AFC East: Best Five Players Per Team

[upstater1]

I would have to put Fryer down as one of the biggest disappointments in Patriot history, considering he was drafted #1. How anyone could include him in the same sentence as Morgan is shocking.
Speaking of disappointments, I might switch Miami's Taylor with former Patriot LB Nick Buoniconti.

+1

I'd definitely put Morgan in the top 5.

No way on Fryar. Morgan was better than Coates as well.

Haynes is hard. Not enough of a career with the Patriots, IMO.

The top 4 are clear.

Russ Francis, Ben Coates, Leon Gray, Julius Adams, Sam Cunningham, Ty Law, Willie McGinest, all of these guys would have to be in the mix. Haynes is better than all the guys I just listed but did he play with the Patriots long enough at a high level?

Many people believe Stanley Morgan should be in the NFL Hall of Fame. if you look at his stats in the era he played, they are phenomenal. On stats alone, he deserves to be in. His YPC is amazing.

 

[upstater1]

I'd think it far more likely that a 2009 Hannah would carry 30-40 lbs more on his his 6'3" frame thanks to modern training techniques, and continue to dominate.

I really think what happened is that steroids allowed players from the earlier era to keep their weight down and build their strength. So it wasn't as important to have a lot of mass. Once they started testing for roids, that's when the weight of OLs started to balloon.

 

[Amnorix]

Russ Francis, Ben Coates, Leon Gray, Julius Adams, Sam Cunningham, Ty Law, Willie McGinest, all of these guys would have to be in the mix. Haynes is better than all the guys I just listed but did he play with the Patriots long enough at a high level?

It's a fair question.

For the record, he played for the Pats for 7 years then moved ont o the Raiders for another 7, so he had precisely half his career with us.

He had 9 Pro Bowls in his career, of which 6 were with us and 3 with the Raiders.

He was named rookie of the year while with us, mostly for his fantastic punt returns and EIGHT interceptions.

He is a member of the 75th NFL Anniversary all time team, and his number, 40, is retired by the Patriots.

I think it's fair to say that his best years were with us, rather than with the Raiders, and that 7 years is enough time to earn a spot on our all-time top 5.

If it helps any, Brady has been our starting QB for precisely 7 years, since last year was lost.

 

[Peekaboo]

OTAs and stuff are very exciting to be sure, but we're definitely in the midst of the boringest time of the offseason, so I figured I'd shamelessly rip off this concept from another football board and bring it over here.

In no particular order

Patriots

Tom Brady
John Hannah
Andre Tippett
Mike Haynes
Stanley Morgan

**note, I could have, but didn't, include someone like a Curtis Martin or Randy Moss, but my feeling is that they aren't primarily identified with the Patriots, given that they spent the majority of their careers elsewhere.


Dolphins

Dan Marino
Jason Taylor
Larry Csonka
Dwight Stephenson
Larry Little


Bills

Bruce Smith
Jim Kelly
Thurman Thomas
OJ Simpson (may he rot in hell)
James Lofton


Jets


Joe Namath
Don Maynard
Mark Gastineau
Curtis Martin
Kevin Mawae

I would switch out James Lofton for Andre Reed and add Jack Kemp.

 

[upstater1]

It's a fair question.

For the record, he played for the Pats for 7 years then moved ont o the Raiders for another 7, so he had precisely half his career with us.

He had 9 Pro Bowls in his career, of which 6 were with us and 3 with the Raiders.

He was named rookie of the year while with us, mostly for his fantastic punt returns and EIGHT interceptions.

He is a member of the 75th NFL Anniversary all time team, and his number, 40, is retired by the Patriots.

I think it's fair to say that his best years were with us, rather than with the Raiders, and that 7 years is enough time to earn a spot on our all-time top 5.

If it helps any, Brady has been our starting QB for precisely 7 years, since last year was lost.

You've convinced me, Haynes it is!

