Debate Brady vs Belichick?

[Steve102]

They don’t win the Super Bowl against the Panthers without him. The defense folded like a cheap tent in the second half.

I agree. Go back to the snow bowl. Brady was a JAG until the fumble. Then he suddenly became TFB. He ascended to GOAT level starting in 2007, but the seeds were sown long before that.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Also , which coach or HOF coach has done amazing without a QB ?

Not many. I do agree that players and Coaches go hand in hand though. However, Bill has had the ultimate cheat code and a massive advantage over the rest of the NFL. In fact, it's so large, you really can't compare BB to anyone else. I'm not expecting Bill to put together another Dynasty as that's unrealistic. But I do want to see him put together a competitive team that will at least be in the conversation as a Super Bowl contender.

See the yr, sean payton was suspended. Brees didnt carry them to the SB either.

They are an overrated combination. They haven't done jack s*** for years and have had many playoff failures. Peyton is lucky management didn't move on from him before they stuck gold with their drafts starting in 2017.

 

[Tunescribe]

I never denied Belichick would be a first ballot hall a famer. His resume requires it. The asterisk on Belichick is 1) devious practices and 2) he hasn't won anything as a head coach without Brady. He still has time to change the latter but I'm betting against it. He's tried 8 times already and he's 0-8.

Your overall response is typical (you and that dope who called me spoiled)... anyone who doesn't unconditionally worship Belichick must be a fool. You can't take the interaction anywhere else because if you actually tried to refute something I said then you would fail.

Are any of these statements inaccurate?:

1. It was a revolving door at the skill positions (particularly WR) throughout Brady's time in NE.

2. Belichick drafted poorly at WR and brought in many has-been veteran receivers who did not work out.

3. Brady had 1 elite WR throughout his time in NE; Moss for 2 seasons only.
(The next best receiver was Welker but he worked mostly out of the slot receiver position which thrived in NE due to Brady and the scheme.)

4. Belichick treated Brady like a declining game manager after the 2017 season.

5. Belichick ****ed Brady around with his last two contracts at least.

6. Brady got fed up with 4 & 5 in particular (but also 1 & 2) so as a result he left the NE franchise (i.e. Belichick essentially forced Brady out of town).

7. Belichick made horribly bad decisions that contributed to at least 3 losses of the 2015 season (vs Eagles, Jets and Dolphins) which cost the team the 1 seed and very likely a trip to the Super Bowl.

8. Belichick benched Malcolm Butler for Super Bowl 52. NE lost the game. The former led to the latter.

Naive cherry-picked fanspeak emphasizing how little you know about how/why things work on a professional football team and with the Patriots specifically. BB is not perfect and certainly does not deserve unconditional "worship." Yes, BB has made mistakes. But your attempted black-and-white indictment nonsensically compares the roles of Brady (apple) to BB (orange) in a vacuum while ignoring due context of organization/culture/team building BB helmed over 21 years. It can be argued that BB "made" Brady just as much if not more than Brady "made" BB en route to both becoming GOAT. And by the way, that poster who called you spoiled is not a dope.

 

[crawhammer]

Naive cherry-picked fanspeak emphasizing how little you know about how/why things work on a professional football team and with the Patriots specifically. BB is not perfect and certainly does not deserve unconditional "worship." Yes, BB has made mistakes. But your attempted black-and-white indictment nonsensically compares the roles of Brady (apple) to BB (orange) in a vacuum while ignoring due context of organization/culture/team building BB helmed over 21 years. It can be argued that BB "made" Brady just as much if not more than Brady "made" BB en route to both becoming GOAT. And by the way, that poster who called you spoiled is not a dope.

Calling me spoiled because I'm of the opinion that Brady made Belichick and therefore Belichick is overrated is dumb. I can appreciate the unparalleled success of the franchise as much as anyone. I'm just assigning credit for the dynasty differently than you. I'm also of the belief that the dynasty would have continued longer if not for Belichick forcing Brady out of town and his bungling of the roster otherwise. In other words, Belichick hastened the demise of the dynasty. Just look at what Brady is still capable of with an organization that has faith in him and provides him with the supporting cast necessary to be legitimate Super Bowl contenders.

