between the 2016/2017 WR rosters in terms of the number of "proven pros". Not sure if it actually means anything.

2017:
Pros (~5/6?)
- Edelman, Cooks, Hogan, Dola
+ Mitchell, coming off a successful 1st season
+ Hawkins, temporarily for OTAs (retired just before Camp)

Former P-Squadders
- Lucien, White, Street
(White/Street replaced by camp bodies Washington/Maye)

Rookies
- Carr, C. Hollister

2018:
Pros (6+)
- Edelman, Hogan, Dorsett, Britt, Matthews, Patterson
+ Mitchell coming off 2nd-year IR

P-Squadders
- C. Hollister, McCarrron

Rookies
- Berrios, Lacy

-----
Another minor quibble, @long distance ...

IIRC, Washington and Maye weren't signed until just before Camp.

At this time last season, the Pats had:
- Devin Street - on-again/off-again P-squadder, released 6/22/17
- DeAndrew White - holdover 2016 P-squadder, released 5/24/17 and replaced by Andrew Hawkins (who retired on the eve of Camp).

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Great job @long distance. Feels like the top end receivers are a bit weaker without Cooks but if JE is healthy and Dorsett adds speed we didn't have for many years so I think it is OK. Also feels like 1 more real LB would be good. Last year I think the weak veteran signings, Ealy, Marsh, etc., and injuries were too much to overcome and we were a strip sack away from another SB win. This year should be good and 12 picks in 2019 means we keep going.

 

[long distance]

Another minor quibble, @long distance ...

IIRC, Washington and Maye weren't signed until just before Camp.

You're right. I used start of TC 2017 roster (more or less) bc thats what really matters at 90.
Hence i added that 2018 roster should strengthen some more before TC . but even as it is matches pretty well (minus Jimmy G of course). Funny to see such different “feels“ about two similar rosters.

Yes there are plenty Qs about injured guys coming back etc. but if you go back to last July there were big Qs as well (Gronk, Lewis, HT, Branch, Mitchell etc.).

And if you compare this roster to the winning 2016 TC 90 . most positions look significantly better/more promising apart from TE, LB & DE (and QB of course).

Here 2016 TC roster:
Running down the Patriots’ training camp roster, position by position

 

[50-yard-line]

Instead of jumping the gun at 53 4 months ahead of time . lets take a look at 90 roster first and see how much weaker this “underwhelming offseason“ 2018 roster is compared to “19-0“ of last year..

(underlined are offseason additions for each yr)


QB(3):
2017: Brady - Garoppolo - Brissett
2018: Brady - Hoyer - Etling

RB (7):
2017: Lewis - Burkhead - White - Gillislee - Bolden - DJ Foster - Daniels
2018: Michel - Burkhead - White - Gillislee - Bolden - Hill - Webb

WR (10/11):
2017: JE - Cooks - Hogan - Dola - Mitchell - Lucien - Carr - C.Hollister - Washington - Maye
2018: JE-Hogan-Mitchell-Dorsett-Britt-Matthews-Patterson-C.Hollister-McCarron-Berrios-Lacy

TE / FB (8):
2017: Gronk - Allen - O'Shag - Lengel - J.Hollister - Cotton // Develin - G.Gronk
2018: Gronk - Allen - Niklas - J.Hollister - Tye - Izzo - Wimann // Develin

OT (8):
2017: Cannon - Solder - Waddle - Fleming - Garcia* - McDermott - Jelks* - Rich
2018: Cannon - T.Brown - Waddle - Wynn(+G) - Garcia - Jelks(+G) - Tobin(+G) - John(+G)

*Jelks was on NFI entire preseason, Garcia joined him mid TC

IOL (8):
2017: Mason - Thuney - Andrews - Karras - Douglas - Croston - Ferentz - King
2018: Mason - Thuney (+T) - Andrews - Karras - Croston (+T) - Ferentz - King- Bowanko (+T)

_______________________________________________________

DT (8/7):
2017: Brown - Guy - Branch - Valentine - Hamilton - Kilgo - A.Butler - Augusta
2018: Brown - Guy - Shelton - Valentine - A.Butler - Atkins - Herron

DE** (7/8):
2017: Flowers - Ealy - Rivers* - Wise - Grissom - Vereen* - Kidder* - K.Davis*
2018: Flowers - Clayborn - Rivers - Wise - Grissom - Lee - K.Davis - Harris

** edge/off-line positions interchangeable for some DE/LB players
* Ninkovich announces retirement at start of TC
*Vereen put on IR before TC, Kidder signed before TC; Rivers on IR mid TC, K.Davis signed mid TC and placed on NFI
*** Marsh added at start of the season, Lee added mid-season

LB** (9/8):
2017: Hightower - KVN - McClellin - Roberts - Harris - Langi - Freeny - Bates - Ellis
2018: Hightower - KVN - M.Flowers* - Roberts - Bentley - Langi - Sam - Grigsby*

*M.Flowers added at start of 2017 season, Grigsby mid season

S (7):
2017: D-Mac - Chung - Harmon - Richards - D.Jones - Travis - Thompson
2018: D-Mac - Chung - Harmon - Richards - D.Jones - Travis - A.J.Moore

CB (10):
2017: Gilmore-Butler-Rowe-JJ-Cy.Jones-Coleman-Moore-Killings-Likely-D.Thomas
2018: Gilmore-J-Mac-Dawson-Rowe-JJ-Cy.Jones-Lewis-Wiltz-Crossen-J.C.Jackson

ST (3+3): same

________

First off, what an outstanding thread and a breath of fresh air. Thanks!

