Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[TheRainMaker]

Its kinda sad the whole board is turning on BB after one season . But didn't expect any different.This is boston. Fans and Media are the most fickle minded when it comes to their team. I hope BB leaves so that people here can start threads like "Good Riddance" and see where the franchise heads. Here is another mediot

https://www.radio.com/weei/sports/patriots/laird-is-bill-belichick-worth-usd20-million-a-year

And the voices are only going to get louder if goes on.

Do you want him fired tommorow ? Is yes who you want as his replacement ?

As GM? Yes. But because that's not possible, bring in someone like Floyd Reese that has experience at GM and has put together some good teams. How about asking if Ozzie Newsome would come aboard as an advisor role like Reese? Because that probably won't happen either, he's back on the clock like he was in 2001 going 5-13 with an eventual $100M QB. He has his work cut out for him.

 

[Biffins]

People need to relax. It was a subpar year after losing the GOAT QB. If we're still racking up 7-9 seasons in 2-3 years, i can understand. Emotions are running wild after 20 years of supremacy.

Why is it that Saints are 8-1 this year and last year when Brees was injured. They are not making excuses. They are also paying Brees the same rate ($25m per year) that I wish we were still paying Brady. Apparently their roster is one of the strongest across the board.

PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders

The New Orleans Saints enter the NFL playoffs with one of the better records among remaining teams at 12-4, but how do they stack up on a position-by-position basis? Pro Football Focus analyst Ian Hartitz surveyed the group of contenders and ended up ranking New Or

saintswire.usatoday.com

How come we're all like "oh guys we kicked Brady out so of course we're going to be 6-10, it's ok!! Of course our roster sucks from top to bottom, Brady left. This is not Bill's fault". Meanwhile Saints can go 8-1 without Brees, and smash games without him, and have a stacked roster.

At what point do we call Bill out on his excuses?

 

[Tony2046]

Why is it that Saints are 8-1 this year and last year when Brees was injured. They are not making excuses. They are also paying Brees the same rate ($25m per year) that I wish we were still paying Brady. Apparently their roster is one of the strongest across the board.

PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders

The New Orleans Saints enter the NFL playoffs with one of the better records among remaining teams at 12-4, but how do they stack up on a position-by-position basis? Pro Football Focus analyst Ian Hartitz surveyed the group of contenders and ended up ranking New Or

saintswire.usatoday.com

How come we're all like "oh guys we kicked Brady out so of course we're going to be 6-10, it's ok!! Of course our roster sucks from top to bottom, Brady left. This is not Bill's fault". Meanwhile Saints can go 8-1 without Brees, and smash games without him, and have a stacked roster.

At what point do we call Bill out on his excuses?

Saints have one Lombardi trophy. One. Ten years ago. Pump the brakes bub.

 

[Guts]

Why is it that Saints are 8-1 this year and last year when Brees was injured. They are not making excuses. They are also paying Brees the same rate ($25m per year) that I wish we were still paying Brady. Apparently their roster is one of the strongest across the board.

PFF suggests Saints may have the best roster among playoff contenders

The New Orleans Saints enter the NFL playoffs with one of the better records among remaining teams at 12-4, but how do they stack up on a position-by-position basis? Pro Football Focus analyst Ian Hartitz surveyed the group of contenders and ended up ranking New Or

saintswire.usatoday.com

How come we're all like "oh guys we kicked Brady out so of course we're going to be 6-10, it's ok!! Of course our roster sucks from top to bottom, Brady left. This is not Bill's fault". Meanwhile Saints can go 8-1 without Brees, and smash games without him, and have a stacked roster.

At what point do we call Bill out on his excuses?

Saints are about to enter cap hell. They haven't won **** since 09

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I'm with the pump the brakes caucus. I get that having a losing record after 20 years of domination of the entire league looks like slam-dunk proof that BB sucks as a coach, but I'm thinking he's bought a bit more than a single cash-strapped plague year for us to judge by.

 

[crawhammer]

Do you want him fired tommorow ? Is yes who you want as his replacement ?

I wanted him fired after Super Bowl 52. That was the very last straw for me.

Let be clear about this, sincerely, I think Belichick is the most overrated person in the history of professional sports. And until he proves he can win without Brady, which he has never done, I am going state my case.

