Zappe vs Mac

[patfanken]

This nonsense is starting to drive me CRAZY.

Bailey Zappe played against the 2 WORST defenses in the NFL in the 2 games he started

Zappe was the Beneficiary of EIGHT TO's that's 8. Do you guys know how rare that is? And a plus 6. Mac was the beneficiary of 2 in 3 games. VERY hard to lose a game with 4 TO's in a game and add 1 for a score. I'd bet teams who have had 4 TO's in a game win more than 90% of their games. Prove me wrong (and save me the trouble of looking for it my self. )

Zappe was the beneficiary of EIGHT 4th down stops in those 2 games. I dare someone to try and find another team that had 8 fourth down stops over 2 consecutive games. I'm sure its happened before. Most things have, But I've never heard of it before. btw I wonder how many 4th down stops the Pats had prior to those 2 games, one...two? In those 2 games the Pats were 8-3 in 4th down situations. What's the league average for stops vs makes on 4th downs? Anyone know?

That is an incredible amount of good fortune for the Pats' offense AND needs to be considered when all the comparisons are being SELECTIVELY made in this made up Zappe/Jones "QB controversy"

SOOO much goes in to ANY QB's completion, yet for some reason when a QB completes a pass its because HE's great, never mind all the OLmen and backs that had to block, and all the receivers, and not just the guy who catches the ball, but all the other to did THEIR part to get the guy who caught the ball open. If any ONE of those 10 other guys screws up, then the play usually falls apart.

Zappe has done a great job in these 2 games. He has a good future in front of him, But right now he is STILL just a rookie who has done his job, yet has had a huge amount of good fortune to be playing against REALLY bad defenses and tremendous good fortune to have the defense play lights out and give him so many opportunities to get the ball in good field position. Literally the Pat defense turned the ball over to Zappe without a punt SIXTEEN times in 2 games. We might not see that many TO's and 4th down stops the rest of the season. Well.... that's probably a bit of hyperbole, but you get my point.

Mac Jones is going to be the starting QB (barring injury) for the rest of this year. BUT if Bailey Zappe looks like the best QB in the preseason next year, then I have no doubt that Bill will play the best QB. The last time we bit of a QB controversy was last preseason, when EVERY comment coming from the Pats had Cam Newton as the starting QB right up to the moment we cut him. Mac simply had beat him out. Not just in the preseason games but all the practices. Same with Tom and JG. Jimmy was good, but never showed he was BETTER than Tom. Simple as that.

If Zappe can show he's better than Jones, he';ll get the job, but it will take more than 2 games for him to determine it. If you are on the Zappe train, then you'll have to either wait until next year, OR hope for a season ending injury to Jones.

 

[venecol]

This nonsense is starting to drive me CRAZY.

Bailey Zappe played against the 2 WORST defenses in the NFL in the 2 games he started

Zappe was the Beneficiary of EIGHT TO's that's 8. Do you guys know how rare that is? And a plus 6. Mac was the beneficiary of 2 in 3 games. VERY hard to lose a game with 4 TO's in a game and add 1 for a score. I'd bet teams who have had 4 TO's in a game win more than 90% of their games. Prove me wrong (and save me the trouble of looking for it my self. )

Zappe was the beneficiary of EIGHT 4th down stops in those 2 games. I dare someone to try and find another team that had 8 fourth down stops over 2 consecutive games. I'm sure its happened before. Most things have, But I've never heard of it before. btw I wonder how many 4th down stops the Pats had prior to those 2 games, one...two? In those 2 games the Pats were 8-3 in 4th down situations. What's the league average for stops vs makes on 4th downs? Anyone know?

That is an incredible amount of good fortune for the Pats' offense AND needs to be considered when all the comparisons are being SELECTIVELY made in this made up Zappe/Jones "QB controversy"

SOOO much goes in to ANY QB's completion, yet for some reason when a QB completes a pass its because HE's great, never mind all the OLmen and backs that had to block, and all the receivers, and not just the guy who catches the ball, but all the other to did THEIR part to get the guy who caught the ball open. If any ONE of those 10 other guys screws up, then the play falls apart.

Zappe has done a great job in these 2 games. He has a good future in front of him, But right now he is STILL just a rookie who has done his job, yet has had a huge amount of good fortune to be playing against REALLY bad defenses and tremendous good fortune to have the defense play lights out and give him so many opportunities to get the ball in good field position. Literally the Pat defense turned the ball over to Zappe without a punt SIXTEEN times in 2 games. We might not see that many TO's and 4th down stops the rest of the season. Well.... that's probably a bit of hyperbole, but you get my point.

