Patriots are 27/32 on cash tracker for this year as of 4-18

[WinstonSmith]

None of this is relevant, you’re scrambling to prove something I haven’t argued. You’ve failed with the facts from the get go. Stop responding While you are behind

Are you guys under the impression that whomever claims victory last wins?

 

[Wozzy]

None of this is relevant, you’re scrambling to prove something I haven’t argued. You’ve failed with the facts from the get go. Stop responding While you are behind

Nothing is “relevant” when it makes your unicorn QB theory look foolish.

Maybe if you say you’re “winning” it will actually appear that way… it won’t, but maybe… at least to other rubes who believe QB’s have magical powers and fantasy football is the same as real world football.

 

[All3Phases]

Nothing is “relevant” when it makes your unicorn QB theory look foolish.

Maybe if you say you’re “winning” it will actually appear that way… it won’t, but maybe… at least to other rubes who believe QB’s have magical powers and fantasy football is the same as real world football.

I mean, you posted a gif saying I lost, isn’t that claiming you won something? Don’t be a hypocrite too.

You are free to have your opinion on what matters in football, but you have been factually incorrect about alot of things about the chiefs in this conversation

 

[Wozzy]

I mean, you posted a gif saying I lost, isn’t that claiming you won something? Don’t be a hypocrite too.

You are free to have your opinion on what matters in football, but you have been factually incorrect about alot of things about the chiefs in this conversation

I already addressed your defense question multiple times. Here I’ll copy/paste it again because you’re reading impaired:

The year the Chiefs won a Super Bowl in 2019 the team scored the 5th most points and gave up the 7th fewest points. Last season they gave up more points, but their defense in the playoffs led the entire postseason in forced turnovers and sacks. Where is "bad?"

They changed their team philosophy from ball control offense to out scoring offense and changed defensive coordinators to a guy known for prioritizing forced turnovers.

Deshaun Watson led the entire NFL in passing yards and total offense (Mahomes was #2) in 2020... but only won 4 games. You told us an team only needed a superior QB to be relevant.

Explain this paradox... you’ve been ducking this question for 4 pages or so. Why?

Because when two QB’s are ranked #1 and #2 in total offense in 2020, but the QB1 wins 4 games while the second wins 14…. it has absolutely nothing to do with a difference between QB’s and everything to do with the quality of team around them.

You’ve been avoiding this like the plague because it shoots holes in your nonsense take. I’m done with this back and forth and will take your avoidance in answering this contradiction as a sign of defeat.

You did lose, you lost when you couldn’t debate an inconvenient truth.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Because more than one person thinks your magic QB theory is garbage? Sounds legit.

It’s garbage because it attributes team success to one person rather than the team.

We know it to be garbage because stats and facts prove it.

When two QB’s are ranked #1 and #2 in total offense in 2020, but the QB1 wins 4 games while the second wins 14…. it has absolutely nothing to do with a difference between QB’s and everything to do with the quality of team around them.

This is one of the many "how hard is this to grasp?" points of fandom

Most important position on the field =/= only position on the field

Other fun ideas from this thread, page 1, straight to the OMG pile:

The Pats' "lackluster spending"

Okay why do I have to say this... but...

You can have a lackluster performance. You can have humble, or underwhelming, or perhaps even parsimonious spending. But you're missing the point if you believe there's "lackluster" spending, or that if there is such a thing it's automatically bad. It implies that the opposite is spending at such a gaudy level that the spending itself is good without regard to results. Well, we had high-luster spending a couple of years ago, with mixed results at best; the kind of results you try to prop up by saying, yeah, but you don't know how bad we'd have been without that spending, etc. I mean, I wanted more to pan out from that spree than did. But I don't say things like "say what you want about that spending, that was some Benjamin-Moore-High-Gloss-Plus-Stripper-Glitter spending. We won spending." (although at the time I came close, because that year there was a theory of a one-year sea-change in caponomics.)

Everything else aside, we'll spend to the cap or thereabouts... not as in, well, only 10% difference b/w us and the cap, more like to get to the cap we'lll taaaake... the overpriced set of tiki mugs and polynesian serving set and take the rest on a gift certificate.

