Wtf happened with Brissett deal?

[LaterGator]

Going with value is one of the main reasons they've been on top the last 18 years.

With JE coming back does anyone really think they'll miss Cooks who was very good at disappearing at times last year? Ya he'll miss the first 4 games. He's clutch. when it counts. They can win 2 of them in their sleep. Hogan is darned clutch too if you're worried about DA.

Getting another 2nd rd pick and another 3rd round pick is pretty decent value.

 

[Ring 6]

He had 12 catches for 194 yards the entire season. Let’s call him what he was, a decent player added for depth purposes in case something happened to amendola or cooks. But theres no reason he can’t fetch 40-50 catches this year with both now gone and Edelman missing 4 games.

As I said he contributed. Brissett would have done nothing. Something is better than nothing. Many people on this board praise Dorsett profusely for his blocking last year.

 

[Ring 6]

Keep straw-manning this, the classic Andy tactic. I guess I’ll need to repeat for the seventh time to you directly that the Patriots have been unbelievable over the last four years and that is would be insane to criticize in any way the teams they’ve fielded, considering they have been far and away the best team in a parity obsessed league. You may have picked up on - possibly - that much of this was all possible because of the decisions they made and draft picks they got in the years proceeding that run, which set the table for that very fine future that became 2014-17. When I look at those very same future-setting moves from 2015-present, I suspect there are going to be a lot more issues and challenges, considering how few young players, if any, who can become cornerstones of an elite team.

How is quoting your own words a straw man?

 

[Oswlek]

I just think there’s a lot of things we’ve seen the last few years which previously did not seem to be problems, a very high number of draft busts (many due to injury), the other on the trade value they’ve generated for players.

Any random distribution will have rough patches, particularly when the difference between "normal" and "high" is 2-3 players over a three year stretch. And the trade value is largely manufactured as well: Brissett went for what backups ordinarily go for, so it really comes down to JG. I'll concede that one appears to be below market (less so if you view Brown as a wink. wink contingency, which some do), but that is a singular example with a host of unique circumstances around it.

The high number of "draft busts" seems to be entirely due to injuries. Feel free to peruse the draft history of the past few years and I think you'll be surprised at how much it differs from your description. They've actually been quite good, downright amazing in fact, at harvesting NFL talent from the late rounds. The problem is that they haven't been able to keep them all.

Humans have a tendency to read patterns into noise, and I think you are doing the same here.

BTW, you can be wrong about the cause and still be right about the effect. Even if this is just ordinary random distribution, the unfortunate clustering will have a negative impact on the next few years if NE isn't able to offset those losses elsewhere. Thankfully, the book isn't closed on some of the players (Rivers, Wynn, Michel) so it is possible that they become contributors who make this period look better in retrospect.

 

[HailHydra]

Do you want stars, or consistent winning seasons??

Play GM would you allow Brandon Cooks to have a salary cap hit of $14 million+ in 2019 or $16.8 million in 2020???

Not sure how many of these teams loaded with alleged stars are going to make it work in consideration of the salary cap??? Just imagine in 2020 we have about 120 million in cap space so the Pats can bring in a boat load of "stars" to appease the masses...

Not bring them in but draft and develop them. Then we have 5 years to play them at a minimal cost and be fortunate enough to have the opportunity to decide if we want to re-sign them or not.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

As I said he contributed. Brissett would have done nothing. Something is better than nothing. Many people on this board praise Dorsett profusely for his blocking last year.

Well yeah using that logic everyone on the 53 last year contributed. Even everyone’s whipping boy Jordan Richards contributed.

 

[Ring 6]

Well yeah using that logic everyone on the 53 last year contributed. Even everyone’s whipping boy Jordan Richards contributed.

So isn’t it a good trade to add a player who contributes to getting to a SB and played 1/3 of the offensive snaps in place of someone who would never have seen the field?

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

So isn’t it a good trade to add a player who contributes to getting to a SB and played 1/3 of the offensive snaps in place of someone who would never have seen the field?

It’s a decent trade for both teams depth wise. Indy needed a QB and we needed wr depth once Edelman went down. I’m not going to go as far as saying it was a great trade or that we won the trade until Dorsett takes a step forward which is entirely possible.

 

[Sciz]

Why has Volin not addressed the fact that the Colts GM has directly refuted this report? Does Volin stand by his source? Is he calling Chris Ballard a liar?

 

[Ring 6]

It’s a decent trade for both teams depth wise. Indy needed a QB and we needed wr depth once Edelman went down. I’m not going to go as far as saying it was a great trade or that we won the trade until Dorsett takes a step forward which is entirely possible.

I’m saying it was a good trade for us. We got something we could use for something we couldn’t.

Whether it is a good trade for us or not is unrelated to what Indy did with the guy they got.
The trade isn’t any better for us if they turned around and cut Brissett, we still got what we got for a player who would have never seen the field.

 

[Simpelton]

That all depends on what the Pats coaches thought of Brissett, of course. I get why you’re skeptical and how you see some parallels with the fans sticking up for Belichick in the Butler situation, but I’m not sure how you’re coming up with your prediction of Brissett being so successful in the future?

