Butler visiting Saints

[XLIX]

This is so stupid, Patriots can just keep Butler and franchise him next year and it would effectively be like a 2 year $20M deal. That's fine.

They may indeed franchise him or maybe they won't, but I see this same logic used for Jimmy G and it doesn't work.

People need to drop the notion that the Patriots are going to decide whether or not to franchise a player based on what that player made last year and say "oh well hey, sure we're franchising Butler for $16 million but if we include last year where he earned $4 million it averages out to only $10 million per year, so let's do it...."

Come 2018, if the Patriots are deciding whether or not to franchise Butler, they will look at what it will cost them going forward. His 2017 will be completely irrelevant to that decision.

 

[XLIX]

I'm just having "fun" with Goodell's standards. After all, the NFL had no credible evidence that football deflation occurred, and yet here we are....

Well, you do have a good point that they could jus completely make crap up out of think air, so I concede the point....

 

[PatriotsPimp136]

This makes me sick. Patriots literally have ALL the leverage in this situation. They have all the leverage vs the Saints because they can't sign Butler to an offer sheet or else they'd have to give up the #11 overall pick. They have all the leverage vs Butler because he's a 1st round RFA and have him under control this year for a cheap $4M. They also have the franchise tag in their back pocket for him next year. Butler also can't really threaten to hold out on the Patriots because they can just say, "go ahead Malcom, our stacked team will win 13+ games with or without your ass and we'll collect your money until you HAVE to report week 10 and play hard for us on our SB stretch run. That's all we care about anyway. And we'll say the same thing to you next year when we franchise you".

This must be another situation where Belichick just randomly got sick of a guy and now wants to get rid of him for whatever like Easely/Collins.

It's probably that and he had a secret wink deal with payton. I like cooks and he will make our offense great but i rather roll the dice with butler. Butler sitting wouldn't help his cause in cashing in next year. We have seen disgruntled players play well before a contract. A secondary on paper that would be ridiculously good.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Show me anything on the CBA that prohibits this.

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

Article 9 section 3 h
<<<<
(h) No Consideration Between Clubs. There may be no consideration of any kind given by one Club to another Club in exchange for a Club’s decision to exercise or not to exercise its Right of First Refusal, or in exchange for a Club’s decision to submit or not to submit an Offer Sheet to a Restricted Free Agent or to make or not to make an offer to enter into a Player Contract with a Restricted Free Agent. Nothing in 41 this Subsection shall preclude a Prior Club from entering into a Player Contract with a player subject to a Tender, and subsequently trading that player under that Player Contract to another Club, provided that the player and the NFLPA must approve in advance any such trade that takes place during the Signing Period. If a Club exercises its Right of First Refusal and matches an Offer Sheet, that Club may not trade that player to the Club that submitted the Offer Sheet for at least one calendar year, unless the player consents to such trade<<<<<
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Looks like it was designed to prevent wink wink deals...

 

[Mack Herron]

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

Article 9 section 3 h
<<<<
(h) No Consideration Between Clubs. There may be no consideration of any kind given by one Club to another Club in exchange for a Club’s decision to exercise or not to exercise its Right of First Refusal, or in exchange for a Club’s decision to submit or not to submit an Offer Sheet to a Restricted Free Agent or to make or not to make an offer to enter into a Player Contract with a Restricted Free Agent. Nothing in 41 this Subsection shall preclude a Prior Club from entering into a Player Contract with a player subject to a Tender, and subsequently trading that player under that Player Contract to another Club, provided that the player and the NFLPA must approve in advance any such trade that takes place during the Signing Period. If a Club exercises its Right of First Refusal and matches an Offer Sheet, that Club may not trade that player to the Club that submitted the Offer Sheet for at least one calendar year, unless the player consents to such trade<<<<<
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Looks like it was designed to prevent wink wink deals...

I responded to this in an interesting exchange above.

 

[supafly]

People need to drop the notion that the Patriots are going to decide whether or not to franchise a player based on what that player made last year and say "oh well hey, sure we're franchising Butler for $16 million but if we include last year where he earned $4 million it averages out to only $10 million per year, so let's do it...."

Otherwise known as the "reverse Welker."

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

..........
2. or in exchange for a Club’s decision to sub-mit or not to submit an Offer Sheet to a Restricted Free Agent or to make or not to make an offer to enter into a Player Contract with a Restricted Free Agent.
There is no consideration being offered for NO not to submit an offer. We would welcome it. So I do not see a violation here either. And those are the only conditions I can see that are stipulated by the rule.
...................