Now that said... we didn't drop big ol' free agency outset bombs and we are all the way to the actual draft omg omg omg.

I am thrilled when I see the ST pickups and potential pickups. I don't know whether we did anything other than a swap of abilities by letting Mr. Underrated Meyers go and picking up JuJu--maybe a smidge more upside. At least we wont create a legion of woe-is-me-we-cant-move-the-chains whiners. Thus far, the build is not successfully duplicating the most successful years we've seen, and that's what everything's measured against. We will always lose this comparison.

What we have done is built some pretty stout defenses and an absolute run game machine -- and you know if we hadn't done that we'd have every boohoo in the six states n beyond whining 24/7 too. Now QB and a game-changing WR are the measure of all things for the shiny-objects contingent. Last year was a weird experiment, and we're now behind on all sorts of timelines... we treaded water on two young QB timelines, although how Mac responded is a bit much. We really don't know how much/how badly we whiffed on some WR moves, though we still have the potential to learn more. We definitely would do well to land a gamechanging wideout... but if it doesn't happen, there are the other more achievable targets... quality O-line play, depth at all positions, a move up from gentleman's C to B at receiver, what benefits can come from coaching rather than experimenting on the O and along the O Line especially.

I'll totally get off on the Christmas-Eve feeling of the draft, I have no doubt. If my deep-cut binkie of Jack Coletto gets picked in NE or picked up as an UDFA so much better, and if we get that returner-receiver from the St. Louis Battlehawks by God I will be ecstatic.

(And of course I'm down if the shiny object du jour comes through... with or without spending with sufficient luster. I'd actually prefer without.)

 

[Vindicate]

Are you guys under the impression that whomever claims victory last wins?

Hmmm....



I win..... Shhh... Don't tell them.

 

[Sam Bam Cunningham]

This is one of the many "how hard is this to grasp?" points of fandom

Most important position on the field =/= only position on the field

Other fun ideas from this thread, page 1, straight to the OMG pile:

The Pats' "lackluster spending"

Okay why do I have to say this... but...

You can have a lackluster performance. You can have humble, or underwhelming, or perhaps even parsimonious spending. But you're missing the point if you believe there's "lackluster" spending, or that if there is such a thing it's automatically bad. It implies that the opposite is spending at such a gaudy level that the spending itself is good without regard to results. Well, we had high-luster spending a couple of years ago, with mixed results at best; the kind of results you try to prop up by saying, yeah, but you don't know how bad we'd have been without that spending, etc. I mean, I wanted more to pan out from that spree than did. But I don't say things like "say what you want about that spending, that was some Benjamin-Moore-High-Gloss-Plus-Stripper-Glitter spending. We won spending." (although at the time I came close, because that year there was a theory of a one-year sea-change in caponomics.)

Everything else aside, we'll spend to the cap or thereabouts... not as in, well, only 10% difference b/w us and the cap, more like to get to the cap we'lll taaaake... the overpriced set of tiki mugs and polynesian serving set and take the rest on a gift certificate.

Now that said... we didn't drop big ol' free agency outset bombs and we are all the way to the actual draft omg omg omg.

I am thrilled when I see the ST pickups and potential pickups. I don't know whether we did anything other than a swap of abilities by letting Mr. Underrated Meyers go and picking up JuJu--maybe a smidge more upside. At least we wont create a legion of woe-is-me-we-cant-move-the-chains whiners. Thus far, the build is not successfully duplicating the most successful years we've seen, and that's what everything's measured against. We will always lose this comparison.

What we have done is built some pretty stout defenses and an absolute run game machine -- and you know if we hadn't done that we'd have every boohoo in the six states n beyond whining 24/7 too. Now QB and a game-changing WR are the measure of all things for the shiny-objects contingent. Last year was a weird experiment, and we're now behind on all sorts of timelines... we treaded water on two young QB timelines, although how Mac responded is a bit much. We really don't know how much/how badly we whiffed on some WR moves, though we still have the potential to learn more. We definitely would do well to land a gamechanging wideout... but if it doesn't happen, there are the other more achievable targets... quality O-line play, depth at all positions, a move up from gentleman's C to B at receiver, what benefits can come from coaching rather than experimenting on the O and along the O Line especially.

