Do Patriot fans have less loyalty to Tom Brady than Browns fans did to Bernie Kosar

[bormio]

The day will come for Brady.
There is some % chance it will be this year.
There is some % chance it will be next year, in 3,4,5 etc and obviously that number increases every year.
The purpose of keeping garoppolo is in the event this is the year.
If this isn't the year and you could keep garoppolo longer you would (but you cannot because of the cost and because he wants to play).

In other words you keep garoppolo until you cant but when the day comes that you can't if Brady is still Brady you cut garoppolo lose.
There is no other sensible way.

I will add that I would bet a big sum of money that from today forward Tom Brady wins more SBs (as starting QB because you can't count Jimmy winning as a backup) than garoppolo.

I bet TB12 wins the same # or more SBs STARTING NOW than JG wins as a starter in his whole career.

 

[Ring 6]

I bet TB12 wins the same # or more SBs STARTING NOW than JG wins as a starter in his whole career.

Yeah I said more because I think it won't be zero to zero

 

[bormio]

Yeah I said more because I think it won't be zero to zero

I give the guy a shot to win one, may well not be in NE. But the chances he is going to be a multiple SB winner are really long. The chance that we would horribly regret missing out on JG's career by keeping Brady is really quite small.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

That's a lot of certainty for a position that has been played by real cyphers on some SB-winning teams. It's also a lot of certainty that JG's nothing special. While that's the likelihood (by the definition of special,) we can knock out "sucks" as the most likely outcome to the extent that pre-injury performance is a predictor. Of course, the injury itself should be factored in as a possible indicator of poorer play going forward.

I like Brady and this roster in '17. Tom Brady wins about 1 out of every 3 super bowls played so far. Not 1 out of every 3 he plays in, 1 out of every three that are played in the NFL during his career as a starter. He appears in about 1 out of every 2 super bowls. That is worth considering... but what's the calculus 1 more year, and 2 more years, and 3 more years down the road?

The rarity of super bowl wins and super bowl appearances can be easily illustrated by a casual study of pre-Brady Patriots history. However, this is also pre-Belichick Patriots history... yet another conundrum.

I'm very happy to be commenting on this on a bulletin board rather than scratching my head about it in the bowels of Foxborough.

 

[ivanvamp]

That is totally incorrect. Read my posts, I back up every opinion I give. The fact that you dismiss or ignore the way I back it up doesn't mean it isn't there.



I have no clue what you are referring to but if I recall the butler thread was about what was going to happen. And the butler thread was about butler being a "placeholder" in the cooks deal. I said he wasn't and I was right.

not sure what citations of sources you are talking about but it does appear your sources were wrong.



It is an observation. Observations tend to be general statements. If you want to do a statistical analysis feel free.



That is a lie. You never said that.


You never said that either, or please show me where you asked for specific examples.
By the way they are all over the board.
"Better one year early than one year late"
"I root for the laundry"
"I was a patriots fan before Brady and will be after Brady"
"Who cares about loyalty"
And on and on. But you knew that.


Yeah just did. But you knew what I was referring to and chose to play dumb.

So in post #262 (Do Patriot fans have less loyalty to Tom Brady than Browns fans did to Bernie Kosar), I said:

"I haven't seen ANYBODY that's a Patriots fan here saying anything negative about Brady. Show me where people here have actually shown "no appreciation" (your words) for Brady, and "devaluing" (your word again) him."

So yes, I asked you to give me specific examples. Clearly.

How are these statements...

"Better one year early than one year late"
"I root for the laundry"
"I was a patriots fan before Brady and will be after Brady"
"Who cares about loyalty"

...showing no appreciation for Brady?

You were a Patriots fan before Brady and presumably you will be after Brady. You presumably root for the laundry - that is, you'd root for the Patriots with JG at quarterback over another team with Brady at the helm, because you're a Patriots fan first and foremost (I'd imagine anyway), as are the vast majority of Patriots fans who LOVE Tom Brady.