I'm not comparing Belichick with Brady either. Obviously Belichick can't be an NFL quarterback. I'm evaluating their respective contributions (good or bad) to the success (or failures) of the franchise. Mostly on-field but off-field as well. I'd say Brady had a lot to do with 'the culture' of the team. You don't think Brady set an amazing example with his work ethic and commitment to excellence? He obviously had the most impressive rise to prominence of any late round pick in the history of the league. That alone would be an inspiration to his teammates.

Naïve cherry-picked fanspeak? Is that what you call benching Malcolm Butler in the Super Bowl? I'm pretty sure "how things work on a professional football team" would include not benching your starting CB in the most important game of the season. I don't know, what does an elitist like you think about that?

Malcolm Butler's defensive snap percentages...

2015 Season = 99%
2016 Season = 97%
2017 Season = 98%
2015 Divisional Round = 100%
2015 Conference Championship = 100%
2016 Divisional Round = 100%
2016 Conference Championship = 97%
2016 Super Bowl = 100%
2017 Divisional Round = 100%
2017 Conference Championship = 100%
2017 Super Bowl = 0%

If being naïve means I can recognize the difference of 100% and 0% then I'm guilty. You tell me, since you're apparently in tune with Belichick's genius... if a CB plays essentially 100% of the defensive snaps for 3 straight years, is it sensical or nonsensical to have him play 0% of the defensive snaps in the most important game of the season?

Of course you won't answer my question. Rather you'll hide behind ad hominem argument or just plain gibberish.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Calling me spoiled because I'm of the opinion that Brady made Belichick and therefore Belichick is overrated is dumb.

It's not very satisfying in a long, long off-season, but the comparison is between Brady/Belichick/Krafts and their constantly changing cast of characters vs. other franchises.

The alignment of that grouping in New England has been the NE version of "triplets." While all these other fool teams were searching to hit the lottery and get "triplets" in the draft because that's what Dallas did, the Pats had QB with, it turned out, an outstanding will to win and work ethic that kept raising the bar on his upside in terms of pure stat performance (peaking in 07 but plateauing at an elite level).

But to your point about who made who? The idea that BB is "exposed" w/o Brady? Just no, no matter how dumb you think it is that people think that's what you're saying. All we know is that Brady went to a super-stacked team, where Trent Dilfer could pass for 30 TDs, and won a wildcard berth, and after two decades of dominance, BB went through his first Brady-less year cash-strapped, you know the COVID facts, and so forth, and yeah this year was, by Pats standards, less than stellar.

I do get it -- you just want BB knocked down to human scale, which gives you more room for it to matter what you say to do next (and to vent about his coaching sins.) Okay, free country, and here's hoping you should be roundly ridiculed b/c BB rears up and destroys all before him in a year or 2. Who knows. Right now I'm in "In Bill We Trust" mode, thinking maybe this year was always going to be pretty horrid.

Thanks for the conversation, though, because this way if Washington wins I still win... "Yeah too bad BB didn't get us a wild card, 1-and-done season..."

Likely I get to follow TFB for at least a couple games, since the Pats are out of it.

 

[Tunescribe]

Calling me spoiled because I'm of the opinion that Brady made Belichick and therefore Belichick is overrated is dumb. I can appreciate the unparalleled success of the franchise as much as anyone. I'm just assigning credit for the dynasty differently than you. I'm also of the belief that the dynasty would have continued longer if not for Belichick forcing Brady out of town and his bungling of the roster otherwise. In other words, Belichick hastened the demise of the dynasty. Just look at what Brady is still capable of with an organization that has faith in him and provides him with the supporting cast necessary to be legitimate Super Bowl contenders.

If being naïve means I can recognize the difference of 100% and 0% then I'm guilty. You tell me, since you're apparently in tune with Belichick's genius... if a CB plays essentially 100% of the defensive snaps for 3 straight years, is it sensical or nonsensical to have him play 0% of the defensive snaps in the most important game of the season?

