Zappe vs Mac

[venecol]

3). Most Patriots fans shouldn't care who is behind center as long as the TEAM wins, I would hope. myself and others essentially have pleaded with folks here to adopt that perspective. Your refusal to entertain this fundamental notion is suspicious to say the least.

And here we have it. Anyone that refuses to think the same way as our self proclaimed forum obudsman is branded as suspicious. Lol man. It's a football forum not a cult.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

When the D plays that well, it's got to be winning "with" Zappe. I'd like to see him against a tough opponent... but I might not feel that way the day after.

It doesn't have to be. For example, in the Browns game they won, Jones led a 99-yard drive and threw multiple TDs.

 

[Pats2000]

He shows poor awareness of what defensive back to throw long balls to. They end up either in the hand of Pats receivers or incomplete. Advantage Jones. Maybe he can coach the rookie up.

Seriously, I don't think the causality you implied here (re: the line) washes, but it sure felt great to get out from under the wait on Mac to get in gear.

That said, who should we play? I have a Zappe preference, but not to replace Mac... only to play until Mac is 100% or until Zappe 100% starts to look cruddy... um unless Coach says, of course. Unlikely.

When the D plays that well, it's got to be winning "with" Zappe. I'd like to see him against a tough opponent... but I might not feel that way the day after.

If we get the idea they are both learning and growing, hey we have years with them both under cheap contracts. Great to have a capable backup who also has upside. I don't know much about the guy we just signed, Tulsi Gabbard or someone. Like someone here acting way too passionate on the point, I think I could live without the fourth guy, whether that is The Destroyah or Tulsi.

But yeah right now the 1 and 2 spots on that depth chart are where the action is. I think the default is that we roll with Jones fairly soon... albeit with a shorter leash.

One thing that BB has done well is accepted that competition is just part of this game, including re: roster spots. I agree with @Tunescribe it is just great watching these 2 kids make each other better... even if it pisses them off.

Yeah, bur zappe shows better awareness this year on the short and intermediate routes and better pocket presence. The line literally went from can't protect Mac or Hoyer for **** to looking great in the same game after Hoyer was knocked out. So yes, the causality washes.

 

[Tunescribe]

And here we have it. Anyone that refuses to think the same way as our self proclaimed forum obudsman is branded as suspicious. Lol man. It's a football forum not a cult.

You get so many things wrong I wonder if you do it intentionally (some you absolutely do). I am self-proclaimed ombudsman of ONLY the Tampa Bay Buccaneers thread you frequent, I've been explicit about that. As for the rest, why not quote the whole passage -- including the question I've asked three times now and you refuse to answer? You have twisted this out of context by omission.

So let's try once again, point blank, verbatim: why can't it be Mac AND Zappe instead of Mac vs. Zappe? What is to be served by attempting to pit one against the other when both deserve our support and encouragement? Your breathlessly white-knuckled campaign in this regard absolutely is suspicious, I'm not the only one who feels this way. Here is your chance to explain yourself and put that concern to rest.

 

[Betterthanmost]

 

[kennyb]

Double post

 

[kennyb]

You get so many things wrong I wonder if you do it intentionally (some you absolutely do). I am self-proclaimed ombudsman of ONLY the Tampa Bay Buccaneers thread you frequent, I've been explicit about that. As for the rest, why not quote the whole passage -- including the question I've asked three times now and you refuse to answer? You have twisted this out of context by omission.

So let's try once again, point blank, verbatim: why can't it be Mac AND Zappe instead of Mac vs. Zappe? What is to be served by attempting to pit one against the other when both deserve our support and encouragement? Your breathlessly white-knuckled campaign in this regard absolutely is suspicious, I'm not the only one who feels this way. Here is your chance to explain yourself and put that concern to rest.

Are you daft? It's jones VS zappe because only one can play qb at a time. That's what this discussion is about. Both deserve "support"? So one can't discuss pros and cons without running afoul of the thought police?

To even posit this question is "suspicious"? This reads like satire. "Here's your chance to 'explain yourself'"? You explain yourself. Who appointed you board nazi? Who are you to demand explanations? Or what?