We’re talking about a QB who went 4-11 with a 58% completion rate. In 15 starts, he threw a grand total of 13 touchdown passes. Setting everything else aside, why are you so high on him? Just curious.

Because of context.

The first 3 games Brissett played in happened only a couple of months after he joined the team while he was still wet behind the ears, and the team won 2 of those games. The third of those games, Brissett was significantly injured and took the ball because there was no other quarterback in better shape than he was.

In Indianapolis Brissett was thrown to the wolves with only 1 year of NFL experience and a training camp with a completely different team. That team had no offensive line, a very limited running game, and a mediocre defense.

i happen to believe that managing to be an adequate-to-average quarterback with a terrible roster around you is pretty impressive. Especially for a guy who just finished his second season in the NFL and is only just now becoming anything resembling "seasoned" or "experienced."

Basically he handled being thrown to the sharks on a terrible roster like a veteran, and pretty much guaranteed that sooner or later he'll find another starting job in the NFL.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I’m saying it was a good trade for us. We got something we could use for something we couldn’t.

Whether it is a good trade for us or not is unrelated to what Indy did with the guy they got.
The trade isn’t any better for us if they turned around and cut Brissett, we still got what we got for a player who would have never seen the field.

By this reasoning, the Raiders made a good trade with Randy Moss in 2007. They got a fourth round pick and no longer wanted Moss, and it didn’t matter that Moss went on to be arguably the best receiver the league has ever seen over the next couple of years, and no one was that surprised. A whole a bunch of people have criticized Al Davis in accepting such low compensation for Moss when he could have gotten more if he’d fielded more offers and been more patient.

You have no actual scale here. “Something we could use for something we couldn’t”. Every trade in NFL history is a win for both sides in that context, since all values are completely relative and subjective.

 

[Ring 6]

Because of context.

The first 3 games Brissett played in happened only a couple of months after he joined the team while he was still wet behind the ears, and the team won 2 of those games. The third of those games, Brissett was significantly injured and took the ball because there was no other quarterback in better shape than he was.

In Indianapolis Brissett was thrown to the wolves with only 1 year of NFL experience and a training camp with a completely different team. That team had no offensive line, a very limited running game, and a mediocre defense.

i happen to believe that managing to be an adequate-to-average quarterback with a terrible roster around you is pretty impressive. Especially for a guy who just finished his second season in the NFL and is only just now becoming anything resembling "seasoned" or "experienced."

Basically he handled being thrown to the sharks on a terrible roster like a veteran, and pretty much guaranteed that sooner or later he'll find another starting job in the NFL.

A lot of your comments are sensible but he wasn’t an adequate-to-average QB, he was a very bad one. He was very inaccurare, he didn’t put points on the board, his offense was 30th in points and 31st in yards. 30th in passing yards, 30th in passing yards, 31st in passing tds.
I don’t see what he did that could be considered adequate or average.

 

[Simpelton]

I've said it before I'll say it again, the real winner of that trade wasn't the Colts or the Patriots, but Brissett himself. He did wonders for the perception of his own value in the league by having a full season as a starter under his belt, long before he would have ever gotten that opportunity for another team. He won out bigtime, and right now there's probably 6-7 NFL teams that would start Brissett if they had him.

 

[Ring 6]

By this reasoning, the Raiders made a good trade with Randy Moss in 2007. They got a fourth round pick and no longer wanted Moss, and it didn’t matter that Moss went on to be arguably the best receiver the league has ever seen over the next couple of years, and no one was that surprised. A whole a bunch of people have criticized Al Davis in accepting such low compensation for Moss when he could have gotten more if he’d fielded more offers and been more patient.

No they gave up a player who could have helped them.

You have no actual scale here. “Something we could use for something we couldn’t”. Every trade in NFL history is a win for both sides in that context, since all values are completely relative and subjective.

Were the patriots a better football team with Dorsett on the team playing 1/3 of the snaps or with Brissett holding a clipboard.
The scale is you got a player who contributed for player who would never have seen the field.
How is that a bad trade?

 

[Ring 6]

I've said it before I'll say it again, the real winner of that trade wasn't the Colts or the Patriots, but Brissett himself. He did wonders for the perception of his own value in the league by having a full season as a starter under his belt, long before he would have ever gotten that opportunity for another team. He won out bigtime, and right now there's probably 6-7 NFL teams that would start Brissett if they had him.

Hahaha. Which 6-7 years would start Brissett? There are literally none.

What do you actually think he did that improved the perception of him. He went out on the field and played poorly.

 

[Simpelton]

A lot of your comments are sensible but he wasn’t an adequate-to-average QB, he was a very bad one. He was very inaccurare, he didn’t put points on the board, his offense was 30th in points and 31st in yards. 30th in passing yards, 30th in passing yards, 31st in passing tds.
I don’t see what he did that could be considered adequate or average.

You're radically overstating the nature of the problem. Brissett's accuracy was spotty, but no worse than other starting QB who, with better teams around them, made the playoffs, such as Tyrod Taylor or Blake Bortles.

not putting points on the board came down to a lot of things, not least the habit of Chuck Pagano to take the ball out of his hands in the second half if he had a lead, and start playing not to lose.