Belichick f'd over Brady a number of times... revolving doors at the skill positions... Brady had one elite WR in 18 seasons, Moss, and that was for 2 seasons only. How many crappy draft picks and has-been veteran receivers has Belichick dumped on Brady? It's ridiculous.

Brady made his slot receivers look like gold because he's so adept at those short to intermediate throws into tight windows. I don't think he's thrown an inaccurate pass to a back yet either.

For some unknown reason, after Brady went off for 500 yards in a Super Bowl, Belichick started treating him like a declining game manager while ****ing him around with his contracts. I'm surprised Brady stuck around as long as he did.

But yeah, I was losing my mind during the 2015 season that Belichick f'd up completely with horribly bad decisions. He blew at least three games which cost them the 1 seed and a trip to the Super Bowl. I would have been ok with his firing then but after he benched Malcolm Butler in Super Bowl 52 that was absolutely it.

As far as his replacement, that would depend on when theoretically he was fired. If you're talking now, then I'm more concerned with who's handling the personnel decisions because the roster is a complete mess. I'd prefer the individual who made it so not also be tasked with fixing it.

 

[Tunescribe]

I think Belichick is the most overrated person in the history of professional sports. And until he proves he can win without Brady, which he has never done, I am going state my case.

One of the most ridiculous posts ever to soil this august forum, offering proof that like the lower sphincter everyone has an opinion. Unfortunately, in this case, the two appear to have been conflated. Please do yourself and everyone else a favor and steer clear of this place when BB achieves the NFL Hall of Fame in his first minutes of eligibility.

 

[skinnydog]

Saints have one Lombardi trophy. One. Ten years ago. Pump the brakes bub.

Because they have Brees not Brady.

 

[skinnydog]

I'm with the pump the brakes caucus. I get that having a losing record after 20 years of domination of the entire league looks like slam-dunk proof that BB sucks as a coach, but I'm thinking he's bought a bit more than a single cash-strapped plague year for us to judge by.

It’s not the cap it’s the miserable drafting over the past 5-6 years and poor free agent signings with a few exceptions

 

[Tony2046]

I wanted him fired after Super Bowl 52. That was the very last straw for me.

Let be clear about this, sincerely, I think Belichick is the most overrated person in the history of professional sports. And until he proves he can win without Brady, which he has never done, I am going state my case.

Belichick f'd over Brady a number of ... revolving doors at the skill positions... Brady had one elite WR in 18 seasons, Moss, and that was for 2 seasons only. How many crappy draft picks and has-been veteran receivers has Belichick dumped on Brady? It's ridiculous.

Brady made his slot receivers look like gold because he's so adept at those short to intermediate throws into tight windows. I don't think he's thrown an inaccurate pass to a back yet either.

For some unknown reason, after Brady went off for 500 yards in a Super Bowl, Belichick started treating him like a declining game manager while ****ing him around with his contracts. I'm surprised Brady stuck around as long as he did.

But yeah, I was losing my mind during the 2015 season that Belichick f'd up completely with horribly bad decisions. He blew at least three games which cost them the 1 seed and a trip to the Super Bowl. I would have been ok with his firing then but after he benched Malcolm Butler in Super Bowl 52 that was absolutely it.

As far as his replacement, that would depend on when theoretically he was fired. If you're talking now, then I'm more concerned with who's handling the personnel decisions because the roster is a complete mess. I'd prefer the individual who made it so not also be tasked with fixing it.

What an affluenza stricken opinion. Spoiled much?

How can anyone take your BS seriously?

 

[Tony2046]

Because they have Brees not Brady.

Brees is one of the best QBs in NFL history. Try again. Coaching matters.

 

[Brewskies]

What is there to debate?
Belichick was the coach and developed the strategies for each game.
Brady was the quarterback.
Belichick as the GM provided all the outstanding, exceptional targets for Brady to throw to and provided the QB protection.
Belichick made Brady.

Anything else you need to know?

Go BB
Go, Patriots,

 

[PatsFanInVa]

It’s not the cap it’s the miserable drafting over the past 5-6 years and poor free agent signings with a few exceptions

I live in the Washington metro area. Here, they don't have the Krafts, they have Dan Snyder. He was, at least at first, famous for being a really hands-on guy... paying enormous contracts for big names, giving them all the money up front, and perpetually stinking up the joint. They got to draft early, and landed all sorts of big name college talent whose names I dont remember, except RGIII. To be fair, I thought that kid seemed super-smart too. But I don't belong in an NFL war room. Oh that's right, neither do you.