You could argue ( not that I am) that as a RFA, Butler can negotiate with the Patriots or get an offer sheet from another team. Once the offer sheet is presented, Pats can match or reject and get pick #11 if that team is New Orleans...

If the offer sheet hasn't been presented and his tender is not signed, for the two teams to be discussing a trade in lieu of the tender process for a player NOT under contract would seem to be the consideration ( bargained for exchange)prohibited here.
I want to avoid any problems....
Just my $0.02,

 

[Sfpat]

It's probably that and he had a secret wink deal with payton. I like cooks and he will make our offense great but i rather roll the dice with butler. Butler sitting wouldn't help his cause in cashing in next year. We have seen disgruntled players play well before a contract. A secondary on paper that would be ridiculously good.

Despite what everyone's saying, I doubt BB has a "wink wink" deal with SP. BB is a smart guy and I don't believe he would put himself into a position where he loses leverage to anyone over anything. BB has demonstrated a willingness to take less than value "for the best interest of the team" but I believe the Cooks deal is stand alone and whatever happens with Butler will be a stand alone deal. Last thing a smart person does in any negotiation or poker is concede strength too soon, or show one's cards too soon. And BB is a smart guy

 

[supafly]

You could argue ( not that I am) that as a RFA, Butler can negotiate with the Patriots or get an offer sheet from another team. Once the offer sheet is presented, Pats can match or reject and get pick #11 if that team is New Orleans...

If the offer sheet hasn't been presented and his tender is not signed, for the two teams to be discussing a trade in lieu of the tender process for a player NOT under contract would seem to be the consideration ( bargained for exchange)prohibited here.
I want to avoid any problems....
Just my $0.02,

We have a better shot at having Randy Moss back in uniform that we do getting N.Orleans' #11 pick.

I'm holding out hope that we can still recoup the #32 if the Saints decide to become the first team in 14 yrs to offer an offer sheet to a first round tender, but even that may not be realistic. I think there's a much better chance that Butler signs his RFA tender and is traded.

 

[supafly]

Hope BB slides in a contract in there as well.

Thought he was visiting the Saints?

Edit: Nevermind. The tweet is from 10 days ago.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

r

We have a better shot at having Randy Moss back in uniform that we do getting N.Orleans' #11 pick.

I'm holding out hope that we can still recoup the #32 if the Saints decide to become the first team in 14 yrs to offer an offer sheet to a first round tender, but even that may not be realistic.

Agreed so they have to find an alternative, a happy medium that gets the Patriots some draft picks, the Saints get Butler and Butler gets his big contract without drawing scrutiny from the a**holes at 345 Park Ave. I don't know what it is but I know the Pats have to cross every't' and dot every 'i'.

 

[Sfpat]

One difference between Welker and Butler cases. In Welker case, Pats sweetened the pot (adding extra draft picks) to get the player they wanted. In Butler's case, Saints are asking for a discount to get the player they want. Hope BB holds out, he placed a 1st round tender on him for a reason.

 

[zipster9]

Sigh, I will miss Butler. He was our shutdown corner..

 

[supafly]

One difference between Welker and Butler cases. In Welker case, Pats sweetened the pot (adding extra draft picks) to get the player they wanted. In Butler's case, Saints are asking for a discount to get the player they want. Hope BB holds out.

Sure, but Welker wasn't tendered with a first round designation.

You can't really blame Sean Payton for not wanting to sign him to an official offer sheet, since they'd have to give up a first round pick. They'd be the first team to do it since 2003. He'd obviously much rather trade for him.

I think the compensation would be comparable to what we gave up for Welker, in the sense that it would be a second + an additional pick.

 

[luuked]

Florio is saying you aren't allowed to sign a RFA with a tender with the intention to trade them...It'd be pretty obvious at this point but NFL rules are so arbitrarily enforced..

If they whistle the Browns/Osweiler thing through there is no way they will make a strink about this. Yes, I know it's a trade between the two franchises ****ed most by NFL discipline but still don't see them making a fuss about it.

 

[luuked]

One difference between Welker and Butler cases. In Welker case, Pats sweetened the pot (adding extra draft picks) to get the player they wanted. In Butler's case, Saints are asking for a discount to get the player they want. Hope BB holds out, he placed a 1st round tender on him for a reason.

If something was agreed upon BB will not hold out. The only way Butler stays in NE is if he can't agree on contract terms with the Saints and plays out his final year for 4m. But even then he might get traded after he signs the tender to whoever bids the most for him.