Mac Jones is going to be the starting QB (barring injury) for the rest of this year. BUT if Bailey Zappe looks like the best QB in the preseason next year, then I have no doubt that Bill will play the best QB. The last time we bit of a QB controversy was last preseason, when EVERY comment coming from the Pats had Cam Newton as the starting QB right up to the moment we cut him. Mac simply had beat him out. Not just in the preseason games but all the practices. Same with Tom and JG. Jimmy was good, but never showed he was BETTER than Tom. Simple as that.

If Zappe can show he's better than Jones, he';ll get the job, and it will take more than 2 games for him to determine it. If you are on the Zappe train, then you'll have to either wait until next year, OR hope for a season ending injury to Jones.

That's fine Ken but your take is a bit one sided.

I. On the Defensive competition they each faced:

Total Yds Allowed: NE #13
GB #5 Lost on the road
CLE #23 Won on the road
MIA #24 Lost on the road
BAL #25 Lost at Home
PIT #29 Won on the road
DET #32 Won at Home

Total Pts Allowed: NE #7
GB #15 Lost on the road
BAL #20 Lost at home
PIT #23 Won on the road
MIA #27 Lost on the road
CLE #30 Won on the road
DET #32 Won at Home

So the only Defense we've faced that is above average is GB, where they lost in OT by 3 despite a +1 TO diff. & 7 pts by the D w/ a rookie coming off the bench in his 1st NFL game at historic Lambeau. The rest of these teams all have pretty poor defenses. The Pats D is much better than all these teams (top 10 in Yds & Pts). But you play the teams on the schedule. Both QBs have played 3 games. Both have 1 home & 2 road games. One is 2-1 & the other is 1-2.

II. On the benefit of TOs:

I made a post in one of your threads about the effect on the scoreboard of not only takeaways (which is the only thing you point out), but also giveaways. The conclusion is the losses to both MIA & BAL were a direct result of our giveaways. In fact, despite the limited # of takeways during the first 3 games; the most important TO was in the PIT game (muffed punt) that gave us the win. The TOs in the last 2 games didn't really affect the outcome because they were both blow-outs (3-4 score games). Again, the only loss where we actually won the TO battle was against GB.

GM 1: Loss due to giveaways
GM 2: Win because of takeaway
GM 3: Loss due to giveaways
GM 4: Loss despite takeaways
GM 5: Win regardless of takeaways
GM 6: Win regardless of takeaways

Therefore, Mac benefited more from the defensive TOs than Zappe did since he got a win from the one at PIT & Zappe got a loss at GB despite the pick 6.

Content Post - "I am....inevitable" The power of TO's in the NFL

In quoting a guy who had the power to wipe out half the UNIVERSE, I was just overstating a fact that I have been carping about for years. In my humble opinion, at team's TO ratio (Plus/Minus) is the best indicator of how a team is doing. Disclaimer: NO single stat will tell the absolute true...

www.patsfans.com

 

[pats99]

Pressure in on. Mac better perform really well.

If Mac starts (it looks like he will week 7) doesn't necessarily means Bill thinks he is the better quarterback, maybe Bill is trying to find out.

In all phases of the game this team is very different than it was before the Green Bay game. But thats not really surprising for the Patriots, they are notorious for starting slow, and only sometime in late October does this team figure out what its good at, what it isn't and starts to have an identity. Its almost like he uses that first month like an extended preseason. And its not just the players its the play calling (remember get rid of Matt Patricia posts) its coaching its everything so I think we should take that into consideration when comparing the two qbs.

So its week 7, Mac Jones is healthy again, got a Chicago team that has a power ranking of 29 out of 32. A team we should beat probably more so than Detroit and Clevland and with either quarterback if they just manage the game.. If Chicago is true to form and Jones has a bad game I got to believe that this is going to be huge for Bill. I know for us fans this Bailey vs Zappe thing is going to explode even more than it already has. So maybe this is a good test for Mac.

I love watching Zappe, from the eye test he just looks better. I know its just two and half games. His poise in the pocket. climbs it when rush starts to get there, throwing on the run for first downs, all these things it "looks" like he does better than Mac. Most of all amazed how he has played under center with playaction. I was looking at a college season highlights when he was drafted and I could ot find one play where he was under center. Not one. Everything was shotgun.

