The O-Line’s performance against Atlanta in SB

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

Cannon was on a DT?
That surprises me. Are you going from memory or did you go back to the tape?
I distinctly remember him rag dolling mason on one of the sacks.

Lots of stunts on that side of the line, putting Cannon on Jarrett. That being said, the 3rd sack was Mason getting abused and not Andrews.

Regards,
Chris

 

[RobertWeathers]

Cannon was on a DT?
That surprises me. Are you going from memory or did you go back to the tape?
I distinctly remember him rag dolling mason on one of the sacks.

Nope youtube. Originally I thought it was Shaq who was roasted but it was not. Might have been confusion on the stunting and assignments. Cannon looked late in picking him up.



Andrews and Cannon are good players. My impression is overall Jarrett just played a great, great game.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Blount's fumble is no one's fault. The defense made a great play on the ball to rip it away from him. If Blount was as careless as you say Bill would have benched him.

Or not re-signed? More carries and touches for james white and dion lewis after the fact?

 

[Ring 6]

Nope youtube. Originally I thought it was Shaq who was roasted but it was not. Might have been confusion on the stunting and assignments. Cannon looked late in picking him up.



Andrews and Cannon are good players. My impression is overall Jarrett just played a great, great game.

3rd one was 100% mason. He missed him. Andrews was uncovered and came to help but was late mostly because mason whiffed and didn't even slow him down.

Agree first was coverage and that was one hell of a burst and effort by a DT on a roll stunt.
Second one was odd. Cannon had him controlled and he just slipped away.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Why is someone resuscitating a six month old game-day thread?

Training camp is just beginning, we posters need to put in a lot of time, effort, and practice to get into game-day thread shape.

 

[Ring 6]

Lots of stunts on that side of the line, putting Cannon on Jarrett. That being said, the 3rd sack was Mason getting abused and not Andrews.

Regards,
Chris

None were Andrews which was what this thread seemed certain of.
That was my point of saying look rather than assume.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I dont BLAME any 2016 Patriot for anything.
They were perfect.
The ultimate goal is solely to win the SB by whatever means necessary.
They did that
They were 1-0 in achieving the result that is the only reason you play games and all of the other teams were 0-31.

Nothing they could have done, not done or done differently could have produced a better result.

34-28 or 99-0 in the SB is the exact same thing. There are only 2 possibilities, win or lose.

Andy, I agree with you that the goal is to win the SB. But that doesn't mean certain players or ex-players can't be criticized for their performance in a SB winning year. Belichick clearly thought the running game needed to be improved and brought in gillislee and burkhead and let blount go. Same thing with Gostkowski and his struggles in the SB as well as during the regular season. I'll think he'll be fine, but the goal is to get better every year.

 

[BobDigital]

Obviously the OL play was a problem that game and as people here already pointed out a lot of it stemmed from Andrews. He is generally considered their worst OL starter due to his talent limitations and it showed that game and he faced a far more physically talented player.

I am concerned about the OL this year of course and think besides injuries if there is a reason the Pats don't win the SB my guess is the OL will be a the top of the list. That said there are reasons to be hopeful it will improve. The same 5 guys are together and the 3 IOL are all young and they have the best OL coach on earth.

My guess is whatever Andrews was doing wrong Scar will help show him how to correct it. While i still feel his talent limitations may be an issue I doubt technique improves when showed why this all happened are not possible. I am certain they are and I would hope it has been a focus of his. It probably has.

Also the guards beside him have a good chance to improve and help him out. Especially Thuney. My hope is Thuney makes a push for the probowl this year and a big 2nd year jump. Such a thing is possible but even if not if he improves a good deal (and he should) he can take some pressure off Andrews. Mason can improve as well but being a 3rd year player who has already maxed out a lot physically at this point it isn't much likely but a few mental things might be able to be cleaned up. So while it is something I have my eye on it is fair to say there is no reason the OL should be worse and every reason to think it will improve.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, I agree with you that the goal is to win the SB. But that doesn't mean certain players or ex-players can't be criticized for their performance in a SB winning year. Belichick clearly thought the running game needed to be improved and brought in gillislee and burkhead and let blount go. Same thing with Gostkowski's struggles in the SB as well as during the regular season. The goal is to get better every year.

We won the SB. We couldn't do any more than win the SB

If you want to assess players as to how they will play in 2017 and going forward, how they will fit together, what strengths will overcome what weaknesses that is fine.

