You be the GM

[DocHoliday]

I think the main problem with Llyod is that he's due a bonus that pays him 3 million dollars, so this makes the decision and gamble even harder to try and predict.

I could be wrong, but I don't think we can wait until the draft before making that decision, unless I am misunderstanding you.

My thought was that assuming the Patriots felt their number one need was interior pressure from a DT, the loss of Melton to the franchise tag and the lack of other real options made it likely the team would go to the draft to get it. That means at most a round 2 WR, and a lesser chance at a sure fire starter. With that in mind, letting go of Lloyd doesn't seem to be a luxury.

This is all assuming the Patriots want interior pressure above all else. They could just as we'll feel Armstead and the continued development of the you get guys will suffice, allowing a first round pick of someone like Rogers or Hopkins.

 

[mgteich]

I believe that the option date being thrown around is March sixteenth. We need to pay the option by that date or Lloyd is a free agent. Personally, I think that this is fine. Decisions can definitely be made by then. The team will know its option.

And for me, a WR wide receiver at #29 or later should not be considered in the same breath as Lloyd in terms of the expected production this year. Wide receivers usually take a year to learn the system, if they ever do.

I think the main problem with Llyod is that he's due a bonus that pays him 3 million dollars, so this makes the decision and gamble even harder to try and predict.

I could be wrong, but I don't think we can wait until the draft before making that decision, unless I am misunderstanding you.

 

[Deus Irae]

Interesting note on why the cap is higher than expected:

For those interested in such minutia, bump in '13 cap due in part to deferment o'13 season performance pool til '16, instead of March '14

https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/statuses/307871988804886528

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Interesting note on why the cap is higher than expected:



https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/statuses/307871988804886528

Translate to English for cap ******s like me please

 

[Ring 6]

Wide receivers usually take a year to learn the system, if they ever do.

I get that conceptually that makes sense, but in reality I'm not so sure it can be backed up.
Moss, Gaffney, Welker,Edleman, Branch, Caldewell, Lloyd all have no issues learning the system in their first year.
The fact that some lesser (or less intelligent) players had trouble with it is a statement on the player not the system.
Additionally, the thought of whether a first round pick could 'get it' as a rookie is unknown because we have never drafted a 1st round WR.
Chad Jackson being unworthy of round 1 and a dummy, Price being a 3rd specifically because he came from an archaic offense, and Tate missing his first year with an injury are hardly damning proof the system is too hard to get.

 

[patfanken]

I get that conceptually that makes sense, but in reality I'm not so sure it can be backed up.
Moss, Gaffney, Welker,Edleman, Branch, Caldewell, Lloyd all have no issues learning the system in their first year.
The fact that some lesser (or less intelligent) players had trouble with it is a statement on the player not the system.
Additionally, the thought of whether a first round pick could 'get it' as a rookie is unknown because we have never drafted a 1st round WR.
Chad Jackson being unworthy of round 1 and a dummy, Price being a 3rd specifically because he came from an archaic offense, and Tate missing his first year with an injury are hardly damning proof the system is too hard to get.

I'm not so sure, Andy. Yes there have been guys who have "gotten it" right away, but there have also been guys like Ocho, Joey Galloway, and Tory Holt, who all were 10,000 yd career receivers who clearly had trouble with this system. I don't know if its because of intelligence, but I doubt it. It could be the Pats offensive system is unique enough that it just isn't "for" everyone, which makes it very tough to project both WR draft picks and FA's. Is this guy going to "get it" or not. We just don't know until they get here.

You know you never hear the Pats offense being compared to any one "system", like a West Coast offense etc. I wonder why?

BTW- an interesting blurb out of Mike Reiss I though worth repeating. He mentions that from what he's heard Brandon Lloyd's so called "locker room issues" are way over blown. If the Pats do end up releasing him it will be more about the money than any "problems" he caused. He mentioned there have been far worse guys than Lloyd who they managed to keep.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Justin Blackmon:

64 receptions 865 yards 5 TDs

Kendall Wright:

64 receptions 626 yards 4 TDs

Josh Gordon:

50 receptions 805 yards 5 TDs

T.Y Hilton:

50 receptions 861 yards 7 TDs

Chris Givens:

42 receptions 698 yards 3 TDs

Rod Streater (UDFA):

39 receptions 584 yards 3 TDs

Michael Floyd:

45 receptions 562 yards 2 TDs

All of these rookies had an immediate impact and would of been our de-facto #3 WR, while a few (Blackmon, Gordon, Hilton) may of been better than Lloyd here in their rookie season.