 

[RIpats88]

To be fair, all this "eye test" of zappe looking better is just based on his three games vs mac's three games this season. I think people are forgetting how Mac looked just as good last year. It's possible Mac may have looked as good vs the Lions and Browns.

now, maybe Zappe ends up being better than Mac. But let's see how Mac looks coming back. The offense has changed somewhat. More play action, more screen passes, less 50-50 deep shots. More of "what worked last year." Also the OL seems to have played better.

if Mac is still a pick machine then it might be time to look at zappe.

 

[Tunescribe]

That's fine Ken but your take is a bit one sided.

I. On the Defensive competition they each faced:

Total Yds Allowed: NE #13
GB #5 Lost on the road
CLE #23 Won on the road
MIA #24 Lost on the road
BAL #25 Lost at Home
PIT #29 Won on the road
DET #32 Won at Home

Total Pts Allowed: NE #7
GB #15 Lost on the road
BAL #20 Lost at home
PIT #23 Won on the road
MIA #27 Lost on the road
CLE #30 Won on the road
DET #32 Won at Home

So the only Defense we've faced that is above average is GB, where they lost in OT by 3 despite a +1 TO diff. & 7 pts by the D w/ a rookie coming off the bench in his 1st NFL game at historic Lambeau. The rest of these teams all have pretty poor defenses. The Pats D is much better than all these teams (top 10 in Yds & Pts). But you play the teams on the schedule. Both QBs have played 3 games. Both have 1 home & 2 road games. One is 2-1 & the other is 1-2.

II. On the benefit of TOs:

I made a post in one of your threads about the effect on the scoreboard of not only takeaways (which is the only thing you point out), but also giveaways. The conclusion is the losses to both MIA & BAL were a direct result of our giveaways. In fact, despite the limited # of takeways during the first 3 games; the most important TO was in the PIT game (muffed punt) that gave us the win. The TOs in the last 2 games didn't really affect the outcome because they were both blow-outs (3-4 score games). Again, the only loss where we actually won the TO battle was against GB.

GM 1: Loss due to giveaways
GM 2: Win because of takeaway
GM 3: Loss due to giveaways
GM 4: Loss despite takeaways
GM 5: Win regardless of takeaways
GM 6: Win regardless of takeaways

Therefore, Mac benefited more from the defensive TOs than Zappe did since he got a win from the one at PIT & Zappe got a loss at GB despite the pick 6.

Content Post - "I am....inevitable" The power of TO's in the NFL

In quoting a guy who had the power to wipe out half the UNIVERSE, I was just overstating a fact that I have been carping about for years. In my humble opinion, at team's TO ratio (Plus/Minus) is the best indicator of how a team is doing. Disclaimer: NO single stat will tell the absolute true...

www.patsfans.com

Your anti-Mac campaign keeps reaching new levels of absurdity with each passing day, especially nonsense like this:

I. On the Defensive competition they each faced:

Total Yds Allowed: NE #13
GB #5 Lost on the road
CLE #23 Won on the road
MIA #24 Lost on the road
BAL #25 Lost at Home
PIT #29 Won on the road
DET #32 Won at Home

Total Pts Allowed: NE #7
GB #15 Lost on the road
BAL #20 Lost at home
PIT #23 Won on the road
MIA #27 Lost on the road
CLE #30 Won on the road
DET #32 Won at Home

Where are you getting these rankings? Are they rankings at the time New England played them or to-date season rankings? Either way they prove nothing, especially at this early point in the season omitting things like strength of opponents faced, key injuries, etc., etc.

Then you offer this laughably subjective tripe:

II. On the benefit of TOs:

GM 1: Loss due to giveaways
GM 2: Win because of takeaway
GM 3: Loss due to giveaways
GM 4: Loss despite takeaways
GM 5: Win regardless of takeaways
GM 6: Win regardless of takeaways

Your shortsighted cherrypicking here and elsewhere keeps ignoring the elephant in the room: the evolving state of New England's offense skewing various factors including turnovers. Mac and Zappe were asked to do different things at different times under vastly different circumstances; not all "giveaways" -- especially in this case -- can be considered directly attributable to the QB. Quarterbacks do not operate in a vacuum, it's not a matter of all things being equal.