The moment they pulled the trigger on Gilmore is the moment Butler was not in the long term plans of the franchise anymore. Unless he suddenly agrees to a very, very favorable deal for the Patriots he is gone.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'm looking at it from a higher level than you are. BB already played this out and Malcolm is playing catch up.

I agree with everything you said functionally of the RFA process.

We disagree on the practical reality of the process.

I don't think you understand what signing the tender does.

Right now, NE cannot stop him from negotiating with other teams. They also cannot stop him from signing a deal with other teams. If such a deal is signed, NE has 2 options: Match it or let him go for a #1.

If he signs the tender, he gives NE complete control over himself. They don't have to negotiate with any team they don' want to. They don't have to trade him if they don't want to. They get complete, 100% control of a guy with 1 year, $4 million left on his deal.
At this point of the process, the tender does absolutely nothing to "protect the player" if Butler signs it
It may be irrelevant to BB, but it is NOT irrelevant to Butler. If Butler signs it, his activities with other teams is 100% frozen and EVERYTHING goes through the Patriots' front office.

BB has control over him with or without him signing the tender.

By tendering him he is perfectly comfortable with getting a #1 for Malcolm. He is also comfortable if he doesn't sign it.

He saw this situation developing weeks if not months ago.

If Payton wants Malcolm, and is willing to pay the #11 for him, he doesn't have to say one word to Belichick. All he has to do is sign Butler and force Belichick's hand.

Malcolm and his agent aren't forcing BBs hand on anything.

Look at the totality of the situation. Do you think BB hasn't thought how these scenarios would play out. Do you really think there are teams out there that will give up a mid/high 1st rd draft choice for Butler?

BB has already check-mated Malcolm and his agent.

Face it: Signing the tender at this point in the process would be a stupid move for Butler. He loses a ton and gains nothing. Your only reply is he should sign the tender then violate rules against tampering by continuing to talk to other teams, which makes zero sense whatsoever.

Malcolm is moving his pawns when BB has already surrounded the king with his queen and several other key pieces.

 

[Clonamery]

I'm looking at it from a higher level than you are. BB already played this out and Malcolm is playing catch up.

I agree with everything you said functionally of the RFA process.

We disagree on the practical reality of the process.



BB has control over him with or without him signing the tender.

By tendering him he is perfectly comfortable with getting a #1 for Malcolm. He is also comfortable if he doesn't sign it.

He saw this situation developing weeks if not months ago.



Malcolm and his agent aren't forcing BBs hand on anything.

Look at the totality of the situation. Do you think BB hasn't thought how these scenarios would play out. Do you really think there are teams out there that will give up a mid/high 1st rd draft choice for Butler?

BB has already check-mated Malcolm and his agent.



Malcolm is moving his pawns when BB has already surrounded the king with his queen and several other key pieces.

When it comes to this type of management foresight with BB it becomes a "duh" moment. Of course, he would have an alternative course of action.

It really is the whole cheskers thing...

 

[RobertWeathers]

When it comes to this type of management foresight with BB it becomes a "duh" moment. Of course, he would have an alternative course of action.

It really is the whole cheskers thing...

I wouldn't be shocked to learn BB started talking to Payton about a Cooks/Malcolm deal months ago when BB had him over in Nantucket.

 

[XLIX]

BB has control over him with or without him signing the tender.

BB has more control over Butler if Butler has signed the tender than if he hasn't. Right now, Butler is perfectly free to talk to anyone and receive an offer sheet from anyone. Word has come down the Texans are potentially interested.

If Butler signs the tender, BB can slam the door shut on any team he wants for any reason he wants. Butler is completely and totally at BB's mercy and gives up the one single piece of leverage he has.

Malcolm and his agent aren't forcing BBs hand on anything.

If they get an offer sheet, they are.

Look at the totality of the situation. Do you think BB hasn't thought how these scenarios would play out. Do you really think there are teams out there that will give up a mid/high 1st rd draft choice for Butler?

Well a lot of people think the Saints are willing to give up #32. Not too far of a stretch to say some other team may give up a pick in the 20's.

Belichick is a smart guy, but he's not God. It only takes one team to step up and make an offer. I don't think all 31 teams are informing Belichick in advance regarding their plans for RFA's.

BB has already check-mated Malcolm and his agent.

Gimme a break. Butler played out his first deal, and is simply dealing with the restraints of being an RFA, as per the rules of the CBA regarding players with 3 accrued years. Belichick hasn't "check-mated" him in any way. They are each just playing the hands they've been dealt.

Malcolm would be stupid to sign the tender at this point in time. Nothing you say changes that. He risks nothing by waiting and loses a lot by signing.