 

[catent]

Alright, so in light of the news that Jones is likely to start once healthy, I will eat some crow. I still stand by my opinion that Zappe has been the better quarterback this season in the games he has played, both statistically and to the subjective eye-test. However, I acknowledge that when it comes to following the process - which BB is big on - along with long-term planning/hedging, and finally fundamental notions of fairness to Jones, I can understand the decision to give him a shot to respond.

A TLDR I posted below on the PatsPulpit comment section that I'm pasting here, analyzing my whole thoughts on the situation. Some folks will get a couple bullets in and start furiously typing to shoot Zappe down and/or defend Jones' honor, but please read the entirety of the post before getting too worked up.

-

• Zappe has been the better QB this season in the games he has played in. He has demonstrated traits intrinsic to the QB position that have little-to-nothing to do with level of competition: Eye usage, pocket presence, field vision, decision making, poise, footwork, accuracy, velocity/driving the ball.
• To my eye, peak Zappe over the past couple weeks looked better than anything I saw from Jones, this season or last. That said, 2-1/2 games is a much smaller sample size than 20+, which is a fair consideration.
• In a way that's difficult to fully articulate - but you know it when you see it - the offense has had much better timing and rhythm under Zappe. He has, to my eye, done a better job of getting the ball to the right players at the right time and utilizing the talent around him.
• Zappe has turned in the performances he has despite not having an offseason/training camp to prepare as the starter and without many starting reps. To me, his quality of play given the lack of preparation leads me to believe he may in fact have the more upside/potential.
• Jones - based on his time investment, the effort he's made to improve, and his greater experience - deserves the right to respond. To lose your job due to injury after the investment he has made would be unfortunate and could potentially send the wrong message, especially given the efforts he has made to improve/help the team, and the fact that he is a 2nd-year player while Zappe is a rookie. How Jones responds will be critical to his future.
• Allowing Jones to respond is the better long-term hedge, because naming Zappe the starter now, then having things implode and returning to Jones, is much more difficult than letting Jones respond and having to sit him for Zappe, should Jones not play well enough.
• BB made a comment that the two's performances are not being evaluated relative to each other, and that basically tells me that Jones is still viewed to be in a developmental window where they are giving him the chance to improve and evolve his game in his 2nd season, rather than directly comparing their quarterbacks' respective performances and making a decision based on that.
• Jones should not become the status quo starter again. He should get the opportunity to start and respond, and his job security should be contingent on his quality of play.
• The leash should be much shorter. Mistakes, screw-ups, turnovers, etc, should not be tolerated to the extent they were before.
• Not only should the leash be shorter, but the standard must be raised. Status quo Jones' performances should not be adequate to hold the job.
• Even if Jones is not turning the ball over and the team is winning, if he continues to have the same issues with decision making, shaky pocket presence/poise, lack of stepping into throws / lack of driving the ball, too many floaters (especially towards the boundary and over the middle), missing underneath defenders, dropping his eyes and squaring his hips when rushed, and struggles to operate the offense with good timing/rhythm, he should not hold the job by default.
• Jones must elevate his game, because his counterpart - thrust into a remarkably difficult position with exponentially less experience/preparation - just raised the bar.
• I'll give the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt in their approach to this situation, and I will give Jones some time to elevate his game. He deserves that right based on his work ethic and leadership - he is clearly very well liked in the locker-room and that is not lost on me.
• If Jones does not elevate his game beyond what we've seen so far, he should not be the starter for very long. If not this season, certainly a legitimate, head-to-head, 1-to-1 QB competition should occur next offseason should we continue to get status quo Jones.

 

[archstanton543]

Alright, so in light of the news that Jones is likely to start once healthy, I will eat some crow. I still stand by my opinion that Zappe has been the better quarterback this season in the games he has played, both statistically and to the subjective eye-test. However, I acknowledge that when it comes to following the process - which BB is big on - along with long-term planning/hedging, and finally fundamental notions of fairness to Jones, I can understand the decision to give him a shot to respond.