 

[Deus Irae]

Alright.... I'm sure I've made some errors, but here goes (in 2 parts):

$123 million to start
-
$4.64 million in dead money
-
$5 million in bonuses and rookie salaries
= 113.36 million

QB
Brady - $13,800,000.00
Brian Hoyer - $1,000,000
QB Total - $14,800,000

RB
Ridley - $805,500.00
Vereen - $943,950.00
Bolden - $485,000.00
Demps - $408,666.00
RB Total - $2,643,116

TE
Hernandez - $4,073,000.00
Gronkowski - $2,700,000.00
Ballard - $637,000.00
Fells - $1,583,333
TE Total - 8,993,333

WR
Lloyd - $4,500,000
Slater - $2,266,666.00
WR Total - 6,766,666

OL
Solder - $2,329,225.00
Mankins - $6,000,000.00
Wendell - $1,015,000.00
Connolly - $3,333,333
Cannon - $637,687.00
McDonald - $630,000.00
OL Total - $13,945,275

Basic Offense Total - $47,148,390


Additions:

(WR) Welker - $6,500,000
(WR) Edelman - $2,000,000
(WR) Round 2 draft pick - paid for above (moved up to #46 with trade of 3rd round pick)
(RB) Woodhead - $2,000,000
(OT) Max Starks - $2,000,000
(TE) Michael Hoomanawanui - $715,000

Additions total - $13,215,000

Total offensive players - 24 + minimums/camp invitees
Total offensive cap cost - $60,363,390

 

[Deus Irae]

$123 million to start
-
$4.64 million in dead money
-
$5 million in bonuses and rookie salaries
= 113.36 million

DL
Vince Wilfork -$10,600,000.00
Kyle Love - $1,100,000.00
Brandon Deaderick - $640,075.00
Myron Pryor - $715,000.00
Armond Armstead - $405,000.00
Chandler Jones - $1,857,302.00
Rob Ninkovich - $2,166,666.00
Jake Bequette - $614,950.00
Justin Francis - $482,333.00
Jason Vega - $405,000.00
DL Total - $18,986,326

LB
Brandon Spikes - $870,000.0
Dont'a Hightower - $1,755,455.00
Jerod Mayo - $5,600,000.00
Dane Fletcher - $620,000.00
Mike Rivera - $480,000.00
Marcus Bernard - $630,000.00
LB Total - $9,955,455

DB
Devin McCourty - $1,845,000.00
Tavon Wilson - $958,522.00
Steve Gregory - $2,183,333.00
Nate Ebner - $504,150.00
Alfonzo Dennard - $494,462.00
Ras-I Dowling - $1,446,572.00
DB Total - $7,432,039

Basic defense total - 36,373,820

Additions:
(DL) Wallace Gilberry - $2,000,000
S Round 1 draft pick - paid for above
CB Grimes/Talib (whichever takes the deal) $7,000,000
CB Tyrann Matthieu - paid for above, gotten via Mallett trade to Ari for pick 100

Additions Total - $9,000,000

Total defensive players - 26
Total defensive cap cost - $45,373,820


Special teams -

Zoltan Mesko - $1,369,812.00
Danny Aiken - $555,000.00
Stephen Gostkowski - $3,400,000.00

Total special teams players - 3
Total special teams cap cost - $5,324,812

Total team cap cost - $120,712,022

Note #1: Gilberry is a placeholder, as much as anything else. I've got $2 million left to play with if I want to offer up to $4 million for Freeney/Abraham/Umenyiora instead of paying Gilberry.

Note #2: I'm at over 53 players already and, obviously don't need to apply the last couple of deals to the cap. I chose to leave it in order to keep more cap space theoretically available to sign someone who springs loose.

Note #3: I'd still need to sign someone for the IOL and WR spots, but I'd start off looking for a minimum salary type of player/camp competition guys, and wait to see what shook loose.

Note #4: The list gives me 2 QBs + Kafka, 5 RBs, 5TEs, 5WRs, 7OL, 11 DL, 6LBs 9DBs, 1 K, 1 P and 1 LS, along with the practice squad signees, heading into camp.

Note #5: If I've missed anything or made a mistake, please let me know.

 

[DocHoliday]

OL
Solder - $2,329,225.00
Mankins - $6,000,000.00
Wendell - $1,015,000.00
Connolly - $3,333,333
Cannon - $637,687.00
McDonald - $630,000.00
OL Total - $13,945,275

Basic Offense Total - $47,148,390


Additions:

(WR) Welker - $6,500,000
(WR) Edelman - $2,000,000
(WR) Round 2 draft pick - paid for above (moved up to #46 with trade of 3rd round pick)
(RB) Woodhead - $2,000,000
(OT) Max Starks - $2,000,000
(TE) Michael Hoomanawanui - $715,000

Additions total - $13,215,000

Total offensive players - 24 + minimums/camp invitees
Total offensive cap cost - $60,363,390

Brian Hoyer is a RFA unfortunately, since he only was active 5 games for Arizona.

