Wilfork or Talib...who do you pay after the season?

[patchick]

i love wilfork he is what i want every patriot to be

I think we're all right there with you. Vince is a lovable, community-minded family man; a team leader who is always ready to take young players under his wing; a heck of a nasty SOB on the football field. Nobody better.

He's also a 350-lb. man who's about to turn 32 with a torn achilles tendon.

 

[patchick]

That's what I was hoping you'd clarify. Contracts are beyond my ken.

But if that's the case, why not keep him through camp and see what he still has to offer? Talib franchise money I suppose possibly.

Yeah, I think the questions are what else you could potentially do with that $7.5 million, and how you approach the DT position while you wait to find out what you have in Wilfork.

Re the latter, I have to think that they'll focus on DT in the draft regardless. IF Armstead were to come on solidly in the second half of this season, they have Kelly for another year, and I think Chris Jones looks like he could be solid long-term depth...there is some flexibility.

 

[kennyb]

Yes vested vets on for the first week have their contract guaranteed for that year. Meaning there's no benefit to cutting him after week one.

Best case is the rookies and AJ Francis and Armstead look good, making Wilfork dispensable. They save about 8M in cap space which is huge. They'll have a better idea of how his Achilles is in 6-9 months but if it's going to affect him adversely, I doubt they'll pay a 33 year old DT with a bad ankle 8M in salary. No matter how much they like him.

Maybe the rookie from Rutgers can fill in for Talib. Then they can take the savings and sign McCourty and a FA TE if there is such a thing.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Yeah...good thing you are just a fan.

Besides, in the future, Vince will not be playing 80-90 percent of snaps.

yep, thank god you run the team.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

BB has always valued and invested in a strong core. That's why Mayo, Mankins, and Wilfork have gotten lots of money. He also knows how to draft those guys. It's not like we've been letting JJ Watt and JPP walk in favor of resigning those other guys.

Philosophically speaking, BB would choose a guy in the trenches over a CB, and he basically did make that choice by paying Seymour instead of sending money Ty Law's way (though there were many forces at work in that situation). But BB won't have to make that choice with Vince. Vince already has his signing bonus, and if I had to guess, I'd say Vince would do a cap friendly extension. Vince may have to make a huge decision in the near future though. He can resign an make a few extra million, or he could call it quits and start working toward a healthier weight like the reports were saying that the Pats wanted Kyle Love to do. The big man himself has admitted a less than stellar life expectancy among the men in his family.

P.S. Vince isn't weighing in 400 lbs like some are claiming. Terrence Cody, at his heaviest, was like 375 with a couple inches on Vince.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

Also, I think Talib getting the tag is pretty likely. I don't think a long term deal is all that likely, and BB knows how valuable Talib is to our cause defensively.

 

[Jimke]

Also, I think Talib getting the tag is pretty likely. I don't think a long term deal is all that likely, and BB knows how valuable Talib is to our cause defensively.

I don't know if the Patriots can apply the franchise tag. Not using the
tag may have been part of the one year deal.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

I don't know if the Patriots can apply the franchise tag. Not using the
tag may have been part of the one year deal.

I don't remember hearing about verbiage in the contract. Typically, players don't want to keep getting tagged, but they don't sneeze at the guaranteed tag numbers, particularly with the number being as high as the CB number is. The tag would be comparable to a signing bonus in a long term deal. If you're willing to fork out big bucks two years in a row with two tags, you should be willing to sign a three or four year deal. In fact, you'd probably be giving less guaranteed money in a long term deal vs. a tag twice in a row.

 

[randomk1]

Talib. Younger and way bigger impact with the way he is playing right now.

Plus there's the swagger

 

[Sciz]

Talib. Younger and way bigger impact with the way he is playing right now.

Plus there's the swagger

Probably not the right word to use when Bill "You can take your swagger and shove it up your @$$" Belichick is in charge of all these decisions.

 

[Brady6]

I think we're all right there with you. Vince is a lovable, community-minded family man; a team leader who is always ready to take young players under his wing; a heck of a nasty SOB on the football field. Nobody better.

He's also a 350-lb. man who's about to turn 32 with a torn achilles tendon.