 

[tanked_as_usual]

+1

Many people believe Stanley Morgan should be in the NFL Hall of Fame. if you look at his stats in the era he played, they are phenomenal. On stats alone, he deserves to be in. His YPC is amazing.

ypc's were typically higher before the advent of the west coast offense

 

[upstater1]

ypc's were typically higher before the advent of the west coast offense

Compare Stanley's YPC at the number of catches to his contemporaries.
His average is higher, especially for number of catches.

I also went to this database: NFL 1982 League stats, awards and more on databaseFootball.com

It showed that YPC has not dropped between 1980-2000. Twenty years and the high each year is about 20 to 21, and the bottom of the top 10 is around 17 ypc.

Read this from Dr. Z, and realize that players like Lofton and Rice played part of their careers in the same era as Morgan.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/dr_z/11/09/hall.of.fame/

 

[jmt57]

ypc's were typically higher before the advent of the west coast offense

While that is true Morgan ranked 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st and 4th in the NFL in yards per catch from '78 to '82, and was among the top-10 seven times.

 

[Synovia]

In terms of TDs, Fryar had 7, 6, 5 and 5 as his best seasons as a Patriot.

Morgan had 12, 10, 6, 6, 5, 5, 5, 5, though obviously over more years.

Moss had more his first year than Fryar did his first 4 years. Morgan had 2 years, then 6 years of mediocrity.

Moss has already given more value to the patriots in his 2 years, than either one did their entire career.

 

[Amnorix]

Moss had more his first year than Fryar did his first 4 years. Morgan had 2 years, then 6 years of mediocrity.

Moss has already given more value to the patriots in his 2 years, than either one did their entire career.

Look, nobody is arguing that Morgan is as good as Moss. He just isn't. Neither is just about any other WR in NFL history this side of Jerry Rice.

But when you say "6 years of mediocrity", know what you're talking about. You seem to be referring to 1980-1985, when the Patriots were in the midst of the absolutely horrendous Ron Ehrhardt / Ron Meyers errors, errr, eras. They went 1-15 one of thos years, IIRC, and were overall terrible clubs.

Morgan had 550 catches, 10,700 yards and 72 TDs and he sure as hell never had anyone half as good as Tom Brady throwing him the ball. So you're free to pick Moss if you like, but don't tell me that Moss has done more in 2 years than Morgan did in 13 years with some pretty suck-ass teams.

 

[glm]

Look, nobody is arguing that Morgan is as good as Moss. He just isn't. Neither is just about any other WR in NFL history this side of Jerry Rice.

But when you say "6 years of mediocrity", know what you're talking about. You seem to be referring to 1980-1985, when the Patriots were in the midst of the absolutely horrendous Ron Ehrhardt / Ron Meyers errors, errr, eras. They went 1-15 one of thos years, IIRC, and were overall terrible clubs.

Morgan had 550 catches, 10,700 yards and 72 TDs and he sure as hell never had anyone half as good as Tom Brady throwing him the ball. So you're free to pick Moss if you like, but don't tell me that Moss has done more in 2 years than Morgan did in 13 years with some pretty suck-ass teams.

That was in 1990.

 

[Amnorix]

That was in 1990.

Right, 1-15 was Rod Rust. Sadly, that was the note that Morgan went out on. He had to endure that year as his last.

He also had to endure the Patriots' second worst year -- 1981 under Ron Ehrhardt -- 2-14


Patriots W-L with Morgan:

1990 1 15
1989 5 11
1988 9 7
1987 8 7
1986 11 5
1985 11 5
1984 9 7
1983 8 8
1982 5 4
1981 2 14
1980 10 6
1979 9 7
1978 11 5
1977 9 5


Some good years (with one SB trip), a bunch of average years and a couple truly horrendous years.

 

[Mogamedogz]

Id have a hard time leaving Troy Brown out of the top 5 patriot players of all time... all things considered.

I know most will disagree... but Browns contributions here played a critical role in the three SB seasons, and the record setting win streak.

Morgan was a great reciever... But I would take Troy Brown everytime. And I say that with a straight face.

 

[scout]

Id have a hard time leaving Troy Brown out of the top 5 patriot players of all time... all things considered.

I know most will disagree... but Browns contributions here played a critical role in the three SB seasons, and the record setting win streak.