A TLDR I posted below on the PatsPulpit comment section that I'm pasting here, analyzing my whole thoughts on the situation. Some folks will get a couple bullets in and start furiously typing to shoot Zappe down and/or defend Jones' honor, but please read the entirety of the post before getting too worked up.

-

• Zappe has been the better QB this season in the games he has played in. He has demonstrated traits intrinsic to the QB position that have little-to-nothing to do with level of competition: Eye usage, pocket presence, field vision, decision making, poise, footwork, accuracy, velocity/driving the ball.
• To my eye, peak Zappe over the past couple weeks looked better than anything I saw from Jones, this season or last. That said, 2-1/2 games is a much smaller sample size than 20+, which is a fair consideration.
• In a way that's difficult to fully articulate - but you know it when you see it - the offense has had much better timing and rhythm under Zappe. He has, to my eye, done a better job of getting the ball to the right players at the right time and utilizing the talent around him.
• Zappe has turned in the performances he has despite not having an offseason/training camp to prepare as the starter and without many starting reps. To me, his quality of play given the lack of preparation leads me to believe he may in fact have the more upside/potential.
• Jones - based on his time investment, the effort he's made to improve, and his greater experience - deserves the right to respond. To lose your job due to injury after the investment he has made would be unfortunate and could potentially send the wrong message, especially given the efforts he has made to improve/help the team, and the fact that he is a 2nd-year player while Zappe is a rookie. How Jones responds will be critical to his future.
• Allowing Jones to respond is the better long-term hedge, because naming Zappe the starter now, then having things implode and returning to Jones, is much more difficult than letting Jones respond and having to sit him for Zappe, should Jones not play well enough.
• BB made a comment that the two's performances are not being evaluated relative to each other, and that basically tells me that Jones is still viewed to be in a developmental window where they are giving him the chance to improve and evolve his game in his 2nd season, rather than directly comparing their quarterbacks' respective performances and making a decision based on that.
• Jones should not become the status quo starter again. He should get the opportunity to start and respond, and his job security should be contingent on his quality of play.
• The leash should be much shorter. Mistakes, screw-ups, turnovers, etc, should not be tolerated to the extent they were before.
• Not only should the leash be shorter, but the standard must be raised. Status quo Jones' performances should not be adequate to hold the job.
• Even if Jones is not turning the ball over and the team is winning, if he continues to have the same issues with shaky pocket presence/poise, lack of stepping into throws / lack of driving the ball, too many floaters (especially towards the boundary and over the middle), missing underneath defenders, dropping his eyes and squaring his hips when rushed, and struggles to operate the offense with good timing/rhythm, he should not hold the job by default.
• Jones must elevate his game, because his counterpart - thrust into a remarkably difficult position with exponentially less experience/preparation - just raised the bar.
• I'll give the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt in their approach to this situation, and I will give Jones some time to elevate his game. He deserves that right based on his work ethic.
• If Jones does not elevate his game beyond what we've seen so far, he should not be the starter for very long. If not this season, certainly a legitimate, head-to-head, 1-to-1 QB competition should occur next offseason should we continue to get status quo Jones.

As a wise man once said, deserve's got nothing to do with it.

You've got two young guys vying for the same role. The job shouldn't be anyone's by default. Not at the stage of both of their careers. Hopefully, these last few weeks lights a fire under Jones' tuchus and he stops throwing INT's, starts stepping up in the pocket and going through his reads (something that Zappe has already done better than him this season).

 

[catent]

As a wise man once said, deserve's got nothing to do with it.

You've got two young guys vying for the same role. The job shouldn't be anyone's by default. Not at the stage of both of their careers. Hopefully, these last few weeks lights a fire under Jones' tuchus and he stops throwing INT's, stepping up in the pocket and going through his reads (something that Zappe has already done better than him this season).

I haven't seen this reported on or discussed much, so I'm speculating here, but I wonder if Jones' practice and game performance aren't aligning, in the sense he's lighting things up at practice but not able to do the same in games. Could possibly be that the team sees some discernable gap in ceiling/potential behind closed doors that isn't fully translating on game-day yet.

