PATRIOTS NEWS Belichick criticism mega-thread

[Hyped]

1) Belichick is indeed a great HC and if Lawrence is the real deal Bill would definitely help the Jags improve.
2) What Brady has done has been unprecedented, but it was when Belichick decided to move on from him. Bill should have seen how special Brady was then and kept him here.
3) The funny thing about the list of players you provided is that most of them from the top group, Gronk the GOAT TE, Big Sey, Adam, Big Vince, Wes and Logan, were also let go, just as Brady was.
4) I agree that Bill is the GOAT HC but he's not the GOAT GM, and his biggest blunder and the reason for my frustration with him is that he let the GOAT QB leave and had no other option in place. I still don't understand why.

I disagree that letting Brady go was a blunder. Brady on the Pats in 2020 = First round exit again, IMO. Brady as of 2020 was an albatross on our cap....the blunder was in not EXTENDING Brady back in 2017-2018 and choosing to go year to year. Look at how screwed the Saints are right now with their cap & Brees? They cut Brees' salary waaaayyy down to 1M or something. Now go back to 2017....Brady just lost the Superbowl despite passing for 500+ yards....that was WHEN we should have extended him. But I cannot lay blame on BB for not wanting to commit to Brady beyond 2019....his age 42 season. If you had asked me in 2014...I'd say Brady would only have 3 seasons left of elite play....his performances in 2017 and 2018 surprised even me.

As for the other guys being let go....the only ones who had any kind of success were Gronk, Seymour, Wilfork, Welker, Mankins, and Law....but they all played 1 (and counting), 5, 2, 2.5, 2, and 5 more years respectively and cashed big checks that we weren't willing to pay.

And who do you have as the GOAT GM? Ron Wolf? For my $$$$....I take Belichick every day and twice on Sundays. Belichick's strength isn't in making draft picks, but rather in bringing in UDFA's and bargain basement FA's to be coached up & to foster competition. BB has been very good at finding diamonds in the rough.... like Brady, Malcom Butler, David Givens, Julian Edelman, etc....all drafted in rounds 6+.....

 

[amfootball]

I disagree that letting Brady go was a blunder. Brady on the Pats in 2020 = First round exit again, IMO. Brady as of 2020 was an albatross on our cap....the blunder was in not EXTENDING Brady back in 2017-2018 and choosing to go year to year. Look at how screwed the Saints are right now with their cap & Brees? They cut Brees' salary waaaayyy down to 1M or something. Now go back to 2017....Brady just lost the Superbowl despite passing for 500+ yards....that was WHEN we should have extended him. But I cannot lay blame on BB for not wanting to commit to Brady beyond 2019....his age 42 season. If you had asked me in 2014...I'd say Brady would only have 3 seasons left of elite play....his performances in 2017 and 2018 surprised even me.

As for the other guys being let go....the only ones who had any kind of success were Gronk, Seymour, Wilfork, Welker, Mankins, and Law....but they all played 1 (and counting), 5, 2, 2.5, 2, and 5 more years respectively and cashed big checks that we weren't willing to pay.

And who do you have as the GOAT GM? Ron Wolf? For my $$$$....I take Belichick every day and twice on Sundays. Belichick's strength isn't in making draft picks, but rather in bringing in UDFA's and bargain basement FA's to be coached up & to foster competition. BB has been very good at finding diamonds in the rough.... like Brady, Malcom Butler, David Givens, Julian Edelman, etc....all drafted in rounds 6+.....

Polian was a heck of a GM with multiple teams.

 

[Deus Irae]

We will never know (you even said so earlier), but maybe letting Brady go opens the door for a younger QB that wouldn't have been available to us. And maybe the young QB gives us fans a new way to enjoy the Patriots succeed indifferent ways.

How'd that work last year? I ask because last year is literally the only year where that mattered. If BB pulls a QB out of his ass this year, it has nothing to do with letting Brady go last year, unless you mean that the Patriots sucked enough to draft higher.

And, if it is the case where you're talking about the draft slot, then BB did a crap job of getting higher in the draft. He should have been doing things like playing Stidham and "giving the young players a longer look" in order to tank without tanking.

 

[Ring 6]

Who's damning Walsh? Christ all I did was leave him out of my Top 5.

Gibbs never had a HoF QB and Walsh did so it's impossible to come up with that conclusion. Feel free to speculate.

What we do know is in his 10 years with SF Walsh's offense finished on average 6th with a HoF QB.