I happen to think there aren't a lot of QB in the league that would have done much better with the terrible coaching, weak offensive line and aging, inefficient running game Brissett had to work with. The offense was basically Brissett and TY Hilton for most of the year, and while Hilton is a very good receiver, that's no way to score consistently.

Once again, you're assuming a neutral when it comes to roster and coaching, when that's simply not justified by even a casual assessment of the Colts' roster. Brissett was playing behind the 8 ball all year with what he had to work with.

In short, Jacoby Brissett was one of the better players on offense for the Colts, and the worse you think Brissett is, the more damning that is of the rest of the Colts roster. With what he had to work with, I maintain firmly that he did a good job.

 

[Ring 6]

You're radically overstating the nature of the problem. Brissett's accuracy was spotty, but no worse than other starting QB who, with better teams around them, made the playoffs, such as Tyrod Taylor or Blake Bortles.

It was absolutely worse. Brissett completed 58.8% of his passes and as teams got tape on him it kept getting worse. Down to 54% the last month and a half of the season. That is tebowesque.

not putting points on the board came down to a lot of things, not least the habit of Chuck Pagano to take the ball out of his hands in the second half if he had a lead, and start playing not to lose.

Wait. You are telling me his team was 30th in points and 4-11 because they had such commanding leads that they stopped trying to score? Please give me a list of these games.

I happen to think there aren't a lot of QB in the league that would have done much better with the terrible coaching, weak offensive line and aging, inefficient running game Brissett had to work with. The offense was basically Brissett and TY Hilton for most of the year, and while Hilton is a very good receiver, that's no way to score consistently.

How much worse could anyone have done?
Let’s try this.
We agree the colts offense, and their passing offense sucked miserably last year, correct?
So you are saying it’s everythng else but the QB and I am saying the offense revolves around the QB and a good QB overcomes having average or less talent around him (Hilton, Doyle and moncrief add up to average) to not suck.

Your point of view says Brady is only the GOAT because of others and a qb doesn’t have that much of an impact.

Once again, you're assuming a neutral when it comes to roster and coaching, when that's simply not justified by even a casual assessment of the Colts' roster. Brissett was playing behind the 8 ball all year with what he had to work with.

I’m assuming nothing, I am judging him in his performance.
You evidently agree his performance sucked because you are making excuses for it.
Is any player ever bad if you can just say it’s his teammates fault?

In short, Jacoby Brissett was one of the better players on offense for the Colts, and the worse you think Brissett is, the more damning that is of the rest of the Colts roster. With what he had to work with, I maintain firmly that he did a good job.

What did he do well?
You keep throwing out he was good evidently as code for you like him.
Please tell me what he did well. And you can’t say playing poorly is good because it’s all his teammates fault.
Let’s judge his play. What part of his play was good?

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

By this reasoning, the Raiders made a good trade with Randy Moss in 2007. They got a fourth round pick and no longer wanted Moss, and it didn’t matter that Moss went on to be arguably the best receiver the league has ever seen over the next couple of years, and no one was that surprised. A whole a bunch of people have criticized Al Davis in accepting such low compensation for Moss when he could have gotten more if he’d fielded more offers and been more patient.

You have no actual scale here. “Something we could use for something we couldn’t”. Every trade in NFL history is a win for both sides in that context, since all values are completely relative and subjective.

Value at the time of a trade is what counts, it doesn't matter what happens afterwards.

Yes, the Moss trade worked out beautifully for us but it doesn't mean the Raiders "lost." It means it worked out more for us. Had the Raiders traded Moss for a swap of 7th round picks, yes, people can rightfully debate what they got in return. Also, how is it you know the Pats were the one team Davis talked to and that he fielded no other offers?

If any team in the league right now offered a draft pick for Jordan Richards, even a 2021 conditional 7th round pick, I doubt a single one of us fans would turn it down. What if Richards goes to another team, it finally starts to click, and he turns into a pro bowler? Should we then question the Pats for not getting enough for Jordan Richards? Or go with the fact that as of this moment, he has little to no trade value?

 

[Ring 6]

Value at the time of a trade is what counts, it doesn't matter what happens afterwards.

Yes, the Moss trade worked out beautifully for us but it doesn't mean the Raiders "lost." It means it worked out more for us. Had the Raiders traded Moss for a swap of 7th round picks, yes, people can rightfully debate what they got in return. Also, how is it you know the Pats were the one team Davis talked to and that he fielded no other offers?

If any team in the league right now offered a draft pick for Jordan Richards, even a 2021 conditional 7th round pick, I doubt a single one of us fans would turn it down. What if Richards goes to another team, it finally starts to click, and he turns into a pro bowler? Should we then question the Pats for not getting enough for Jordan Richards? Or go with the fact that as of this moment, he has little to no trade value?

But in this context if we traded Richards to Indy who was a bad defense last year, and Richards starts all 16 games plays poorly, the colts again have a bad defense and go 4-12 the argument would be it was a terrible trade because we face them a starter and he played great it’s just that it looked sucky because of the team around him.