At some point you have to see it on a consistent basis in a live game, no mistake about that.

 

[Tunescribe]

Are you daft? It's jones VS zappe because only one can play qb at a time. That's what this discussion is about. Both deserve "support"? So one can't discuss pros and cons without running afoul of the thought police?

To even posit this question is "suspicious"? This reads like satire. "Here's your chance to 'explain yourself'"? You explain yourself. Who appointed you board nazi? Who are you to demand explanations? Or what?

No, I'm not "daft" and not the Nazi thought police. Your response is out of context to specific exchanges prompting the post you've taken issue with. You'll need to go back a few pages, it's fairly detailed. The gist of it, essentially, debunks contrived bases for arguing Zappe over Mac as premature and lacking in substance while challenging Venecol's motivations beyond that.

 

[upstater1]

Yeah, bur zappe shows better awareness this year on the short and intermediate routes and better pocket presence. The line literally went from can't protect Mac or Hoyer for **** to looking great in the same game after Hoyer was knocked out. So yes, the causality washes.

???

We were complementing the line for pass protection before Zappe jumped in. Mac was not sacked a lot. Not at all. And that's with Mac holding the ball for longer developing plays downfield. He actually lead the league in long completions.

 

[1960Pats]

Not everything is a conspiracy. Maybe they just feel Mac Jones is the better QB right now. If bill thought Mac Jones is done and zappe is better he would start him. He doesn't care if Mac is a 1st rounder or not.

Now, maybe giving up on your first round QB after 3 games into their 2nd season is just a ridiculous idea.

Plenty of the media have said as such.

Upon further review my original decision has been reversed. Since the QB play is adequate without Jones I'd make sure that Mac is back healthy before I put him back in.

I also think it's still too early to judge either QB. They're no Tom Brady but neither was Brady in 2001.

 

[Tunescribe]

Alright, so in light of the news that Jones is likely to start once healthy, I will eat some crow. I still stand by my opinion that Zappe has been the better quarterback this season in the games he has played, both statistically and to the subjective eye-test. However, I acknowledge that when it comes to following the process - which BB is big on - along with long-term planning/hedging, and finally fundamental notions of fairness to Jones, I can understand the decision to give him a shot to respond.

A TLDR I posted below on the PatsPulpit comment section that I'm pasting here, analyzing my whole thoughts on the situation. Some folks will get a couple bullets in and start furiously typing to shoot Zappe down and/or defend Jones' honor, but please read the entirety of the post before getting too worked up.

-

• Zappe has been the better QB this season in the games he has played in. He has demonstrated traits intrinsic to the QB position that have little-to-nothing to do with level of competition: Eye usage, pocket presence, field vision, decision making, poise, footwork, accuracy, velocity/driving the ball.
• To my eye, peak Zappe over the past couple weeks looked better than anything I saw from Jones, this season or last. That said, 2-1/2 games is a much smaller sample size than 20+, which is a fair consideration.
• In a way that's difficult to fully articulate - but you know it when you see it - the offense has had much better timing and rhythm under Zappe. He has, to my eye, done a better job of getting the ball to the right players at the right time and utilizing the talent around him.
• Zappe has turned in the performances he has despite not having an offseason/training camp to prepare as the starter and without many starting reps. To me, his quality of play given the lack of preparation leads me to believe he may in fact have the more upside/potential.
• Jones - based on his time investment, the effort he's made to improve, and his greater experience - deserves the right to respond. To lose your job due to injury after the investment he has made would be unfortunate and could potentially send the wrong message, especially given the efforts he has made to improve/help the team, and the fact that he is a 2nd-year player while Zappe is a rookie. How Jones responds will be critical to his future.
• Allowing Jones to respond is the better long-term hedge, because naming Zappe the starter now, then having things implode and returning to Jones, is much more difficult than letting Jones respond and having to sit him for Zappe, should Jones not play well enough.
• BB made a comment that the two's performances are not being evaluated relative to each other, and that basically tells me that Jones is still viewed to be in a developmental window where they are giving him the chance to improve and evolve his game in his 2nd season, rather than directly comparing their quarterbacks' respective performances and making a decision based on that.
• Jones should not become the status quo starter again. He should get the opportunity to start and respond, and his job security should be contingent on his quality of play.
• The leash should be much shorter. Mistakes, screw-ups, turnovers, etc, should not be tolerated to the extent they were before.
• Not only should the leash be shorter, but the standard must be raised. Status quo Jones' performances should not be adequate to hold the job.
• Even if Jones is not turning the ball over and the team is winning, if he continues to have the same issues with decision making, shaky pocket presence/poise, lack of stepping into throws / lack of driving the ball, too many floaters (especially towards the boundary and over the middle), missing underneath defenders, dropping his eyes and squaring his hips when rushed, and struggles to operate the offense with good timing/rhythm, he should not hold the job by default.
• Jones must elevate his game, because his counterpart - thrust into a remarkably difficult position with exponentially less experience/preparation - just raised the bar.
• I'll give the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt in their approach to this situation, and I will give Jones some time to elevate his game. He deserves that right based on his work ethic and leadership - he is clearly very well liked in the locker-room and that is not lost on me.
• If Jones does not elevate his game beyond what we've seen so far, he should not be the starter for very long. If not this season, certainly a legitimate, head-to-head, 1-to-1 QB competition should occur next offseason should we continue to get status quo Jones.

