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Mac or Zappe

  • Zappe

  • Mac


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BTW, I still think the state of the offense and the schemes used for each QB and less about the competition is a big reason it is really difficult to compare the performances of the two QB. The o-line is playing much better over the last few weeks other than Wynn. They are no longer running outside zone runs that is not really this team's skill set which has made the run game far more effective and dominate and has allowed them to use the run to set up the pass and allow Zappe to use the play action much more which can slow down the pass rush and allow receivers to get separation more easily.

Until we see Jones in the offense that Zappe has been running or Zappe in offense Jones ran the first three weeks, there will never be an accurate comparison.
 
You’re just full of unsubstantiated opinions today!
 
This is exactly right. Zappe has much better pocket presence which in turn extends plays and allows receivers more time to get open. The line has been playing better but Zappe is very good at moving around in the pocket and avoiding sacks. He also sees the field better then Mac...or at least he has been better then Mac this year.
We're you asleep all last year when ALL of us were just giddy with Mac's "pocket presence, his ability to move in the pocket, and hit 2nd, and 3rd reads".

Unlike when Brady was the best qb in the 2001 preseason. Zappe hasn't out played Mac over a long period of months.0op
Alright, so in light of the news that Jones is likely to start once healthy, I will eat some crow. I still stand by my opinion that Zappe has been the better quarterback this season in the games he has played, both statistically and to the subjective eye-test. However, I acknowledge that when it comes to following the process - which BB is big on - along with long-term planning/hedging, and finally fundamental notions of fairness to Jones, I can understand the decision to give him a shot to respond.

A TLDR I posted below on the PatsPulpit comment section that I'm pasting here, analyzing my whole thoughts on the situation. Some folks will get a couple bullets in and start furiously typing to shoot Zappe down and/or defend Jones' honor, but please read the entirety of the post before getting too worked up.

-
  • Zappe has been the better QB this season in the games he has played in. He has demonstrated traits intrinsic to the QB position that have little-to-nothing to do with level of competition: Eye usage, pocket presence, field vision, decision making, poise, footwork, accuracy, velocity/driving the ball.
  • To my eye, peak Zappe over the past couple weeks looked better than anything I saw from Jones, this season or last. That said, 2-1/2 games is a much smaller sample size than 20+, which is a fair consideration.
  • In a way that's difficult to fully articulate - but you know it when you see it - the offense has had much better timing and rhythm under Zappe. He has, to my eye, done a better job of getting the ball to the right players at the right time and utilizing the talent around him.
  • Zappe has turned in the performances he has despite not having an offseason/training camp to prepare as the starter and without many starting reps. To me, his quality of play given the lack of preparation leads me to believe he may in fact have the more upside/potential.
  • Jones - based on his time investment, the effort he's made to improve, and his greater experience - deserves the right to respond. To lose your job due to injury after the investment he has made would be unfortunate and could potentially send the wrong message, especially given the efforts he has made to improve/help the team, and the fact that he is a 2nd-year player while Zappe is a rookie. How Jones responds will be critical to his future.
  • Allowing Jones to respond is the better long-term hedge, because naming Zappe the starter now, then having things implode and returning to Jones, is much more difficult than letting Jones respond and having to sit him for Zappe, should Jones not play well enough.
  • BB made a comment that the two's performances are not being evaluated relative to each other, and that basically tells me that Jones is still viewed to be in a developmental window where they are giving him the chance to improve and evolve his game in his 2nd season, rather than directly comparing their quarterbacks' respective performances and making a decision based on that.
  • Jones should not become the status quo starter again. He should get the opportunity to start and respond, and his job security should be contingent on his quality of play.
  • The leash should be much shorter. Mistakes, screw-ups, turnovers, etc, should not be tolerated to the extent they were before.
  • Not only should the leash be shorter, but the standard must be raised. Status quo Jones' performances should not be adequate to hold the job.
  • Even if Jones is not turning the ball over and the team is winning, if he continues to have the same issues with decision making, shaky pocket presence/poise, lack of stepping into throws / lack of driving the ball, too many floaters (especially towards the boundary and over the middle), missing underneath defenders, dropping his eyes and squaring his hips when rushed, and struggles to operate the offense with good timing/rhythm, he should not hold the job by default.
  • Jones must elevate his game, because his counterpart - thrust into a remarkably difficult position with exponentially less experience/preparation - just raised the bar.
  • I'll give the coaching staff the benefit of the doubt in their approach to this situation, and I will give Jones some time to elevate his game. He deserves that right based on his work ethic and leadership - he is clearly very well liked in the locker-room and that is not lost on me.
  • If Jones does not elevate his game beyond what we've seen so far, he should not be the starter for very long. If not this season, certainly a legitimate, head-to-head, 1-to-1 QB competition should occur next offseason should we continue to get status quo Jones.
Here's the thing DR, that I have with these comparisons. Those who want Zappe praise him for EXACTLY the same traits that we profusely praised Jones with last season. Has the Zappe party just chosen to have mass amnesia? Zappe did a fine job against 2 bad defenses, and had the benefit of defense that stopped their opponent SIXTEEN times without a punt or FG (8 TO's and 8 4th down stops - in other words CRAZY good numbers that won't be repeated the rest of this year).