You're seeing things that aren't there, Andy. Why, I have no idea.

As for the Butler thread....yeah, your memory is failing you significantly, if all you recall is that the thread was about what was going to happen to Butler. You and I had a lengthy and contentious argument over whether teams can negotiate to trade an RFA. You simply claimed they couldn't, because BB once said something like that back in 2009. And I gave you example after example, with citations from numerous sources, where not only has it happened around the NFL, but that the Patriots and BB themselves did it.

I'm not surprised you don't remember this though. It was not one of your better moments.

 

[Ring 6]

It is an observation. Observations tend to be general statements. If you want to do a statistical analysis feel free.



That is a lie. You never said that.


You never said that either, or please show me where you asked for specific examples.
By the way they are all over the board.
"Better one year early than one year late"
"I root for the laundry"
"I was a patriots fan before Brady and will be after Brady"
"Who cares about loyalty"
And on and on. But you knew that.


Yeah just did. But you knew what I was referring to and chose to play dumb.

So in post #262 (Do Patriot fans have less loyalty to Tom Brady than Browns fans did to Bernie Kosar), I said:

"I haven't seen ANYBODY that's a Patriots fan here saying anything negative about Brady. Show me where people here have actually shown "no appreciation" (your words) for Brady, and "devaluing" (your word again) him."

So yes, I asked you to give me specific examples. Clearly.

How are these statements...

"Better one year early than one year late"
"I root for the laundry"
"I was a patriots fan before Brady and will be after Brady"
"Who cares about loyalty"

...showing no appreciation for Brady?

You were a Patriots fan before Brady and presumably you will be after Brady. You presumably root for the laundry - that is, you'd root for the Patriots with JG at quarterback over another team with Brady at the helm, because you're a Patriots fan first and foremost (I'd imagine anyway), as are the vast majority of Patriots fans who LOVE Tom Brady.

You're seeing things that aren't there, Andy. Why, I have no idea.

As for the Butler thread....yeah, your memory is failing you significantly, if all you recall is that the thread was about what was going to happen to Butler. You and I had a lengthy and contentious argument over whether teams can negotiate to trade an RFA. You simply claimed they couldn't, because BB once said something like that back in 2009. And I gave you example after example, with citations from numerous sources, where not only has it happened around the NFL, but that the Patriots and BB themselves did it.

I'm not surprised you don't remember this though. It was not one of your better moments.[/QUOTE]
How did that turn out? Did anime negotiate to trade the RFA?
No. why because you can't, which bill belichick and mike Lombardi explained to us themselves.
Yet you still beat that drum.

It's not my fault you were wrong.

 

[ivanvamp]

So in post #262 (Do Patriot fans have less loyalty to Tom Brady than Browns fans did to Bernie Kosar), I said:

"I haven't seen ANYBODY that's a Patriots fan here saying anything negative about Brady. Show me where people here have actually shown "no appreciation" (your words) for Brady, and "devaluing" (your word again) him."

So yes, I asked you to give me specific examples. Clearly.

How are these statements...

"Better one year early than one year late"
"I root for the laundry"
"I was a patriots fan before Brady and will be after Brady"
"Who cares about loyalty"

...showing no appreciation for Brady?

You were a Patriots fan before Brady and presumably you will be after Brady. You presumably root for the laundry - that is, you'd root for the Patriots with JG at quarterback over another team with Brady at the helm, because you're a Patriots fan first and foremost (I'd imagine anyway), as are the vast majority of Patriots fans who LOVE Tom Brady.

You're seeing things that aren't there, Andy. Why, I have no idea.

As for the Butler thread....yeah, your memory is failing you significantly, if all you recall is that the thread was about what was going to happen to Butler. You and I had a lengthy and contentious argument over whether teams can negotiate to trade an RFA. You simply claimed they couldn't, because BB once said something like that back in 2009. And I gave you example after example, with citations from numerous sources, where not only has it happened around the NFL, but that the Patriots and BB themselves did it.