From 1981-1992 Joe Gibb's offense finished on average 8th w/o a HoF QB.

You compared Gibbs and Walsh, and despite Walsh winning the same number of SBs in 10 years vs 16 that Gibbs is better because Walsh developed a qb and Gibbs didn’t.
Developing that QB is what makes Walsh better.

 

[Ring 6]

Walsh had a very specific offense and he specifically targeted Montana to run it. I am not sure how his system would have worked with a less efficient, less patient QB. For example, I doubt Marino has the patience to run the ball as much as Montana did and hit all those shallow crossers and slants.

If Marino was coached to do that and it worked, Marino would have been fine with it. The Marino you consider is the one created and coached by Shula.

 

[Ring 6]

How'd that work last year? I ask because last year is literally the only year where that mattered. If BB pulls a QB out of his ass this year, it has nothing to do with letting Brady go last year, unless you mean that the Patriots sucked enough to draft higher.

And, if it is the case where you're talking about the draft slot, then BB did a crap job of getting higher in the draft. He should have been doing things like playing Stidham and "giving the young players a longer look" in order to tank without tanking.

It’s not only last year because if somehow they had persuaded Brady to stay while they had zero $$ to keep the 2019 team in tact much less improve it, then they would have committed to him this year and ultimately until he breaks down.
Tanking would have set them back much further than competing.

 

[Calhoun44]

It doesn't matter who the greatest ever is. I am just amazed that we had BB for this long coaching our favorite football team. That we have had one of the all time greats in every sport in the Boston area is amazing. Russel, Bird, Orr, Williams, Brady, Auerbach, and Belichick. Am I missing anyone? How many cities, regions can claim that type of elite players/coaches?

 

[Calhoun44]

How'd that work last year?

Not ideal, but to be honest I was just content that there was an NFL season and I am one of the weirdos that enjoyed watching Cam play last year (despite his deficiencies).

 

[RobertWeathers]

You compared Gibbs and Walsh, and despite Walsh winning the same number of SBs in 10 years vs 16 that Gibbs is better because Walsh developed a qb and Gibbs didn’t.
Developing that QB is what makes Walsh better.

Gibbs never developed QBs?

 

[Hyped]

Polian was a heck of a GM with multiple teams.

Polian? That is all you got?

Dunno if he didn't do anything I wouldn't have done myself. Draft Kelly? Manning? Sign Bruce Smith? Draft Edge and deal Faulk? I think I only give him credit for his work with the Panthers which was impressive for an expansion team.

 

[amfootball]

If Marino was coached to do that and it worked, Marino would have been fine with it. The Marino you consider is the one created and coached by Shula.

Marino played the exact same way under Johnson too. He said himself that he always wanted to throw the ball and would audible out of runs.

 

[amfootball]

Polian? That is all you got?

Dunno if he didn't do anything I wouldn't have done myself. Draft Kelly? Manning? Sign Bruce Smith? Draft Edge and deal Faulk? I think I only give him credit for his work with the Panthers which was impressive for an expansion team.

He built championship caliber teams with 3 different organizations spanning 3 decades and like you said one was expansion. That is the most impressive of the modern era IMO.

 

[Deus Irae]

Not ideal, but to be honest I was just content that there was an NFL season and I am one of the weirdos that enjoyed watching Cam play last year (despite his deficiencies).

It was a tire fire. And stop moving the goalposts.

 

[RobertWeathers]

He built championship caliber teams with 3 different organizations spanning 3 decades and like you said one was expansion. That is the most impressive of the modern era IMO.

Polian is a jerk but his accomplishments speak for themselves.

 

[ralmat55]

Great coaches win games without a HoF QB. Do they win the SB? More often than not they don't, but they still get their teams in a position to win one.

Thats why I think a guy like Shottsie is a great coach. Everywhere he went he got his team in a position to contend for a Super Bowl. Just never had a HoF QB to do it.

I think Andy Reid is a great coach. He got a HoF-caliber talent at Qb and voila! He wins the Super Bowl.

BB took a 3-13 team and went 11-5 in 1994. Went to the divisionals. Did he win, nope but once he partnered with a financially-stable, level-headed owner and his HoF QB the record speaks for itself.

**** Vermeil rebuilt Philly, the Rams and KC. Great coach.

Chuck Knox- Rams, BUF and SEA

George Allen - Rams and WASH

...and Tuna

I've also listed a few other examples in another post.