Not to disparage Bailey, but just to get some REALITY thrown back into the equation. You made a powerful case for Zappe in the first part of your post. But it is a very INCOMPLETE case, ignoring last year completely and not considering other factors of those game that impacted Zappe and the team's performances

BTW- It kind of bothers me (and I indict myself by pointing this out) that this thread has far more activity that the Bears-Pats pregame thread where most of our attention SHOULD be, IMHO
 
You’re just full of unsubstantiated opinions today!
I said no offense, also show me where the line was giving Mac time to throw.

I posted a stat from at least week one where Mac wasn't under pressure on only 3% of his drop backs in game 1, that was worst in NFL. That's a 33% sample size of the games he played in. The line was not doing a great job. Please go on with your unsubstantiated posts about people's posts being unsubstantiated though.
 
We're you asleep all last year when ALL of us were just giddy with Mac's "pocket presence, his ability to move in the pocket, and hit 2nd, and 3rd reads".

Unlike when Brady was the best qb in the 2001 preseason. Zappe hasn't out played Mac over a long period of months.0op
I think Zappe has superior pocket presence and is much better at avoiding sacks then Mac this year.

Zuma said: "This is exactly right. Zappe has much better pocket presence which in turn extends plays and allows receivers more time to get open. The line has been playing better but Zappe is very good at moving around in the pocket and avoiding sacks. He also sees the field better then Mac...or at least he has been better then Mac this year."
 
We're you asleep all last year when ALL of us were just giddy with Mac's "pocket presence, his ability to move in the pocket, and hit 2nd, and 3rd reads".

Unlike when Brady was the best qb in the 2001 preseason. Zappe hasn't out played Mac over a long period of months.0op

Here's the thing DR, that I have with these comparisons. Those who want Zappe praise him for EXACTLY the same traits that we profusely praised Jones with last season. Has the Zappe party just chosen to have mass amnesia? Zappe did a fine job against 2 bad defenses, and had the benefit of defense that stopped their opponent SIXTEEN times without a punt or FG (8 TO's and 8 4th down stops - in other words CRAZY good numbers that won't be repeated the rest of this year).

Not to disparage Bailey, but just to get some REALITY thrown back into the equation. You made a powerful case for Zappe in the first part of your post. But it is a very INCOMPLETE case, ignoring last year completely and not considering other factors of those game that impacted Zappe and the team's performances

BTW- It kind of bothers me (and I indict myself by pointing this out) that this thread has far more activity that the Bears-Pats pregame thread where most of our attention SHOULD be, IMHO
I like Mac, see my sn. But zappe pocket movement in two games has been light years better than Mac's in any of his games.
 