I'll totally get off on the Christmas-Eve feeling of the draft, I have no doubt. If my deep-cut binkie of Jack Coletto gets picked in NE or picked up as an UDFA so much better, and if we get that returner-receiver from the St. Louis Battlehawks by God I will be ecstatic.

(And of course I'm down if the shiny object du jour comes through... with or without spending with sufficient luster. I'd actually prefer without.)

Outstanding post. Well thought out and cogent points without insulting anyone. As the op, i appreciate your adressing the topic and not making it personal. I understand and agree with much of what you are saying.

 

[Wozzy]

This is one of the many "how hard is this to grasp?" points of fandom

Most important position on the field =/= only position on the field

Other fun ideas from this thread, page 1, straight to the OMG pile:

The Pats' "lackluster spending"

Okay why do I have to say this... but...

You can have a lackluster performance. You can have humble, or underwhelming, or perhaps even parsimonious spending. But you're missing the point if you believe there's "lackluster" spending, or that if there is such a thing it's automatically bad. It implies that the opposite is spending at such a gaudy level that the spending itself is good without regard to results. Well, we had high-luster spending a couple of years ago, with mixed results at best; the kind of results you try to prop up by saying, yeah, but you don't know how bad we'd have been without that spending, etc. I mean, I wanted more to pan out from that spree than did. But I don't say things like "say what you want about that spending, that was some Benjamin-Moore-High-Gloss-Plus-Stripper-Glitter spending. We won spending." (although at the time I came close, because that year there was a theory of a one-year sea-change in caponomics.)

Everything else aside, we'll spend to the cap or thereabouts... not as in, well, only 10% difference b/w us and the cap, more like to get to the cap we'lll taaaake... the overpriced set of tiki mugs and polynesian serving set and take the rest on a gift certificate.

Now that said... we didn't drop big ol' free agency outset bombs and we are all the way to the actual draft omg omg omg.

I am thrilled when I see the ST pickups and potential pickups. I don't know whether we did anything other than a swap of abilities by letting Mr. Underrated Meyers go and picking up JuJu--maybe a smidge more upside. At least we wont create a legion of woe-is-me-we-cant-move-the-chains whiners. Thus far, the build is not successfully duplicating the most successful years we've seen, and that's what everything's measured against. We will always lose this comparison.

What we have done is built some pretty stout defenses and an absolute run game machine -- and you know if we hadn't done that we'd have every boohoo in the six states n beyond whining 24/7 too. Now QB and a game-changing WR are the measure of all things for the shiny-objects contingent. Last year was a weird experiment, and we're now behind on all sorts of timelines... we treaded water on two young QB timelines, although how Mac responded is a bit much. We really don't know how much/how badly we whiffed on some WR moves, though we still have the potential to learn more. We definitely would do well to land a gamechanging wideout... but if it doesn't happen, there are the other more achievable targets... quality O-line play, depth at all positions, a move up from gentleman's C to B at receiver, what benefits can come from coaching rather than experimenting on the O and along the O Line especially.

I'll totally get off on the Christmas-Eve feeling of the draft, I have no doubt. If my deep-cut binkie of Jack Coletto gets picked in NE or picked up as an UDFA so much better, and if we get that returner-receiver from the St. Louis Battlehawks by God I will be ecstatic.

(And of course I'm down if the shiny object du jour comes through... with or without spending with sufficient luster. I'd actually prefer without.)

I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt had Josh McDaniels stayed one more season or Obie arrived a season earlier, the Patriots would have made the playoffs, possibly won a game or more and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

One poor coaching decision led to all this angst and created a negative nancy and troll friendly environment.

 

[All3Phases]

I already addressed your defense question multiple times. Here I’ll copy/paste it again because you’re reading impaired:

The year the Chiefs won a Super Bowl in 2019 the team scored the 5th most points and gave up the 7th fewest points. Last season they gave up more points, but their defense in the playoffs led the entire postseason in forced turnovers and sacks. Where is "bad?"