Fortunately this is not a decision we have make, Wilfork is signed through the end of 2014 and given his age and his returning from a major injury it would not make sense to extend him prematurely.

I personally would rather pay more for Wilfork over a 2-3 period if he returns next season and is once again elite than I would want to potentially overpay for him if he returns as a lesser player or this injury is the beginning of a older heavier defensive lineman who's body is breaking down.

In regards to Talib unless he signed a team friendly long term deal I would franchise him before entering into a bidding war that required a ransom payout, I have no problem with them paying top dollar for Talib in 2014 I am just not sure I'd want to commit to it over a long period just yet anyway.

 

[ivanvamp]

Wes Welker all over again. The player who plays like a HOFer for the Patriots gets thrown under the bus and the shiny new toy gets all the polish.

This debate is really going to suck.

The problem is that these debates have to happen, at least among those in the Patriots' front office. There's only so much money to go around, and so they have to make these kinds of tough decisions. So we might as well have them too.

I do not know what the right answer is. Vince has been an absolute stud his entire career. He's been consistently great, a super-reliable player, a team leader, everything you could possibly want in a player.

But Talib is also a special talent that fills a huge need that also happens to be at a spot that's much more difficult to fill, and that, in today's NFL, may be more important.

I don't see this as a Welker/Amendola issue at all. One, both players are Patriots. Two, they play completely different positions. And three, one is dealing with a *major* injury that could greatly impact the calculation here.

Other than a couple of knuckleheads, I don't think any real thinking Patriots' fan would even consider dissing Wilfork or "throw him under the bus". We all know how great he is.

 

[BradyFTW!]

You're at 3.6 already, and you still have to fill the position. If Wilfork is healthy, you bring him back.

You keep bringing up the $3.6M dead cap figure, but it has no real relevance to the decision. It only applies indirectly, in that you're now asking "is his production worth $8M in cap space" rather than "is his production worth $11.6M in cap space?" Belichick has demonstrated over and over again that he fully understands sunk costs and that he's a fairly rational actor when dealing with them.

Given that I already noted the "if healthy" aspect, making that a non-issue in terms of any disagreement .... every single bit of it.

Every argument that you've taken issue with in this thread has centered around the fact that it'll be extremely unlikely to even know if Wilfork's healthy by the time this decision has to be made. at the time that the decision has to be made, Wilfork will not be 100% healthy. Period. You're assuming certainty in a situation where there simply won't be any, which makes your point completely irrelevant to the actual conversation that's happening. The Patriots will be either:

A) Taking a leap of faith that he can return to pre-injury form
B) Cutting him and choosing to invest that $8M elsewhere, in a less risky asset, or
C) Attempting to renegotiate/extend his contract at a lower rate to reflect the risk involved moving forward, as well as the fact that they'll likely be looking to use him less going forward.

I think it'll be C. If C fails, I think that B is a more likely outcome than A. To claim that anything other than A is ridiculous is pretty obtuse and basically just ignores years of history relating to how the Patriots deal with injured veterans, how they deal with players who are playing at high cap figures and reduced effectiveness, how they regard sunk costs, their own faith in their ability to turn over a position in a single year, the history of large men recovering from foot injuries, and the general prognosis for recovering from Achilles injuries in general.

 

[kennyb]

I think by the end of training camp they'll know if Wilfork will be 100% or not. If he's not 100% at that time, you have to cut or restructure.

If the Achilles isn't healed
Wilfork must leave the field.

If the ankle is still bum
Wilfork not in the scrum

8M cost is too high
For a 33 year old injured guy

 

[Huckleberry1]

The problem is that these debates have to happen, at least among those in the Patriots' front office. There's only so much money to go around, and so they have to make these kinds of tough decisions. So we might as well have them too.

I do not know what the right answer is. Vince has been an absolute stud his entire career. He's been consistently great, a super-reliable player, a team leader, everything you could possibly want in a player.

But Talib is also a special talent that fills a huge need that also happens to be at a spot that's much more difficult to fill, and that, in today's NFL, may be more important.

I don't see this as a Welker/Amendola issue at all. One, both players are Patriots. Two, they play completely different positions. And three, one is dealing with a *major* injury that could greatly impact the calculation here.