None of those coaches you listed were older than 65 when they retired with the exception of Reid who’s only 62 now. I guess depending on your age that might seem old. George Allen seemed ancient to me when he was coaching Washington, but he was my age now at the time. Bill Belichick turns 69 years old next month. The difference may be insignificant to you, but it is significant enough that it’s wishful thinking to not doubt whether Bill Belichick is anywhere near the coach he was when he was 49 or 59 years old or and whether he still has it in him to rebuild this Patriots team back to a competitive level.

Social Security didn’t just arbitrarily chose 65 (now 67) as the age a person was eligible for full benefits. Research shows that’s the age a person’s cognitive capacity, judgement and health have declined to the degree that a person can no longer fully function in the work force. Auto insurers don’t want to insure drivers over 70, especially men, because the actuarial information shows an incident rate that makes it nearly impossible to be profitable business. There is a hill that one can be over, and Bill is at an age where he might be.

Age effects people similar to alcohol. It impairs their judgment and tends to accentuate their worst personality traits. As an example, no matter what you think of Bob Kraft, he would never have been caught dead in a place like Orchids of Asia when he was 57 or 67 years old - sad widower or not. I’ve watched guys like Joe Paterno and Woody Hayes hang on way too long and bring shame to themselves and their universities. Over the weekend, I watched Duke play North Carolina in college basketball. 70 year old Roy Williams and 74 year old Mike Krzyzewski two of the all-time great college coaches who you would think still have their pick of recruits and neither team is ranked in the top 25 and, as I understand it, Duke might not even make the tournament.

Bill has done a lot to anger me over the last few seasons, but his legacy is intertwined with the legacy of the New England Patriots, and I don’t want to see either significantly tarnished. I hope Josh, Matt, and Ziegler can give him all the help he needs to rebuild this team ASAP. But, it’s far from a sure thing despite what many here may think.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Gibbs never developed QBs?

Gibbs win Supebowls with Thiesmann, Doug Williams, and Mark Rypien as his starting QB.

and he has a great NASCAR team

 

[crawhammer]

It wasn't a flaw to bench him and if the defense had stepped it up and made plays it would have been brilliant.

The flaw was being stubborn and not allowing Butler to play after the first half when it was apparent the defense was garbage and needed a playmaker.

At that point the in the game, Bill had already made his point and Butler was in tears wanting to help his teammates out.

Butler would have played like a man possessed in the second half had Bill allowed it, and that would have been brilliant as well. Worse case scenario you give up a TD every drive like they did anyways.

You said "it wasn't a flaw for Belichick to bench Butler" but then speculated that "he would have played like a man possessed" had he been given the chance. If the the latter would have been true then the decision was definitely flawed. You're trying to say Belichick is "brilliant" no matter what when in reality you're arguing Belichick made an arbitrary decision, stubbornly stuck with it, and it cost the team a Super Bowl.

I don't think the point they are making with that example is that he sucks, but that he isn't some mythical coach.

Bill is still clearly a genius coach. When you see his time management skills alone it separates him from coaches like Andy Reid.

Bill still has his flaws, like when he benched Butler for the Superbowl vs the Eagles, but he was the perfect HC for Brady and they are GOAT duo forever.

I agree you can't separate Belichick and Brady 2001-2019 because they were the only two constants throughout the entirety of the Patriots dynasty. If you want to give them equal credit for it then that's how you see it and likely your opinion can't be swayed at this point. However, if you don't just chose to ignore it, there is a sampling of what each can do without the other and that data will be mounting.

1. Together they win. 2. Brady without Belichick still wins. 3. Belichick without Brady loses. Belichick HAS TO change 3 or 1 & 2 will simply read more like Brady wins.

 

[Ring 6]

Gibbs never developed QBs?

Not like Walsh did. That’s why he had 3 different ones.

 

[Ring 6]

Marino played the exact same way under Johnson too. He said himself that he always wanted to throw the ball and would audible out of runs.

Because that’s how he was coached as a young player. If he played in Walsh’s WCO he would have developed a different approach.

 

[Ring 6]

Gibbs win Supebowls with Thiesmann, Doug Williams, and Mark Rypien as his starting QB.

and he has a great NASCAR team

In between those the Sb winning QBs were Montana, plummet, McMahon, Hostetler so the idea you needed a hof qb to win in thise days is based upon bill Walsh coaching Montana into a HOF QB and otherwise a great QB wasn’t necessary.