But rehashing the play in the SB, calling it embarrassing, unacceptable etc is ludicrous. Every player played well enough to win the SB because we win the SB. There is nothing to critique about that game.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

3rd one was 100% mason. He missed him. Andrews was uncovered and came to help but was late mostly because mason whiffed and didn't even slow him down.

Agree first was coverage and that was one hell of a burst and effort by a DT on a roll stunt.
Second one was odd. Cannon had him controlled and he just slipped away.

On the almost-safety to start the game tying drive, Cannon got beat again on a Jarrett stunt. Cannon was money on Beasley when Atlanta didn't stunt, but both he and Mason struggled plenty of times with the stunts.

I suspect Quinn expected the much-improved Cannon would hold up well in straight blocking situations, so he wanted to generate pressure by confusing the blocking assignments. I also suspect he thought he could exploit Mason with the switching assignments as young Mason' s pedigree is in run blocking rather than complex NFL pass protection schemes. I give Quinn a lot of credit with this plan.

Regards,
Chris

 

[Ring 6]

Obviously the OL play was a problem that game and as people here already pointed out a lot of it stemmed from Andrews. He is generally considered their worst OL starter due to his talent limitations and it showed that game and he faced a far more physically talented player.

What stemmed from Andrews?
He was not responsible for any of jarrets sacks contrary to what people want to make up so please describe what his failures were.

I am concerned about the OL this year of course and think besides injuries if there is a reason the Pats don't win the SB my guess is the OL will be a the top of the list. That said there are reasons to be hopeful it will improve. The same 5 guys are together and the 3 IOL are all young and they have the best OL coach on earth.

The ol wasn't the reason for a single loss last year.

My guess is whatever Andrews was doing wrong Scar will help show him how to correct it. While i still feel his talent limitations may be an issue I doubt technique improves when showed why this all happened are not possible. I am certain they are and I would hope it has been a focus of his. It probably has.

Wait you blame him but don't know what he did poorly? Am I misunderstanding you?

Also the guards beside him have a good chance to improve and help him out. Especially Thuney. My hope is Thuney makes a push for the probowl this year and a big 2nd year jump. Such a thing is possible but even if not if he improves a good deal (and he should) he can take some pressure off Andrews. Mason can improve as well but being a 3rd year player who has already maxed out a lot physically at this point it isn't much likely but a few mental things might be able to be cleaned up. So while it is something I have my eye on it is fair to say there is no reason the OL should be worse and every reason to think it will improve.

Mental and refining technique are the primary ways ol improve. It rarely had anything to do with physical improvement.

 

[Ring 6]

On the almost-safety to start the game tying drive, Cannon got beat again on a Jarrett stunt. Cannon was money on Beasley when Atlanta didn't stunt, but both he and Mason struggled plenty of times with the stunts.

I suspect Quinn expected the much-improved Cannon would hold up well in straight blocking situations, so he wanted to generate pressure by confusing the blocking assignments. I also suspect he thought he could exploit Mason with the switching assignments as young Mason' s pedigree is in run blocking rather than complex NFL pass protection schemes. I give Quinn a lot of credit with this plan.

Regards,
Chris

It's interesting because stunting your DL says you devalue getting there quickly to try to get there at all which is counter intuitive when facing Brady.
I imagine film study probably showed the patriots didn't face a lot of stunts (except on 3rd down) all season so they may be less prepared for it.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

None were Andrews which was what this thread seemed certain of.
That was my point of saying look rather than assume.

Yeah, I called out the Andrews blame earlier in the thread as well. In one of my rewatches of the game, I watched just the OL and the guys who struggled the most were Solder (primarily 1st half, but it was bad), Mason (bull rushes and stunts) and Cannon (on stunts only). Andrews often helped Thuney with the other DT as Atlanta only blitzed twice the whole game. There were a few plays where Andrews may not have offered help correctly, but it wasn't like he was the weak link that game.

Regards,
Chris

 

[Ring 6]

Yeah, I called out the Andrews blame earlier in the thread as well. In one of my rewatches of the game, I watched just the OL and the guys who struggled the most were Solder (primarily 1st half, but it was bad), Mason (bull rushes and stunts) and Cannon (on stunts only). Andrews often helped Thuney with the other DT as Atlanta only blitzed twice the whole game. There were a few plays where Andrews may not have offered help correctly, but it wasn't like he was the weak link that game.