What is the most important defensive statistic to measure a team in your opinion? Imo it’s Points per drive. Do you agree or disagree?

They changed their team philosophy from ball control offense to out scoring offense and changed defensive coordinators to a guy known for prioritizing forced turnovers.

Which is why points per Drive is the best statistic, which they were much worse in in Mahomes years

Deshaun Watson led the entire NFL in passing yards and total offense (Mahomes was #2) in 2020... but only won 4 games. You told us an team only needed a superior QB to be relevant.

Explain this paradox... you’ve been ducking this question for 4 pages or so. Why?

There’s no paradox, I’m talking about Mahomes and you’re talking about an irrelevant topic, because you’re scrambling about the chiefs

Because when two QB’s are ranked #1 and #2 in total offense in 2020, but the QB1 wins 4 games while the second wins 14…. it has absolutely nothing to do with a difference between QB’s and everything to do with the quality of team around them.

You’ve been avoiding this like the plague because it shoots holes in your nonsense take. I’m done with this back and forth and will take your avoidance in answering this contradiction as a sign of defeat.

You did lose, you lost when you couldn’t debate an inconvenient truth.

There’s no inconvenient truth, Mahomes is the most important piece in the Chiefs organization as was Brady here. Generational qbs aren’t guys that had a good year randomly. There’s a massive difference, but since you believe quarterbacks don’t matter; you disagree with that.

 

[Wozzy]

What is the most important defensive statistic to measure a team in your opinion? Imo it’s Points per drive. Do you agree or disagree?

In a vacuum, if you're just judging defense alone, points per drive is the stat which most accurately judges defense for points allowed.

In the bigger picture, "points" is the most important stat in football... most specifically point differential. They judge wins and losses on points.

The second most important stat in football is "turnovers," because they correlate most to points.

Which is why points per Drive is the best statistic, which they were much worse in in Mahomes years

They weren't much worse, they were a smidge worse per drive, yet their total team point differential was better.

They scored more points offensively, they gave up slightly more points defensively per drive but as a team allowed fewer opportunities for their opponents to score (possessions/time). They controlled the clock and forced turnovers defensively. It was a shift in philosophy brought about by a new defensive coordinator and change in personnel.

There’s no paradox, I’m talking about Mahomes and you’re talking about an irrelevant topic, because you’re scrambling about the chiefs

There’s no inconvenient truth, Mahomes is the most important piece in the Chiefs organization as was Brady here. Generational qbs aren’t guys that had a good year randomly. There’s a massive difference, but since you believe quarterbacks don’t matter; you disagree with that.

So you've ignored explaining for like the nth time how Deshaun Watson could be the best QB in the NFL in 2020 yet only win 4 games.

It's strange, you told us we only needed a superior QB and everything would be okay?

No wonder you won't address this phenomenon... because you can't.

 

[All3Phases]

In a vacuum, if you're just judging defense alone, points per drive is the stat which most accurately judges defense for points allowed.

They were much worse in comparison to the league averages, and it’s not close. I’ve provided you that data, which you conveniently ignored

In the bigger picture, "points" is the most important stat in football... most specifically point differential. They judge wins and losses on points.

See turnover stats below. Points per game average in the span of 2013-2017=19 ppg. From 2018-2022=22.3 ppg. So they’re worse in points per drive, forcing turnovers and points per game.

The second most important stat in football is "turnovers," because they correlate most to points.

They were bad in what you deemed the most important stat

“from years 13-17 by rank. 5,7,7,8,21. This resulted in 1-4 in playoffs games. Here’s from 18-22 with mahomes. 28,12,13,19, 21st.”

They weren't much worse, they were a smidge worse per drive, yet their total team point differential was better.

Please use previous stats I’ve provided. You claimed they were better 3 pages ago, are you admitting you were incorrect here? I’ve proven that factually you’ve been wrong about the 3 major defensive categories you’ve listed.

“They also didn't have Chris Jones, a far superior offensive line or defense nearly as good as later teams.”