Of course you won't answer my question. Rather you'll hide behind ad hominem argument or just plain gibberish.

Sure, I'll answer your question: BB had what he felt was a good reason for not playing Butler that, as a fan, I was not privy to. BB knows more about football and the inner workings of his team than I do. So while I might have questions or even doubts from afar about what happened, I defer to and trust in the judgment of a man who to that point had delivered five Super Bowl titles with the same team. On the other hand, you say "Belichick is the most overrated person in the history of professional sports." That's a pretty tall order to fill with supportive evidence, one I happen to feel is DOA. Righteously doubling down on ignorance is the fashionable thing nowadays, I get it. But you're shooting yourself in both feet with a bazooka.

 

[Kontradiction]

Sure, I'll answer your question: BB had what he felt was a good reason for not playing Butler that, as a fan, I was not privy to. BB knows more about football and the inner workings of his team than I do. So while I might have questions or even doubts from afar about what happened, I defer to and trust in the judgment of a man who to that point had delivered five Super Bowl titles with the same team. On the other hand, you say "Belichick is the most overrated person in the history of professional sports." That's a pretty tall order to fill with supportive evidence, one I happen to feel is DOA. Righteously doubling down on ignorance is the fashionable thing nowadays, I get it. But you're shooting yourself in both feet with a bazooka.

Always loved this line of reasoning. If Congress decides to declare war on Russia or China, I’ll just defer to them and assume it’s the right thing to do. After all, they have more information than I do. You see how ridiculous that sounds? He chose discipline over winning the Super Bowl that night. For a player that has never before or since had a reported off the field incident. He also plays for Vrabel now, who runs his team a lot like BB. I’d bet the house that, if he had a time machine, Bill would do that one differently. He destabilized a secondary on a defense that already couldn’t stop the run against a red hot offense. Brain dead move.

 

[Tunescribe]

Always loved this line of reasoning. If Congress decides to declare war on Russia or China, I’ll just defer to them and assume it’s the right thing to do. After all, they have more information than I do. You see how ridiculous that sounds? He chose discipline over winning the Super Bowl that night. For a player that has never before or since had a reported off the field incident. He also plays for Vrabel now, who runs his team a lot like BB. I’d bet the house that, if he had a time machine, Bill would do that one differently. He destabilized a secondary on a defense that already couldn’t stop the run against a red hot offense. Brain dead move.

Not ridiculous at all because we don't have the necessary information. The difference between you and I on this is you presume to "know" and comfortably sit in judgment. You might be right but from my perspective BB deserves the benefit of a doubt.

 

[sb1]

Not ridiculous at all because we don't have the necessary information. The difference between you and I on this is you presume to "know" and comfortably sit in judgment. You might be right but from my perspective BB deserves the benefit of a doubt.

I can’t really think of an acceptable reason to throw away a Super Bowl. That’s what happened.

 

[Tony2046]

Always loved this line of reasoning. If Congress decides to declare war on Russia or China, I’ll just defer to them and assume it’s the right thing to do. After all, they have more information than I do. You see how ridiculous that sounds? He chose discipline over winning the Super Bowl that night. For a player that has never before or since had a reported off the field incident. He also plays for Vrabel now, who runs his team a lot like BB. I’d bet the house that, if he had a time machine, Bill would do that one differently. He destabilized a secondary on a defense that already couldn’t stop the run against a red hot offense. Brain dead move.

Yeah but according to the crawspammer that makes BB "the most overrated coach in the history of sports" and "should have been fired after SB 52" because that was "tHe LaSt StRaW".

I mean I'm a little disappointed with crawkspanker. Only got a list of eight turrable regurgitated mediot talking point mistakes and was expecting more for such an overrated coach who's been here twenty years.

 

[Tunescribe]

I can’t really think of an acceptable reason to throw away a Super Bowl. That’s what happened.