I'm not surprised you don't remember this though. It was not one of your better moments.

How did that turn out? Did anime negotiate to trade the RFA?
No. why because you can't, which bill belichick and mike Lombardi explained to us themselves.
Yet you still beat that drum.[/QUOTE]

Andy, we're not going to go through all that again. I'd be happy to show you, again, where the Patriots actually did this very thing that you claim they can't do, but I think people would be very unhappy with us rehashing it. Nowhere in that thread did I argue that the Patriots WERE negotiating with respect to Butler...just that it's happened before many times over.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, we're not going to go through all that again. I'd be happy to show you, again, where the Patriots actually did this very thing that you claim they can't do, but I think people would be very unhappy with us rehashing it. Nowhere in that thread did I argue that the Patriots WERE negotiating with respect to Butler...just that it's happened before many times over.

They did not. You know that.
Since you refuse to not respond to my posts as I asked and I find any discussion with you to be disingenuous and pointless I will put you in ignore. I'm sure this will mean countless posts by you about me due to your obsession, since I will not be able to read and respond. Have fun with it.[/QUOTE]

 

[Raymond]

I am become Midgar death. The destroyer of worlds.

Andy Johnson

 

[BradyFTW!]

I've pretty much accepted that I hate the NFL as a league, and I'm uneasy with football as a sport given what we've learned over the last decade. The only reason I'm still watching is because I'm so invested in the Brady/Belichick Patriots. But when they're gone, I'm gone too. I'm not particularly interested in what life after Brady/Belichick looks like for the Pats.

 

[sb1]

Sure, but let's not act as if he didn't look good in the two starts that he had.

502 yards in less than 6 quarters. 68.3 completion percentage. Went on the road raw to start the season and came back from ARZ with a 24/33 for 264 performance. Never turned the ball over once. Looked very capable of running our system.

He looked good (even if a few notches below "great" despite what some are saying) - but the tiny sample size, the fact he played a bottom 5 pass defense in that sample size, the fact he was an unknown to the league, the fact he had the reins on him, and the fact he takes quite a few hits and sacks and thus failed to finish the 4 games are all reasons to be extremely cautious before judging that the Pats have their long term answer.

I do not believe right now he is. Could be wrong. Will be happy to be wrong actually.

 

[lurker1965]

Saying the browns fans had more loyalty to their mediocre QB than pats fans have to the GOAT is not saying anything about emulating them.
It's not saying anything about the decision made by BB not fans.
It's saying those fans appreciated him and these fans, many of them, are throwing Brady under the bus.

I believe Tom Brady deserves more respect and appreciation from his fan base than Bernie Kosar. Apparently you do not.

Wrong.
If you can't see your dichotomy is "Browns fans good: Patriot fans bad" I can't help you.

 

[1960Pats]

Actually I'd say JG and these rookies are all in the same boat... nobody has any definitive clue how good they really are.

The difference is JG is older and he is a FA in 2018. And the Pats are also not known for developing top QB talent (Mallett, O'Connell and company say hi)

That's why I really believe despite these anonymous reports to the contrary nobody made a worthwhile offer for him that trumps the need for the Pats to have a good QB insurance policy in 2017... if they did BB would have jumped all over it.

JG is not a rookie. He has a body of NYFL work.

JG is talented. The other backup QB's haven't been.

Adam Schefter said it from the beginning. The Pats were keeping him.

 

[Ring 6]

Wrong.
If you can't see your dichotomy is "Browns fans good: Patriot fans bad" I can't help you.

Of course that isn't what I said.
Browns fans had more loyalty to Kosar than patriots fans are showing Brady right now.

 

[scout]

The real essence here is that people are forgetting, dismissing, ignoring or hiding from who Tom Brady is and how irreplaceable he truly is.