For years, Washington has been heaven for "real football fans," the guys who call talk radio, certain that they could do just as good a job as the coach/gm of the team, heck, probably way better, and always know the exact solution for whatever they imagine ails the team. They LOVE it! The only thing that could gainsay their legitimacy would be winning.

Of course, their legitimacy is at present threatened by the slim possibility of a return to relevance. The 7-9, NFC East Champion WFT (I know, too close, innit?) plays the Bucs this Sunday as a wild card team. Hail to the Football Team, as they say hereabouts when following football rather than current events. Or just, HTTFT. (What could EVER ding the local Washingtonian's self-image worse than losing that team name? Don't answer that. We're not allowed to.)

The 7-9, third place New England Patriots, as we all know, are eliminated.

And like magic, here you are. Hello, Skinnydog. I don't believe we've met. Welcome. I know it's going to be an especially important off-season for the draftnik contingent, recently emboldened to insist that only they can right the ship. I'll even be popping on to read some of the specific opinions.

We have some health challenges in the PFnV household, and we're both getting on in years... and this year, given a confluence of factors, I haven't been hanging on every play. Not like the fans in the stands, anyway. Little joke there. I also just can't get into quick condemnation as easily as I might when I was younger, and each year seemed endless. Now they fly by -- even a 7-9 year. In fact, this one was so eventful in other ways that I barely noticed the stank of the season.

I do remain unconvinced, however, that Belichick is a terrible coach, or for that matter, that Bill the GM is a terrible GM. I do know that, in the past, he's considered the integration of the two roles to be the model under which he prefers to operate. I think he's got a bit of warning track before somebody pulls out that particular rug.

I'd love to see a fantastic 2021, on that I am sure (well, almost sure,) we agree

 

[1960Pats]

Brees is one of the best QBs in NFL history. Try again. Coaching matters.

A team could have done a lot worse than Brees at QB and Peyton at HC. They turned the Aints around, even though they only won one SB.

 

[Kontradiction]

Brees is one of the best QBs in NFL history. Try again. Coaching matters.

Of course. But not nearly as much as the QB. The players on the field play and win the game. Coaches just try to put them in the best positions to succeed at that. Bill himself said players win the game and coaches can only lose them. Not that I think you’re disagreeing with that notion, I just think it needs to be pointed out. I’ll have to bring up the preseason predictions thread again, but quite a few on here had this as a playoff squad simply because of Bill. That’s not the way sports work. You need the horses. The players. We didn’t have that. I said 8-8, but it was actually worse than that - by one game. In that prediction, I was actually being optimistic because the roster said 4-12, but I had enough confidence in Bill and his staff churning out 4 more wins than that.

 

[Tony2046]

Of course. But not nearly as much as the QB. The players on the field play and win the game. Coaches just try to put them in the best positions to succeed at that. Bill himself said players win the game and coaches can only lose them. Not that I think you’re disagreeing with that notion, I just think it needs to be pointed out. I’ll have to bring up the preseason predictions thread again, but quite a few on here had this as a playoff squad simply because of Bill. That’s not the way sports work. You need the horses. The players. We didn’t have that. I said 8-8, but it was actually worse than that - by one game. In that prediction, I was actually being optimistic because the roster said 4-12, but I had enough confidence in Bill and his staff churning out 4 more wins than that.

I agree with everything you said.

Years ago I was stationed in Germany in a unit run by a good ole boy type first sergeant. Nice guy but lacked leadership. Everyone still did their jobs but there wasn't any real sense of urgency. He was replaced by a tough as nails vietnam vet. Everything changed practically overnight. Everyone was held accountable for their actions. I loved it.

Culture, environment, cap management, coaching etc...etc...and talent are all necessary for a championship caliber team. If you have less of one you need more of the other or something like that.

Although I like the thought that Tom or BB would have won three championships without the other, I think it is just as possible that each would not have won any without the other. That partnership was special. They needed each other to achieve what they did.

Anyway I'll leave it at that because unlike Pudge I have some work to do.

 

[crawhammer]

One of the most ridiculous posts ever to soil this august forum, offering proof that like the lower sphincter everyone has an opinion. Unfortunately, in this case, the two appear to have been conflated. Please do yourself and everyone else a favor and steer clear of this place when BB achieves the NFL Hall of Fame in his first minutes of eligibility.