Besides being antithetical to a team game like football, your Zappe > Mac argument has no cogent basis at this stage for an objectively apples-to-apples comparison. And you have the temerity to accuse @patfanken of being "a bit one-sided"? It's obvious what you're trying to do here, and why.

 

[Triumph]

To be fair, all this "eye test" of zappe looking better is just based on his three games vs mac's three games this season. I think people are forgetting how Mac looked just as good last year. It's possible Mac may have looked as good vs the Lions and Browns.

now, maybe Zappe ends up being better than Mac. But let's see how Mac looks coming back. The offense has changed somewhat. More play action, more screen passes, less 50-50 deep shots. More of "what worked last year." Also the OL seems to have played better.

if Mac is still a pick machine then it might be time to look at zappe.

Mac did not look good vs 3 Buffalo games and Indy.

Zappe needs to face better competition. I want to see him down by 2 scores, also in bad weather.

 

[denverpatsfan]

Mac did not look good vs 3 Buffalo games and Indy.

Zappe needs to face better competition. I want to see him down by 2 scores, also in bad weather.

What's the forecast for MN in Foxboro?

 

[Tunescribe]

What's the forecast for MN in Foxboro?

Rain.

 

[venecol]

Your anti-Mac campaign keeps reaching new levels of absurdity with each passing day, especially nonsense like this:

I. On the Defensive competition they each faced:

Total Yds Allowed: NE #13
GB #5 Lost on the road
CLE #23 Won on the road
MIA #24 Lost on the road
BAL #25 Lost at Home
PIT #29 Won on the road
DET #32 Won at Home

Total Pts Allowed: NE #7
GB #15 Lost on the road
BAL #20 Lost at home
PIT #23 Won on the road
MIA #27 Lost on the road
CLE #30 Won on the road
DET #32 Won at Home

Where are you getting these rankings? Are they rankings at the time New England played them or to-date season rankings? Either way they prove nothing, especially at this early point in the season omitting things like strength of opponents faced, key injuries, etc., etc.

Then you offer this laughably subjective tripe:

II. On the benefit of TOs:

GM 1: Loss due to giveaways
GM 2: Win because of takeaway
GM 3: Loss due to giveaways
GM 4: Loss despite takeaways
GM 5: Win regardless of takeaways
GM 6: Win regardless of takeaways

Your shortsighted cherrypicking here and elsewhere keeps ignoring the elephant in the room: the evolving state of New England's offense skewing various factors including turnovers. Mac and Zappe were asked to do different things at different times under vastly different circumstances; not all "giveaways" -- especially in this case -- can be considered directly attributable to the QB. Quarterbacks do not operate in a vacuum, it's not a matter of all things being equal.

Besides being antithetical to a team game like football, your Zappe > Mac argument has no cogent basis at this stage for an objectively apples-to-apples comparison. And you have the temerity to accuse @patfanken of being "a bit one-sided"? It's obvious what you're trying to do here, and why.

 

[venecol]

 

[Tunescribe]

View attachment 46502

Ah yes, your go-to response when backed into a corner. Time for something different, this meme is overused.

On the latter, some food for thought:

Here's background on your "triggered" image. It actually is a woman with a photoshopped mustache:

Triggered Feminist

Triggered Feminist, also known as Angry Feminist and Ficki Fiona, refers to a photoshop meme based around a still image of a woman with short hair and glasses appearing angry during a confrontation with supporters of Donald Trump. Online, images of the woman are often used in image macros...

knowyourmeme.com

Also:

Why "Triggered" Memes Aren't Funny

In a society that doesn't take mental health seriously, these memes just keep reinforcing the harmful stereotypes that are already present

www.theodysseyonline.com

 

[Triumph]

This nonsense is starting to drive me CRAZY.

Bailey Zappe played against the 2 WORST defenses in the NFL in the 2 games he started

Zappe was the Beneficiary of EIGHT TO's that's 8. Do you guys know how rare that is? And a plus 6. Mac was the beneficiary of 2 in 3 games. VERY hard to lose a game with 4 TO's in a game and add 1 for a score. I'd bet teams who have had 4 TO's in a game win more than 90% of their games. Prove me wrong (and save me the trouble of looking for it my self. )

Zappe was the beneficiary of EIGHT 4th down stops in those 2 games. I dare someone to try and find another team that had 8 fourth down stops over 2 consecutive games. I'm sure its happened before. Most things have, But I've never heard of it before. btw I wonder how many 4th down stops the Pats had prior to those 2 games, one...two? In those 2 games the Pats were 8-3 in 4th down situations. What's the league average for stops vs makes on 4th downs? Anyone know?