They scored more points offensively, they gave up slightly more points defensively per drive but as a team allowed fewer opportunities for their opponents to score (possessions/time). They controlled the clock and forced turnovers defensively. It was a shift in philosophy brought about by a new defensive coordinator and change in personnel.

Yes, dominating on offense helps the defense, and they still weren’t as good. They were also a better team at forcing turnovers from 13-17 vs 18-22. So again, wrong. Turnovers forced ranked by year

13-2nd
14-30th (3rd in ppg-TO didn’t correlate to points)
15-5th
16-1st
17-7th

18-9th
19-11th
20-14th
21-6th
22-22nd

So you've ignored explaining for like the nth time how Deshaun Watson could be the best QB in the NFL in 2020 yet only win 4 games.

It's strange, you told us we only needed a superior QB and everything would be okay?

No wonder you won't address this phenomenon... because you can't.

Watson isn’t mahomes, I’ve never brought up Watson. You telling me you think Watson is better than mahomes means nothing to me. We have strayed so far off topic at this point it’s comical

 

[Wozzy]

They were much worse in comparison to the league averages, and it’s not close. I’ve provided you that data, which you conveniently ignored

See turnover stats below. Points per game average in the span of 2013-2017=19 ppg. From 2018-2022=22.3 ppg. So they’re worse in points per drive, forcing turnovers and points per game.

They were bad in what you deemed the most important stat

“from years 13-17 by rank. 5,7,7,8,21. This resulted in 1-4 in playoffs games. Here’s from 18-22 with mahomes. 28,12,13,19, 21st.”

Please use previous stats I’ve provided. You claimed they were better 3 pages ago, are you admitting you were incorrect here? I’ve proven that factually you’ve been wrong about the 3 major defensive categories you’ve listed.

“They also didn't have Chris Jones, a far superior offensive line or defense nearly as good as later teams.”

Yes, dominating on offense helps the defense, and they still weren’t as good. They were also a better team at forcing turnovers from 13-17 vs 18-22. So again, wrong. Turnovers forced ranked by year

13-2nd
14-30th (3rd in ppg-TO didn’t correlate to points)
15-5th
16-1st
17-7th

18-9th
19-11th
20-14th
21-6th
22-22nd

I'm not lumping five years of defense under Smith and five years under Mahomes together, I'm talking about the years they won rings.

The Chiefs won a Super Bowl in 2019 the team scored the 5th most points and gave up the 7th fewest points total. That year they were pretty average in the regular season defensively on a points per drive average because they couldn't stop the run. The defense acquired Mike Pennel midseason and one of their best CB's Morris Claiborne returned after his suspension along with other injured defenders.

Pennel was the big signing because he instantly turned their run defense from a weakness into a strength. Chris Jones and Mike Pennel wreaked havoc in the postseason. They pushed the line back into Jimmy G's face on that final throw Jimmy missed Sanders, his center was in his lap. It starts in the trenches. In 2019 Mahomes and Tyreek actually missed games with injury, Matt Moore made two starts at QB. They also ran their offense through their RB's in the postseason. They were the best team in the playoffs, the defense wasn't amazing but it was the best Mahome's had played with in four years and were tied for 2nd in forced turnovers in the playoffs. The Chiefs offense was much better the year prior but the defense was worse. They lost.

Last season they gave up more points in the regular season, but their defense led the entire NFL postseason in forced turnovers and sacks. They won... with a little help from the Super Bowl grounds crew.

Watson isn’t mahomes, I’ve never brought up Watson. You telling me you think Watson is better than mahomes means nothing to me. We have strayed so far off topic at this point it’s comical

I brought up Watson because you said as long as we had a superior QB everything would be okay. I pointed out how he was better than Mahomes in 2020.... ever since then you've been dancing around this paradox, rather than explain how it was possible. You're still dancing... while I've answered your defense questions directly.

 

[All3Phases]

I'm not lumping five years of defense under Smith and five years under Mahomes together, I'm talking about the years they won rings.