You also only have three tackles, par is 4-5 with total OL 8-10. I really dig the Starks addition though.

Defense looks solid, though I'd hope we'd get someone better than Gilberry like you said in your notes.

 

[Deus Irae]

First, thanks for the input. Now, let me explain my reasoning to see if it holds up. Please let me know if you feel it falls short:

Brian Hoyer is a RFA unfortunately, since he only was active 5 games for Arizona.

I don't see them keeping Hoyer if they make the trade for Mallett. I thought it was a reasonable assumption, but if others don't think so, I've left cap space, so I can spend a bit more for Cassel.

You also only have three tackles, par is 4-5 with total OL 8-10. I really dig the Starks addition though.

Thanks about Starks. He's played both tackle positions in his career and doesn't expect to be going back to Pittsburgh. As for the remaining OTs, I was figuring on camp comp level guys being coached up by Donte, or someone springing loose.

Defense looks solid, though I'd hope we'd get someone better than Gilberry like you said in your notes.

I hear you. Gilberry had a nice season in limited snaps last year, when it comes to rushing the passer. He's nothing beyond a 3rd down pass rusher, but I wouldn't hate the signing (and I needed a placeholder).

Thanks for the notes. If you continue to feel I should add names for the OT spot, let me know. Barry Richardson is a guy who can serve as a backup and start in a pinch, but I think he might be looking for starter's money and maybe even a starting job, so I couldn't figure out a reasonable contract to offer him.

As a side note.... I really want to see who shakes loose from K.C. There are several potential cuts that I could see BB bringing in for a try.

 

[supafly]

BTW- an interesting blurb out of Mike Reiss I though worth repeating. He mentions that from what he's heard Brandon Lloyd's so called "locker room issues" are way over blown. If the Pats do end up releasing him it will be more about the money than any "problems" he caused. He mentioned there have been far worse guys than Lloyd who they managed to keep.

I think this report seems to coincide with what we saw, admittedly as limited as that may be in comparison to what the team sees every day in practice etc. I just think that if he had been that big of a problem, we'd have heard something on some level hinting that.

I don't think Llyod should be let go, but that's just my opinion. Luckily we'll have several days in free agency before having to make that decision, unless they do him a favor and let him sooner if their mind's are already made up.

Trying to replace Llyod may prove to be too much of a gamble in my opinion.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not so sure, Andy. Yes there have been guys who have "gotten it" right away, but there have also been guys like Ocho, Joey Galloway, and Tory Holt, who all were 10,000 yd career receivers who clearly had trouble with this system. I don't know if its because of intelligence, but I doubt it. It could be the Pats offensive system is unique enough that it just isn't "for" everyone, which makes it very tough to project both WR draft picks and FA's. Is this guy going to "get it" or not. We just don't know until they get here.

You cant count Holt, he was injured, not struggling to get the system.
85 was a dummy and Galloways problem was widely known to be misreading coverage.

You know you never hear the Pats offense being compared to any one "system", like a West Coast offense etc. I wonder why?

What offense do your hear being compared to another? Really a non-point here.

BTW- an interesting blurb out of Mike Reiss I though worth repeating. He mentions that from what he's heard Brandon Lloyd's so called "locker room issues" are way over blown. If the Pats do end up releasing him it will be more about the money than any "problems" he caused. He mentioned there have been far worse guys than Lloyd who they managed to keep.

And Bedard says the opposite. Of course Lloyd hasn't been released so its premature to base anything on what someone thinks the reason that someone may be released, if they do would in their opinion 'more about' one thing than another. Another non-point, really.

 

[supafly]

Of course Lloyd hasn't been released so its premature to base anything on what someone thinks the reason that someone may be released, if they do would in their opinion 'more about' one thing than another.

What's your opinion on the Llyod situation, Andy? Setting aside the speculation that he's a problem or whatever, if you can--unless you think that comes into play enough to warrant a decision based on that.