Morgan was a great reciever... But I would take Troy Brown everytime. And I say that with a straight face.

When considering the top five, Troy Brown crossed my mind, as he probably did with a lot of people here. But, as good as he was, Morgan was better. Put Morgan in the game with Brady throwing to him.

 

[Patsgofor4]

I love Brown as much as the next guy but it's not really that close between him and Morgan. Morgan averaged 19.4 yards per catch and had 72 TDs (versus Brown's 11.4 and 31). Morgan was great player who played on a lot of bad teams.

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

We're talking all-time here? Then I have to include the Baltimore Colts, while they played in the AFC East, which I think was like 1971-1983...

My first Pats game ever was the 1976 season opener vs. the Colts. The Pats had a great team that year, finishing 11-3 before getting knocked out in the playoffs vs. the Raiders - the infamous "Ray Hamilton phantom roughing the passer call on Stabler" game...

Most people forget the Colts also finished 11-3 that year, too, and tied the Pats for first in the AFC East...

At that game, Lydell Mitchell ran for 100 yards and caught another 7-8 passes, plus rushed for a late TD...

Colts QB Bert Jones was his usual Patriots-killing self, throwing a couple of TDs in what was a pretty hard fought game. I remember Andy Johnson running some hard yards for the Pats.

Anyone know where I can check out a box score of that game? Is there such a thing online for that far back?

Anyway, here are my choices, just off the top of my head...

Baltimore Colts
-Ted Hendricks
-Bert Jones
-Lydell Mitchell
-Roger Carr
-Rosy Leaks

Dolphins
-Dan Marino
-Mark Clayton
-Mark Duper
-Mercury Morris
-Larry Csonka

Bills
-Andre Reed
-Bruce Smith
-Jim Kelly
-OJ Simpson & Reggie MacKenzie (The Electric Company, because they turned on the Juice!)
-Cornelius Bennett

Jets
-Richard Todd
-Joe Klecko
-Joe Namath
-Emerson Boozer
-Wayne Chrebet

Patriots
-Tom Brady
-Rodney Harrison
-Tedy Bruschi/Andre Tippett
-Russ Francis
-Steve Grogan

 

[Amnorix]

We're talking all-time here? Then I have to include the Baltimore Colts, while they played in the AFC East, which I think was like 1971-1983...

I considered including them, but it makes it very messy. They had a long history as an NFL club before 1960, when the other 4 AFC East clubs were all formed, and then they didn't join the AFC East for many years after that. Then, of course, they move to Indianapolis, and then some time later they're out of the AFCE altogether. Seemed easier to exclude them. But it's all good.

 

[DarrylS]

These history teams and who is best are intriguing, look at Tippett on mediocre teams for a long time.. still made the HOF.. some compared his skills to LT... but on a mediocre team many times he was overlooked.

Morgan had Grogan, would he have been better if he had Brady? Would Moss be in the conversation if he had Grogan??

Hannah, Brady and Tippett are easy.. as they were clearly the best of the best.. the rest have a lot of variables.. as much as Haynes is great.. he left us half way through.

 

[PittPatriot]

These history teams and who is best are intriguing, look at Tippett on mediocre teams for a long time.. still made the HOF.. some compared his skills to LT... but on a mediocre team many times he was overlooked.

Morgan had Grogan, would he have been better if he had Brady? Would Moss be in the conversation if he had Grogan??

Hannah, Brady and Tippett are easy.. as they were clearly the best of the best.. the rest have a lot of variables.. as much as Haynes is great.. he left us half way through.

Great point. Even a guy like Irving Fryar (please don't laugh) had the size, speed, and tools to be much better than an above average player but never had a consistent QB or OC to build on. In that case, guys like Harrison and Reggie Wayne have major advantage to make 'all-time' of HOF teams.

 

[furley]

If we're talking about current players... Here's my choices or guesses.


Patriots - Brady, Moss, Wilfork, Mankins and Gostkowski
Bills - Lynch, Schobel, Evans, Stroud and Owens
Jets - Ellis, Jenkins, Jones, Revis and Washington
Dolphins - Long, Brown, Bell, Pennington and Wilson