I said no offense, also show me where the line was giving Mac time to throw.

I posted a stat from at least week one where Mac wasn't under pressure on only 3% of his drop backs in game 1, that was worst in NFL. That's a 33% sample size of the games he played in. The line was not doing a great job. Please go on with your unsubstantiated posts about people's posts being unsubstantiated though.

You're full of contradictions. You post a meme calling someone "loser" then say no offense. You acknowledge the Pats OL was playing poorly then accuse Mac Jones of having "happy feet." We'll talk more about the unsubstantiated stuff once your schizophrenia settles down.
 
You're full of contradictions. You post a meme calling someone "loser" then say no offense. You acknowledge the Pats OL was playing poorly then accuse Mac Jones of having "happy feet." We'll talk more about the unsubstantiated stuff once your schizophrenia settles down.
Lol, ok dude. If you wanted to have a real discussion, you would start by posting evidence why someone's assertion is incorrect. Instead you just say they are incorrect. No wonder why everyone is ragging on you.


Aldo I guess you've never seen Taladega Nights or Dumb and Dumber.
 
Weird stat that I just found on NextGenStats: Aggressiveness

2022
Mac: 19.6%
Zap: 8.6% (only Fields and TLaw have lower scores)

I don't know how those nerds figured that out, but that does make sense. Mac's last year was 15.4%.

Time to Throw stats not much different:
Mac: 2.74s
Zap: 2.87s

From Reference: Sack Percentage Index (100 is average, higher is better):
Mac: 108
Zap: 98

Edit:
Aggressiveness (AGG%)Aggressiveness tracks the amount of passing attempts a quarterback makes that are into tight coverage, where there is a defender within 1 yard or less of the receiver at the time of completion or incompletion. AGG is shown as a % of attempts into tight windows over all passing attempts.

I'm all for Mac to get the start. If he has a few more inexplicable Bad-Cam type of throws to the other laundry, then it's a pretty easy decision there.
 
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Lol, ok dude. If you wanted to have a real discussion, you would start by posting evidence why someone's assertion is incorrect. Instead you just say they are incorrect.

Your introductory post to me was a "loser" meme and now you're whining about "real discussion"? No, if you just read the thread you'd see I've already done that here multiple times, I weary of repeating myself for the benefit of people entering the discussion midstream. All of your "points" have been covered elsewhere excepting the one atop your head.

No wonder why everyone is ragging on you.

Not everyone.

Aldo I guess you've never seen Taladega Nights or Dumb and Dumber.

Who's Aldo? You have me confused with someone else. No, I haven't seen those movies but from what little I know they'd be up your alley.
 
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Not against the Dolphins. I didn't find stats for thr other games. But I thought he was under pressure consistently and had happy feet a lot.

I don't put much stock in analysis like this. I go by what my eyes tell me, and if a guy is getting lots of time or enough time to throw, that should good enough even if there are blitzers around him.

The thing is, Mac was looking downfield a lot, and was completing a lot of downfield throws. He's holding the ball longer than Zappe. He's waiting for plays to develop.

Also, consider the difference between throwing when you're 2 scores up and throwing when you're 2 scores down. You'll see a lot more open field 2 scores up.
 
Weird stat that I just found on NextGenStats: Aggressiveness

2022
Mac: 19.6%
Zap: 8.6% (only Fields and TLaw have lower scores)

I don't know how those nerds figured that out, but that does make sense. Mac's last year was 15.4%.

Time to Throw stats not much different:
Mac: 2.74s
Zap: 2.87s

From Reference: Sack Percentage Index (100 is average, higher is better):
Mac: 108
Zap: 98

Edit:
Aggressiveness (AGG%)Aggressiveness tracks the amount of passing attempts a quarterback makes that are into tight coverage, where there is a defender within 1 yard or less of the receiver at the time of completion or incompletion. AGG is shown as a % of attempts into tight windows over all passing attempts.