I never denied Belichick would be a first ballot hall a famer. His resume requires it. The asterisk on Belichick is 1) devious practices and 2) he hasn't won anything as a head coach without Brady. He still has time to change the latter but I'm betting against it. He's tried 8 times already and he's 0-8.

Your overall response is typical (you and that dope who called me spoiled)... anyone who doesn't unconditionally worship Belichick must be a fool. You can't take the interaction anywhere else because if you actually tried to refute something I said then you would fail.

Are any of these statements inaccurate?:

1. It was a revolving door at the skill positions (particularly WR) throughout Brady's time in NE.

2. Belichick drafted poorly at WR and brought in many has-been veteran receivers who did not work out.

3. Brady had 1 elite WR throughout his time in NE; Moss for 2 seasons only.
(The next best receiver was Welker but he worked mostly out of the slot receiver position which thrived in NE due to Brady and the scheme.)

4. Belichick treated Brady like a declining game manager after the 2017 season.

5. Belichick ****ed Brady around with his last two contracts at least.

6. Brady got fed up with 4 & 5 in particular (but also 1 & 2) so as a result he left the NE franchise (i.e. Belichick essentially forced Brady out of town).

7. Belichick made horribly bad decisions that contributed to at least 3 losses of the 2015 season (vs Eagles, Jets and Dolphins) which cost the team the 1 seed and very likely a trip to the Super Bowl.

8. Belichick benched Malcolm Butler for Super Bowl 52. NE lost the game. The former led to the latter.

 

[SVN]

I never denied Belichick would be a first ballot hall a famer. His resume requires it. The asterisk on Belichick is 1) devious practices and 2) he hasn't won anything as a head coach without Brady. He still has time to change the latter but I'm betting against it. He's tried 8 times already and he's 0-8.

Your overall response is typical (you and that dope who called me spoiled)... anyone who doesn't unconditionally worship Belichick must be a fool. You can't take the interaction anywhere else because if you actually tried to refute something I said then you would fail.

Are any of these statements inaccurate?:

1. It was a revolving door at the skill positions (particularly WR) throughout Brady's time in NE.

2. Belichick drafted poorly at WR and brought in many has-been veteran receivers who did not work out.

3. Brady had 1 elite WR throughout his time in NE; Moss for 2 seasons only.
(The next best receiver was Welker but he worked mostly out of the slot receiver position which thrived in NE due to Brady and the scheme.)

4. Belichick treated Brady like a declining game manager after the 2017 season.

5. Belichick ****ed Brady around with his last two contracts at least.

6. Brady got fed up with 4 & 5 in particular (but also 1 & 2) so as a result he left the NE franchise (i.e. Belichick essentially forced Brady out of town).

7. Belichick made horribly bad decisions that contributed to at least 3 losses of the 2015 season (vs Eagles, Jets and Dolphins) which cost the team the 1 seed and very likely a trip to the Super Bowl.

8. Belichick benched Malcolm Butler for Super Bowl 52. NE lost the game. The former led to the latter.

Please suggest who you wouldve had as coach last 20 yrs. ? Since anyone wouldve won with brady. .

 

[TheRainMaker]

Please suggest who you wouldve had as coach last 20 yrs. ? Since anyone wouldve won with brady. .

But what if Bill continues to have seasons like this? The whole point is that Bill has come back down to Earth and doesn't have his cheat code in Tom Brady anymore. He now has to deal with what most Coaches in the NFL have to deal with and that's struggling to win because they don't have an Elite QB. Speaking of that, he couldn't get much out a freshly signed $100M QB in Bledsoe. So as I've said before, the clock has reset to 2000-2001. Lets see how Bill does without winning the football lottery in Tom Brady.

 

[SVN]

But what if Bill continues to have seasons like this? The whole point is that Bill has come back down to Earth and doesn't have his cheat code in Tom Brady anymore. He now has to deal with what most Coaches in the NFL have to deal with and that's struggling to win because they don't have an Elite QB. As I've said before, the clock has reset to 2000-2001. Lets see how Bill does without winning the football lottery in Tom Brady.

Sure but that is not the point which was being made. Also , which coach or HOF coach has done amazing without a QB ? It is a players game and all coaches need the most important player in the QB. when the combo is good then they are deadly. See the yr, sean payton was suspended. Brees didnt carry them to the SB either.