I'll take it you're speaking as a fan, concluding from information available to fans.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Always loved this line of reasoning. If Congress decides to declare war on Russia or China, I’ll just defer to them and assume it’s the right thing to do. After all, they have more information than I do. You see how ridiculous that sounds?

While I understand your point, this is quite possibly the worst day evah to make your point regarding the relative wisdom of elected representatives and the great unwashed.

Only somewhat more seriously, it's not lost on me that the "establishment" of my youth, the pre-baby-boomers, actually thought that about the citizen's right to challenge the government's calls on war and peace. Back then, your example in which war was actually declared, in Congress of all places, would be relevant (since we did that in WWII.)

And actually, back then, in so many words, one reason given to trust the gubmit on matters of war and peace was "Hey, in Uncle Sam I trust, we're like 10-0!" (In so many words.)

 

[TheRainMaker]

We're back to Malcom Butler obvious blunder? Awesome!

Here's something to consider. Billy is known for treating everybody the same right? What if Tom was not "locked in" during the week, would Bill bench him too? Would Josh McDaniels take the gutless Matt Patricia route and say "there wasn't enough packages?" Yeah those are rhetorical questions.

Here's another rhetorical question. Would you rather take the field with your STARTING CB of 3 years, who is known for getting you big plays (especially the one that ended the 10 year Super Bowl winning drought as they were one yard away from another epic 3rd straight Super Bowl collapse) or take the field with the worst rated CB that year (Rowe), the worst safety of all time (Jordan Richards) and the other stiff Johnson Bademosi?

And why didn't Chandler Jones get benched against the Chiefs for getting high as kite, praying in a parking lot shirtless and released by the hospital days before the game?

 

[sb1]

Browner was spot on. Blamed Bill for this and rightfully so. It lost the Super Bowl. Said it divided the locker room pregame too. If you want to send Butler and the team a message you play him and win the championship and then before he gets to celebrate tell him to clean out his locker and send him packing. Not this.

I didn’t want to believe it at first but I’ve come around. I feel this might have broken something between Bill and Tom and led to his exit. This is why Brady’s all time performance in a championship game won’t get the recognition it should and that’s a shame.

Spygate and this. Bill’s two greatest screwups.

 

[BradytoMosstoGronk]

Browner was spot on. Blamed Bill for this and rightfully so. It lost the Super Bowl. Said it divided the locker room pregame too.

I didn’t want to believe it at first but I’ve come around. I feel this might have broken something between Bill and Tom and led to his exit. This is why Brady’s all time performance in a championship game won’t get the recognition it should.

Spygate and this. Bill’s two greatest screwups.

Whatever the reasoning, switching the game plan to benching your best corner and having that kind of defensive showing. Yeah, definitely the right play!

 

[sb1]

Whatever the reasoning, switching the game plan to benching your best corner and having that kind of defensive showing. Yeah, definitely the right play!

And then watching the inevitable happen... and keeping him benched.

 

[carmelo15]

Saints have one Lombardi trophy. One. Ten years ago. Pump the brakes bub.

And if they had Brady instead of brees we’d be the Saints

 

[carmelo15]

Brees is one of the best QBs in NFL history. Try again. Coaching matters.

lol what ya he is and Brady is the GOAT the difference is that big oh btw there coach is top 5 in the league this whole time so ya to coaching matters

 

[carmelo15]

Browner was spot on. Blamed Bill for this and rightfully so. It lost the Super Bowl. Said it divided the locker room pregame too. If you want to send Butler and the team a message you play him and win the championship and then before he gets to celebrate tell him to clean out his locker and send him packing. Not this.

I didn’t want to believe it at first but I’ve come around. I feel this might have broken something between Bill and Tom and led to his exit. This is why Brady’s all time performance in a championship game won’t get the recognition it should and that’s a shame.

Spygate and this. Bill’s two greatest screwups.

And people think we’ll be getting players without overpaying there in for a surprise. Nobody wants to come here and deal with that bull **** if you not playing with Brady

 

[Tony2046]

And if they had Brady instead of brees we’d be the Saints

Nope. Brady needed BB. BB needed Brady. It was an incredible twenty year ride.