The Chiefs won a Super Bowl in 2019 the team scored the 5th most points and gave up the 7th fewest points total. That year they were pretty average in the regular season defensively on a points per drive average because they couldn't stop the run. The defense acquired Mike Pennel midseason and one of their best CB's Morris Claiborne returned after his suspension along with other injured defenders.

Pennel was the big signing because he instantly turned their run defense from a weakness into a strength. Chris Jones and Mike Pennel wreaked havoc in the postseason. They pushed the line back into Jimmy G's face on that final throw Jimmy missed Sanders, his center was in his lap. It starts in the trenches. In 2019 Mahomes and Tyreek actually missed games with injury, Matt Moore made two starts at QB. They also ran their offense through their RB's in the postseason. They were the best team in the playoffs, the defense wasn't amazing but it was the best Mahome's had played with in four years and were tied for 2nd in forced turnovers in the playoffs. The Chiefs offense was much better the year prior but the defense was worse. They lost.

Last season they gave up more points in the regular season, but their defense led the entire NFL postseason in forced turnovers and sacks. They won... with a little help from the Super Bowl grounds crew.

Sure, why have 5 year samples with massively different results when you can nitpick a small portion of games! Genius! The defenses were better under Smith and won nothing. That’s the point and it was your point when trying to prove Mahomes had more defensive help. Which is why you said the below. Either way, you're taking 5 years of dominant defenses that won nothing in KC and eliminating them, while also using incredibly small samples and crediting the Chiefs Defense in winning the rings. You misspoke, without knowing the facts, its ok to admit. Over 5 fulls years of Smith, the Defenses were better, by a lot and couldnt win playoff games. That is the point

“They also didn't have Chris Jones, a far superior offensive line or defense nearly as good as later teams.”

I brought up Watson because you said as long as we had a superior QB everything would be okay. I pointed out how he was better than Mahomes in 2020.... ever since then you've been dancing around this paradox, rather than explain how it was possible. You're still dancing... while I've answered your defense questions directly.

Who’s “we” and when did I say that? If that’s the patriots, then sure…they still have a great coach right? I’ve praised the qb and coaching prowess of the chiefs as the most important facts in their success, who I give the most credit to for the Patriots dynasty. What does the Texans have to do with that? Nothing, keep flailing

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I mean, to be really really obvious about it, how the points clump is important too... that makes the metric W-L. Then "winning when it is most important" is the next step toward modeling the actual season. If someone invented a good metric for that, you'd be able to show that the NE Patriots were statistically good teams for all 6 SB winning years (and the unfortunate SB-losing years too.)

That's what cracks me up... you try to statistically show what player or team is "good" and the goal is easy to see just hard to model.

So what do we say? We say a player or team isn't statistically good, they just won despite that.

No, the metrics failed to model the reality. You don't get to say "shoulda" ever. What you can say is something like "that's a case of a team getting hot at the right time." But people get dumb and say that means they weren't really that good.

I mean, both those Gintz teams got their rings at our expense. They were better than us.

 

[1960Pats]

The Patriots usually are middle of the pack in cash spending and it can significantly fluctuate year to year while having little correlation to success.

The Rams lost their QB in 2021. That was a major factor and it had nothing to do with spending.

 

[1960Pats]

Good God, are the troll accounts on this board all the same people? There aren't this many dumb people are there?

I actually went through this thread. It's been one fan arguing with two others for about a week. I think one of them wanted it to be a discussion but once DaBruinz got involved it became a crapfest of personal insults. I'm still reading it though.

 

[1960Pats]

Are you guys under the impression that whomever claims victory last wins?

Will there be a last? This could go on forever.

 

[All3Phases]

Will there be a last? This could go on forever.

Its over when one person posts a Gif saying another lost

 

[1960Pats]

Its over when one person posts a Gif saying another lost

I think you're handling yourself very well.

There's a segment of fans here like Wozzy that can have a respectful conversation. I've had a few with him. And then there's DaBruinz, the King of Insults. The next time I have a conversation with him where he doesn't take a personal shot will be the first time.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Will there be a last? This could go on forever.

What gives you that impression?