Regards,
Chris

You could say he failed on help on the 3rd jarret sack but it's hard to fault help for getting there late when the guy assigned to block him whiffed.
You can't assume a whiff when you plan your help because that puts you out of position if the G does anything at all.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Grady Jarrett had 3 sacks in the whole regular season. He had 3 in the postseason, all against us! Would have probably been MVP had they won. Come on now.

Grady Jarrett

James White

Career rushing TDs before Super Bowl: 2

Rushing TDs in Super Bowl: 2

He had 2 rushing TDs in his whole career. He had 2 in the postseason, all against Atlanta! Would have probably been MVP if it wasn't for Brady's numbers. Come on now.

James White. Atlanta's defense should be embarrassed.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

It's interesting because stunting your DL says you devalue getting there quickly to try to get there at all which is counter intuitive when facing Brady.
I imagine film study probably showed the patriots didn't face a lot of stunts (except on 3rd down) all season so they may be less prepared for it.

With Gronk out, I suspect Atlanta assumed Edelman would be Brady's primary read on most plays. Alford played a ton of man on him to outstanding effect. Even then, Atlanta often doubled him with Jones (who also had a great game upon review). I'm guessing Atlanta figured any delay in pressure by stunting would be offset by forcing Brady to go through his progressions. It worked for over a half. Then the Pats started calling other guys' numbers as primary options and the rest is history.

Regards,
Chris

 

[BTTA]

This argument is frustrating. There is a set amount of $ to be spent. BB is careful to make sure he uses his resources wisely to give the team the best possible chance to win.

If NE had the $ in the O-Line, other parts of the squad would suffer. He trusts that Brady will keep things rolling despite occasional lapses on the O-Line. The offense has been spectacular for over a decade now.

I'm with BB. He is the coach of a team that just won twice in three years, barely missing the big game - mostly due to epic injures in 2015. He's stocked this team and, yes, there are some parts that could be some cause for concern, but in the grand scheme...

Count me in with "more than fine with this OL considering the ressources spent on other parts of the team".

And we all too quickly forget, as does the media, that we lost our starting right tackle to injury just as the season started. Cannon was the #3 as late as mid August. That's serious financial resource put into the O Line for which there was no return.

 

[Ring 6]

With Gronk out, I suspect Atlanta assumed Edelman would be Brady's primary read on most plays. Alford played a ton of man on him to outstanding effect. Even then, Atlanta often doubled him with Jones (who also had a great game upon review). I'm guessing Atlanta figured any delay in pressure by stunting would be offset by forcing Brady to go through his progressions. It worked for over a half. Then the Pats started calling other guys' numbers as primary options and the rest is history.

Regards,
Chris

I have a different take.
I'm not so sure Atlantas scheme worked as I am that early in the game players made plays.
It's not like our offense was inept. We moved the ball fine but just had inevitable bad play to short circuit drives.

If Blount doesn't fumble, the OL holds up in 2 3rd down sacks, and Brady and reads the coverage right on the pick 6 and hit so a wide open Edelman coming out of the bunch instead of forcing in to an expected to be open amendola this is close game maybe even patriots are up at half time.
What changed was the the patriots eliminated bad drive killing plays and couldn't be stopped.

 

[Gumby]

Blount's fumble is no one's fault. The defense made a great play on the ball to rip it away from him. If Blount was as careless as you say Bill would have benched him.

Also everyone is blaming Andrews when it was clearly Shaq Mason who was getting his ass handed to him by Jarrett.

I disagree and side with Ivan Fears. LGB's fault.

After the fumble he was coaching up LG and told him [best I recall]: 'we told you in practice they do that, stand you up and rip, you have to go down (and not fight for last yard)'

How often did LG touch ball after that? Not a total benching, but pretty close.

 

[Kontradiction]

With Gronk out, I suspect Atlanta assumed Edelman would be Brady's primary read on most plays. Alford played a ton of man on him to outstanding effect. Even then, Atlanta often doubled him with Jones (who also had a great game upon review). I'm guessing Atlanta figured any delay in pressure by stunting would be offset by forcing Brady to go through his progressions. It worked for over a half. Then the Pats started calling other guys' numbers as primary options and the rest is history.

Regards,
Chris

Atlanta played a lot of Cover-1 Robber in that game to deal with the crossing routes the Patriots run. What was interesting in seeing and reading about afterward was how Alford would pass Edelman off to the robber on crossing routes (which was usually Neal IIRC) and then would become the robber himself. That was actually a stroke of genius by Quinn. The first time Brady saw it, he almost threw an INT. The second time he saw it, he DID throw an INT. The third time it happened, Brady ran for a first down.