Seldom has the head of a pin been examined so exhaustively by someone with a rudimentary understanding of pins.

 

[RIpats88]

Upon further review my original decision has been reversed. Since the QB play is adequate without Jones I'd make sure that Mac is back healthy before I put him back in.

I also think it's still too early to judge either QB. They're no Tom Brady but neither was Brady in 2001.

Well that's all I and others saying Mac should still get a chance have been saying. It's too early to judge both QBs. No team gives up on their rookie QB after 3 games struggling into their second season. And no team makes assumptions after a QB performs well in 2 games. Maybe Mac looks the same when he comes back and zappe pushes him in practice and he ends up the starter. But it's too early to tell.

It's the zappe crew who are adamant Mac Jones should sit on the bench the rest of the season. And all of the teams improvement is due to zappe and Bill is making a mistake by bringing Mac Jones back.

 

[Tunescribe]

???

We were complementing the line for pass protection before Zappe jumped in. Mac was not sacked a lot. Not at all. And that's with Mac holding the ball for longer developing plays downfield. He actually lead the league in long completions.

You need to be careful addressing uninformed opinions with factual reasoning, it might spoil the narrative.

 

[Pats2000]

???

We were complementing the line for pass protection before Zappe jumped in. Mac was not sacked a lot. Not at all. And that's with Mac holding the ball for longer developing plays downfield. He actually lead the league in long completions.

Not against the Dolphins. I didn't find stats for thr other games. But I thought he was under pressure consistently and had happy feet a lot.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Now that we don't have a political forum, I feel it's unfair to the former rightist posters there to call people Nazis just because you disagree about football or board moderation, lest they complain that the comparison is unbecoming to Nazis.

Let's keep it apolitical.

 

[Pats2000]

You need to be careful addressing uninformed opinions with factual reasoning, it might spoil the narrative.

 

[Rob0729]

No offense to the OP, I don't get how anyone is putting any credence to this poll as meaning anything. The only votes that matter are Bill Belichick's and maybe Matt Patricia's and Joe Judge's. One of these guys could get 100% of the vote on this board and the other guy could end up the starter Monday night and beyond.

This Zappe/Jones debate is very similar to the debate about Davis Mills and the Pats drafting someone else at 15 or trading up to get Micha Parsons/Jones last year after Mills went 21 for 29 and 312 yards, 3 TDs, and 0 INTs vs the Pats. Mills ended up being pretty much an one hit wonder and will be a career back up after this year. Sure getting Parsons would have been great if the Pats were even able to trade up to get him. But Mac is still arguably the best QB from last year thus far although that crown isn't as good as we thought it would be.