Other than a couple of knuckleheads, I don't think any real thinking Patriots' fan would even consider dissing Wilfork or "throw him under the bus". We all know how great he is.

Unfortunately I think there are a good number of Patriot fans who will throw Wilfork under the bus, just as they did Welker. Personally it has become a real issue for me in following this team as i really hate fickle and respect loyalty to those who give their best. I am not sure if it is because of Madden and fantasy football but everyone has become a GM and the willingness of fans to turn on the best players on their respective teams has gotten worse and worse over the years, and imo that sucks.

On the other hand that is a separate issue from what the team has to do, and no-one is more cold hearted about these matters than Belichick, which is a good thing for Patriot fans as you really have to be that cold blooded to always out the team ahead of personal loyalties. I',m a Patriots fan, and I love what Brady, Welker, Wilfork, Faulk, Brown, bruschi, Mcginest, vrabel etc... have all given to this team, and as i said in another thread it's a good thing I don't make the decisions because they would have gotten old and bad if I did. They need to make football decisions in the most calculating way to keep the team competitive. On the other hand I really don't understand the willingness of aq large number of fans to flat out turn on players as soon as they turn 30, get injured, or have their contract come up. All of a sudden a great players sucks, is washed up, or they are greedy,m and imo it's almost all crap. It bugs the sh.t out of me to see great players get trashed and usually draws a response from me as a result.

 

[kennyb]

Remember the movie "Logan's Run" (and the TV series too, which I liked a lot)? They had to kill everyone at age 30 to keep the population manageable.

Well the NFL is a little bit like that.

 

[Huckleberry1]

The problem is that these debates have to happen, at least among those in the Patriots' front office. There's only so much money to go around, and so they have to make these kinds of tough decisions. So we might as well have them too.

I do not know what the right answer is. Vince has been an absolute stud his entire career. He's been consistently great, a super-reliable player, a team leader, everything you could possibly want in a player.

But Talib is also a special talent that fills a huge need that also happens to be at a spot that's much more difficult to fill, and that, in today's NFL, may be more important.

I don't see this as a Welker/Amendola issue at all. One, both players are Patriots. Two, they play completely different positions. And three, one is dealing with a *major* injury that could greatly impact the calculation here.

Other than a couple of knuckleheads, I don't think any real thinking Patriots' fan would even consider dissing Wilfork or "throw him under the bus". We all know how great he is.

I don't see the linkage between Talib and Wilfork, I see it between Talib and McCourty as I think they look at expenditures in relationships to units and prioritize those closer to the ball, which is why they usually don't go high at the outside skill positions. The more this season goes on and Talib plays like Revis the more likely the tag becomes. I think they are more likely to spend 10 million for one year than pay him market value long term.

 

[Ring 6]

I think Wilfork's next deal is going to be easy for NE to afford, Talib is the question mark. As for what Wilfork "used to be," he has never dropped off that I was aware of, so saying he is diminished is based only upon his injury. If they can reduce their cap hit and extend him i am all for it, but other than that i say that they should let him play next year and try to get a new deal done during it. I don't think the Talib contract is related to it, but a McCourty deal might be.

I am talking about during the contract, not at the beginning of it only. Clearly Vince will not be the player for the duration of the contract that he has been up until now.
Also, of course the injury is likely to diminish his play going forward.

 

[Sangreal95]

Has anybody stopped to think that what if the Patriots keep fielding a top 10 or even top 5 defense without Wilfork? Won't that play a factor into whether or not the front office sees money to pay Talib in Wilfork's 2014 salary?

 

[Brady6]

People said the same thing about Vrabel, McGinest, Seymour, Law, Welker and Moss too. The bottom line is that if his performance doesn't measure up to what they stand to save by cutting him, he will be asked to restructure and cut if he doesn't. And with that figure being $8M next year, it's an interesting proposition. Far from a guarantee, given the nature of his injury.

I would debate people saying that about any of the players you named and especially not Randy Moss.

The difference between Wilfork and all of the players you named is Wilfork is a team first guy the rest either had their rings and wanted to get paid or were just straight up diva’s, either way using their exit form New England as a potential measuring stick for Wilfork’s not a good comparison in my opinion.