Here are some facts.
In 15 seasons Brady has
25 post season wins 7 conf titles 5 SB titles.
Brady is far and away the most important piece of that success and it's arguable none of it could have happened with out him.
So if we are talking about 3 more years given the state of the team everyone can choose to decide what Brady is likely to produce.

So who do we want to expect JAG to be like? Let's make some comparisons.

Brady 15 yr. 25 po wins 7 cc 5 champ
Rodgers 9 9 1 1
Brees. 15 6 1 1
(Yes tom Brady has more conf champ wins than brees has total playoff wins.)
Roethlisberger 13 13 3 2
( next biggest winner who has won less than half as much.)
Ryan. 9 3 1 0
Yes Tom Brady win as many po games this season as Ryan has in his 9 year career. Are we expecting JAG to be better than Ryan?
Rivers. 11 4 0 0
Are we expecting JAG to be beyeer than rivers? Brady has more rings than rivers has playoff wins.

Eli. 13 8 2 2
SINCE Eli won his last SB when Brady was 33 Brady has won more playoff games and as many SBs as manning has won in his 13 year career.

Newton 6 3 1 0
Brady did win as many playof games and more SBs at age 39 than newton in his 6 year career.

Wilson. 5 8 2 1
With what many see as the best team in the NFL surrounding him in his first 5 years he is tracking behind Brady in every area, and his team is going on the wrong direction

Hell let's look at hall of famers.
Brady 15 25 7 5
Montana 13 16 4 4
Marino 16 8 1 0
(Edit just noticed Brady has won more playoff games, conf champs and SB champs than Joe Montana and Dan Marino COMBINED)

Sure JAG ought to be better than Marino. Marino won .5 playoff games per season. Brady 1.7

Elway. 16 14 5 2
Fouts. 15 3 0 0
Kelly. 11 9 4 0
Young. 14 8 1 1
Airman. 12 11 3 3
Bradshaw. 14 14 4 4

Others
Manning 17 14 3 2
Favre. 19 13 2 1


This is the issue. People simply do not recognize how much better Brady has been than anyone else and think dumping him early for anyone is reasonable.

Not sure what your point is? If the question is whether to switch QB's, then the past isn't a consideration, other then the last game/season.

 

[Ring 6]

Not sure what your point is? If the question is whether to switch QB's, then the past isn't a consideration, other then the last game/season.

What?
Being the GOAT is meaningless to you?
I guess it's a good thing no one asked you after the 2014 KC game since Brady is only as good as his last game.

 

[1960Pats]

Browns fans had more loyalty to Kosar than patriots fans are showing Brady right now.

Not a fair comparison. Belichick didn't replace Brady with Garoppolo?

 

[Ring 6]

Not a fair comparison. Belichick didn't replace Brady with Garoppolo?

The comparison is that browns fans were aghast when an over the hill QB who was average to begin with was benched because he was their hero, and many patriot fans are saying things about Brady such as better a year too soon than a year too late, or that it is better to dump Brady than lose garropolo.

 

[1960Pats]

The comparison is that browns fans were aghast when an over the hill QB who was average to begin with was benched because he was their hero, and many patriot fans are saying things about Brady such as better a year too soon than a year too late, or that it is better to dump Brady than lose garropolo.

I haven't seen any fans, let alone many, say that Brady should be replaced or dumped.

If I were Garoppolo I wouldn't stay here, if only because half of our fans can't spell his name correctly.

 

[Guts]

Some of you just need to live in the moment and stop looking for any little excuse to move from TB12. Last memory the whole NFL world has is him leading the team to a fairy tale comeback. The guy is going to go down as an immortal in the sports world can't we just enjoy the last few years he has left? Because as of now he is the GOAT and nobody compares to his ability, mental toughness, and his will to win within current QBs or past. He's the MJ of the football world and part of our team. Let him go out on his terms.