 

[Brady6]

$123 million to start
-
$4.64 million in dead money
-
$5 million in bonuses and rookie salaries
= 113.36 million

DL
Vince Wilfork -$10,600,000.00
Kyle Love - $1,100,000.00
Brandon Deaderick - $640,075.00
Myron Pryor - $715,000.00
Armond Armstead - $405,000.00
Chandler Jones - $1,857,302.00
Rob Ninkovich - $2,166,666.00
Jake Bequette - $614,950.00
Justin Francis - $482,333.00
Jason Vega - $405,000.00
DL Total - $18,986,326

LB
Brandon Spikes - $870,000.0
Dont'a Hightower - $1,755,455.00
Jerod Mayo - $5,600,000.00
Dane Fletcher - $620,000.00
Mike Rivera - $480,000.00
Marcus Bernard - $630,000.00
LB Total - $9,955,455

DB
Devin McCourty - $1,845,000.00
Tavon Wilson - $958,522.00
Steve Gregory - $2,183,333.00
Nate Ebner - $504,150.00
Alfonzo Dennard - $494,462.00
Ras-I Dowling - $1,446,572.00
DB Total - $7,432,039

Basic defense total - 36,373,820

Additions:
(DL) Wallace Gilberry - $2,000,000
S Round 1 draft pick - paid for above
CB Grimes/Talib (whichever takes the deal) $7,000,000
CB Tyrann Matthieu - paid for above, gotten via Mallett trade to Ari for pick 100

Additions Total - $9,000,000

Total defensive players - 26
Total defensive cap cost - $45,373,820


Special teams -

Zoltan Mesko - $1,369,812.00
Danny Aiken - $555,000.00
Stephen Gostkowski - $3,400,000.00

Total special teams players - 3
Total special teams cap cost - $5,324,812

Total team cap cost - $120,712,022

Note #1: Gilberry is a placeholder, as much as anything else. I've got $2 million left to play with if I want to offer up to $4 million for Freeney/Abraham/Umenyiora instead of paying Gilberry.

Note #2: I'm at over 53 players already and, obviously don't need to apply the last couple of deals to the cap. I chose to leave it in order to keep more cap space theoretically available to sign someone who springs loose.

Note #3: I'd still need to sign someone for the IOL and WR spots, but I'd start off looking for a minimum salary type of player/camp competition guys, and wait to see what shook loose.

Note #4: The list gives me 2 QBs + Kafka, 5 RBs, 5TEs, 5WRs, 7OL, 11 DL, 6LBs 9DBs, 1 K, 1 P and 1 LS, along with the practice squad signees, heading into camp.

Note #5: If I've missed anything or made a mistake, please let me know.

You're cutting Cunningham, just curious of the logic behind that. He appeared to turn a corner last year.

 

[DocHoliday]

You're cutting Cunningham, just curious of the logic behind that. He appeared to turn a corner last year.

I don't know about Dues, but in my projections I have him cut because he could not recover his production post PED suspension. Smells fishy, and I think the team has more hope invested in Francis, who took a lot of his snaps as the year ended.

 

[Ring 6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJohnson


Of course Lloyd hasn't been released so its premature to base anything on what someone thinks the reason that someone may be released, if they do would in their opinion 'more about' one thing than another.

What's your opinion on the Llyod situation, Andy? Setting aside the speculation that he's a problem or whatever, if you can--unless you think that comes into play enough to warrant a decision based on that.

I think if there are no issues of the field or for as a teammate its a no brainer to keep him. We won't get a better player for the cost difference which I'd only 2.5 mill (cap vs dead money)


Posted from Patsfans.com App for Android

 

[Ring 6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jax

You're cutting Cunningham, just curious of the logic behind that. He appeared to turn a corner last year.

I don't know about Dues, but in my projections I have him cut because he could not recover his production post PED suspension. Smells fishy, and I think the team has more hope invested in Francis, who took a lot of his snaps as the year ended.

I don't think its accurate to say Francis took snaps away from Cunningham.


Posted from Patsfans.com App for Android

 

[Deus Irae]

Randy Starks is not an option:

The first entry in today’s version of Beat the Clock is the Dolphins, who have placed the franchise tag on defensive tackle Randy Starks, according to multiple reports.

Dolphins place franchise tag on Randy Starks | ProFootballTalk

 

[Jimke]

I think this report seems to coincide with what we saw, admittedly as limited as that may be in comparison to what the team sees every day in practice etc. I just think that if he had been that big of a problem, we'd have heard something on some level hinting that.

I don't think Llyod should be let go, but that's just my opinion. Luckily we'll have several days in free agency before having to make that decision, unless they do him a favor and let him sooner if their mind's are already made up.

Trying to replace Llyod may prove to be too much of a gamble in my opinion.

Lloyd does not get good separation and tries to avoid contact by going
down before he is hit. He makes spectacular diving catches but drops
some easy catches. However, he made 74 receptions for over 900 yards
and should not be released until the Patriots have an adequate replacement
under contract.