Group by group:

QB: Obviously thinner, but that's irrelevant as long as they keep Brady upright.

RB: Hinges on Michel vs. Lewis. Michel is a question mark, as he's a rookie, but Lewis, too, was a question mark last year after his injury. Looks like a wash, but I think Michel could actually prove more valuable.

WR: A bit weaker on paper to start, so here's hoping for better health from JE and Mitchell.

TE: Deeper (Niklas more useful than O'Shag), and hopefully Allen can contribute more if he sticks around. Pretty much a wash.

OT: Deeper. Not sure on the front-end quality (Solder vs. Brown, Garcia, or Wynn), but looks solid on paper.

IOL: Better, even if it's the same guys and same backups. All young, with another year together. That matters.
________________________________

DT: On paper, looks like a wash, or even better last year. But Branch wasn't Branch, and Shelton should fix that gaping hole Branch's injuries/play left.

DE: Better. Even before the injuries are considered. Clayborn > Ealy, and more likely to fit.

LB: Flowers more athletic than McLellan, but pretty much the same.

S: Same.

CB: Same, unless a rookie steps up big or J Jones continues his arc.

So the team looks to me much the same as last year, going in. Remember the 19-0 talk going into last year?

That was derailed pretty quickly by lots of injuries in key places, then further eroded by the play of Branch and Butler (who might have made a difference in the SB, I agree, but who wasn't really very good at all most of last year).

No major upgrades, no major drop-offs, on a team that was favored last year, and should be again this year. Also, they've got some money left, so maybe there's an add or two coming.

 

[long distance]

First off, what an outstanding thread and a breath of fresh air. Thanks!

Group by group:

QB: Obviously thinner, but that's irrelevant as long as they keep Brady upright.

RB: Hinges on Michel vs. Lewis. Michel is a question mark, as he's a rookie, but Lewis, too, was a question mark last year after his injury. Looks like a wash, but I think Michel could actually prove more valuable.

WR: A bit weaker on paper to start, so here's hoping for better health from JE and Mitchell.

TE: Deeper (Niklas more useful than O'Shag), and hopefully Allen can contribute more if he sticks around. Pretty much a wash.

OT: Deeper. Not sure on the front-end quality (Solder vs. Brown, Garcia, or Wynn), but looks solid on paper.

IOL: Better, even if it's the same guys and same backups. All young, with another year together. That matters.
________________________________

DT: On paper, looks like a wash, or even better last year. But Branch wasn't Branch, and Shelton should fix that gaping hole Branch's injuries/play left.

DE: Better. Even before the injuries are considered. Clayborn > Ealy, and more likely to fit.

LB: Flowers more athletic than McLellan, but pretty much the same.

S: Same.

CB: Same, unless a rookie steps up big or J Jones continues his arc.

So the team looks to me much the same as last year, going in. Remember the 19-0 talk going into last year?

That was derailed pretty quickly by lots of injuries in key places, then further eroded by the play of Branch and Butler (who might have made a difference in the SB, I agree, but who wasn't really very good at all most of last year).

No major upgrades, no major drop-offs, on a team that was favored last year, and should be again this year. Also, they've got some money left, so maybe there's an add or two coming.

Thanks. Agreed on most part.

Last yr i had a bad feeling about Ealy after his first presser and this year it is similar with T.Brown. Both were very solid offseason moves and ok gambles on iffy vet characters in contract years at positions of need. The better thing about T.Brown is that Dante will not tolerate his **** so lets hope it works out at least until Wynn, Garcia are ready to step up. His measurables, play and position could bring investment back even if he doesn't pan out..

 

[maineman209]

WR: A bit weaker on paper to start, so here's hoping for better health from JE and Mitchell.

IDK. Maybe "weaker" at the top end. But then, there are guys like Britt, Matthews, Dorsett and Patterson competing just to make the roster, as opposed to P-squadders and camp-body types like Lucien, Washington and Maye.

 

[mgteich]

IDK. Maybe "weaker" at the top end. But then, there are guys like Britt, Matthews, Dorsett and Patterson competing just to make the roster, as opposed to P-squadders and camp-body types like Lucien, Washington and Maye.

This is true, and relevant if there is an injury to one of the top receivers. The top 3 wr's account for over 95% of the WR receptions. And little of this is the 3rd WR. If there were no injuries, the offensive production would not be much different with 3 active WR each game for the entire year.

I would note that there is a focus on KR and PR. It would be great to use WR's other than one of our top 3. However, this takes up an active roster spot. With all this competition, we may have Edelman, Hogan and the KR and PR active.
======
I do think that we'll carry 6 players that will be labeled "WR". This will include Slater, our PR and KR.

 

[long distance]

Here an article on the 90 roster topic fwiw

New England Patriots roster 2018: Which are the strongest (and weakest) position groups?

 

[supafly]

IDK. Maybe "weaker" at the top end. But then, there are guys like Britt, Matthews, Dorsett and Patterson competing just to make the roster, as opposed to P-squadders and camp-body types like Lucien, Washington and Maye.

The competition looks to be the strongest at the position than we’ve seen in a very long time, at least in the BB era. It may actually be the strongest competition at WR that we’ve ever seen.

If he can return punts, even a guy like Berrios has something of a shot. There will be quality journeymen WRs who won’t make the cut this year. I think the position is wide open.