I'm all for Mac to get the start. If he has a few more inexplicable Bad-Cam type of throws to the other laundry, then it's a pretty easy decision there.

Actually, the time to throw is more significant than you are stating. The difference in time to throw from the fastest QB (Tom Brady at 2.42s) and the slowest to throw (Zach Wilson at 3.2s) is only .6 seconds. So .13s is not an insignificant difference. Between Jones and Zappe, there are 13 QBs faster than Zappe and slower than Jones.

On a single play, .13s isn't significant at all. As an average, it has a decent significance in difference. Especially when they had Zappe throwing more short, safe quick throws with Jones being asked to make more plays down the field that usually requires the QB to hold onto the ball a bit longer.
 
An ode to Bailey Zappe based on Tom Petty’s, American Girl. (This is meant as a joke, btw).

Well, he was a Texas boy
Raised as a quarterback
He couldn't help thinkin'
That there was a little more life in that starting run

After all it was only two games
Played against the weakest of teams
And if Belichick had to sit Zappe
He had a promise to Mac he was gonna keep

O yeah, all right
Take it easy, Bailey
Make it last all night
He was, the starting QB

Well, it was kind of cold that night
Belichick stood alone on his balcony
Yeah, he could hear the cars roll by
Out on the 95, like chants of “ZAPPE!”

And for one desperate moment
There Mac crept back in his memory
God it's so painful when something that's so close
Is still so far out of reach

O yeah, all right
Take it easy, Bailey
Make it last all night
He was, the starting QB
 
Actually, the time to throw is more significant than you are stating. The difference in time to throw from the fastest QB (Tom Brady at 2.42s) and the slowest to throw (Zach Wilson at 3.2s) is only .6 seconds. So .13s is not an insignificant difference. Between Jones and Zappe, there are 13 QBs faster than Zappe and slower than Jones.

On a single play, .13s isn't significant at all. As an average, it has a decent significance in difference. Especially when they had Zappe throwing more short, safe quick throws with Jones being asked to make more plays down the field that usually requires the QB to hold onto the ball a bit longer.
.13s would mean about a half a step or a pinch more for an incoming rusher, so you're probably right in that it's not an insignificant amount of extra time.
 
Your introductory post to me was a "loser" meme and now you're whining about "real discussion"? No, if you just read the thread you'd see I've already done that here multiple times, I weary of repeating myself for the benefit of people entering the discussion midstream. All of your "points" have been covered elsewhere excepting the one atop your head.



Not everyone.



Who's Aldo? You have me confused with someone else. No, I haven't seen those movies but from what little I know they'd be up your alley.
I was responding to your trope in this thread

Post in thread 'Zappe vs Mac' Zappe vs Mac

Which was a response to something I said. So yeah, you started with some bs. Post some facts to back up what you're saying or go back into your hole.
 
I want a win Monday night and the rest of the schedule. So Bill Bellechick, you are the Head Coach, do what is best to accomplish this task. If that means starting Mac Jones over Bailey Zappe then that is what should happen.

Go Patriots
 
I always say go with the hot hand but in this case I think the Patriots defense can and will win this game for the Pats. Therefore it would be a good game to start Mac Jones so he can get some live game experience after being off so long and to let him get his timing down. Let the defense win the game
 
Yada Yada Yada.
We can do without the Novel.

Thanks
 
If the roles were reversed, the odds are that Mac Jones would not be playing as well as Zappe.

BZ is a natural. Jones is a well tutored journey man.
 
Bledsoe was out something like six weeks, big difference -- there was no choice but to play Tom over a long stretch. Also don't forget that Brady outplayed Drew during the preseason and BB knew the changeover was imminent.
OK but you and Ken won't complain when Bailey hoists our seventh Lombardi trophy right?
 
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