That is an incredible amount of good fortune for the Pats' offense AND needs to be considered when all the comparisons are being SELECTIVELY made in this made up Zappe/Jones "QB controversy"

SOOO much goes in to ANY QB's completion, yet for some reason when a QB completes a pass its because HE's great, never mind all the OLmen and backs that had to block, and all the receivers, and not just the guy who catches the ball, but all the other to did THEIR part to get the guy who caught the ball open. If any ONE of those 10 other guys screws up, then the play usually falls apart.

Zappe has done a great job in these 2 games. He has a good future in front of him, But right now he is STILL just a rookie who has done his job, yet has had a huge amount of good fortune to be playing against REALLY bad defenses and tremendous good fortune to have the defense play lights out and give him so many opportunities to get the ball in good field position. Literally the Pat defense turned the ball over to Zappe without a punt SIXTEEN times in 2 games. We might not see that many TO's and 4th down stops the rest of the season. Well.... that's probably a bit of hyperbole, but you get my point.

Mac Jones is going to be the starting QB (barring injury) for the rest of this year. BUT if Bailey Zappe looks like the best QB in the preseason next year, then I have no doubt that Bill will play the best QB. The last time we bit of a QB controversy was last preseason, when EVERY comment coming from the Pats had Cam Newton as the starting QB right up to the moment we cut him. Mac simply had beat him out. Not just in the preseason games but all the practices. Same with Tom and JG. Jimmy was good, but never showed he was BETTER than Tom. Simple as that.

If Zappe can show he's better than Jones, he';ll get the job, but it will take more than 2 games for him to determine it. If you are on the Zappe train, then you'll have to either wait until next year, OR hope for a season ending injury to Jones.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

https://y.yarn.co/7be26b33-afca-4926-9078-1a1a04b9d031_text.gif

This team spent seven years paying Tony Eason handsomely to repeatedly start (and lose) over astronomically better (and less paid) quarterbacks

Then they let Hall of Famer Doug Flutie spend his prime in Canada while they made Hugh Millen the Patriots' first million-dollar player

Then Drew Bledsoe was heaped with worship that Steve Grogan actually earned


...so yeah, I'm jaded

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Mac and Zappe were asked to do different things at different times under vastly different circumstances

...like Bledsoe and Brady were?

 

[Tunescribe]

...like Bledsoe and Brady were?

I was referring this this season thus far. Way too early to draw any parallels with Bledsoe-Brady.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

If Belichick brought in Mickey Mouse as offensive coordinator and Donald Duck as quarterbacks coach, Tom Brady would have focused harder to make it work. Without complaining or making excuses.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I was referring this this season thus far. Way too early to draw any parallels with Bledsoe-Brady.

Bledsoe got hurt in Week 2.

Jones got hurt in Week 3.

They weren't asking Brady to do what they expected from Bledsoe, just as they aren't expecting Zappe to do what they expected from Jones.

Brady had practically no playing time as a rookie.

 

[Dingleberry]

Ah yes, your go-to response when backed into a corner. Time for something different, this meme is overused.

On the latter, some food for thought:

Here's background on your "triggered" image. It actually is a woman with a photoshopped mustache:

Triggered Feminist

Triggered Feminist, also known as Angry Feminist and Ficki Fiona, refers to a photoshop meme based around a still image of a woman with short hair and glasses appearing angry during a confrontation with supporters of Donald Trump. Online, images of the woman are often used in image macros...

knowyourmeme.com

Also:

Why "Triggered" Memes Aren't Funny

In a society that doesn't take mental health seriously, these memes just keep reinforcing the harmful stereotypes that are already present

www.theodysseyonline.com

 

[Tunescribe]

Bledsoe got hurt in Week 2.

Jones got hurt in Week 3.

They weren't asking Brady to do what they expected from Bledsoe, just as they aren't expecting Zappe to do what they expected from Jones.

Brady had practically no playing time as a rookie.

Bledsoe was out something like six weeks, big difference -- there was no choice but to play Tom over a long stretch. Also don't forget that Brady outplayed Drew during the preseason and BB knew the changeover was imminent.

 

[upstater1]

Somehow we're reliving Tommy Hodson, Marc Wilson, Hugh Millen, Scott Secules and all the rest in this thread.