So how do you grade this year’s draft?

[Wozzy]

Eh? Noll has 4 rings. Bill has 8 (two with the Giants) and a gameplan enshrined in the HoF.

You're correct, as a head coach/team builder he has six and in the modern salary cap age.

 

[Wozzy]

It's interesting that true life is stranger than fiction. It took Lebron James, a widely praised and acknowledged NBA Superstar 2 seasons to turn around the Lakers and win a championship with them, he needed them to acquire Anthony Davis first.

Kevin Durant won his first season in Golden State, KG and Ray Allen won their first season in Boston, Matt Stafford won his first season with the Rams... it happens.

Meanwhile Brady in just 1 season turns around the playoffless and hapless Buccaneers franchise and turns them into Superbowl Champions - recruiting old friends like Gronk and AB along the way while campaigning for and acquiring Leonard Fournette another key piece to the playoff puzzle.

The Buc's led the NFL in passing yards in 2019, they were 3rd in passing TD's... Jameis Winston giveth, he taketh away. He led the NFL in INT's (his 30 Interceptions is ranked 6th worst in NFL history) and was top five in fumbles.

Their defense was the #1 run stopping team in the league, they ranked 5th in forced turnovers, they started rookie and sophomore CB's who were talented but raw. In short, that 2019 Buc's team was really talented everywhere except QB... and Winston has always been talented but couldn't stop turning the ball over. Tom went to the best situation available by far.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Kevin Durant won his first season in Golden State, KG and Ray Allen won their first season in Boston, Matt Stafford won his first season with the Rams... it happens.

Golden State already had Superstars Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson on the team in addition to Draymond Green, they also had recently won the championship in 2015. Durant was just a case of the rich getting richer. The difficulty level of Brady's accomplishment was a lot harder than for KD.

Meanwhile the Rams made the Divisional Round playoffs the year before. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers on the other hand hadn't made the playoffs in 13 years and hadn't won a playoff game since 2002. The Bucs were losers for over a decade before Brady joined and changed their losing culture in just a year's time.

You also gloss over the fact that Brady beat Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs head to head in the Superbowl, the 'prodigy' that everyone praises and almost universally considers the next great generational QB in the NFL.

I know it's hard not to try to discredit Brady now that he no longer wears the Patriots laundry, but the fact is he pulled a 'Lebron James' in less time than Lebron did.

Brady proved without a doubt, it wasn't just Belichick's system that made him a champion. He took take his winning ways to a completely different city and team, a new offensive system, and won the highest honors in the NFL, the Superbowl. Because that's just what he does, win championships. And we were lucky to have him as long as we did.

 

[Wozzy]

Golden State already had Superstars Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson on the team in addition to Draymond Green, they also had recently won the championship in 2015. Durant was just a case of the rich getting richer. The difficulty level of Brady's accomplishment was a lot harder than for KD.

Meanwhile the Rams made the Divisional Round playoffs the year before. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers on the other hand hadn't made the playoffs in 13 years and hadn't won a playoff game since 2002. The Bucs were losers for over a decade before Brady joined and changed their losing culture in just a year's time.

You also gloss over the fact that Brady beat Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs head to head in the Superbowl, the 'prodigy' that everyone praises and almost universally considers the next great generational QB in the NFL.

I know it's hard not to try to discredit Brady now that he no longer wears the Patriots laundry, but the fact is he pulled a 'Lebron James' in less time than Lebron did.

Brady proved without a doubt, it wasn't just Belichick's system that made him a champion. He took take his winning ways to a completely different city and team, a new offensive system, and won the highest honors in the NFL, the Superbowl. Because that's just what he does, win championships. And we were lucky to have him as long as we did.

Recent success or failure by the Bucs had nothing to do with anything, in 2019 they led the league in passing and were third in passing TD's because they were hyper talented, despite their QB leading the league in turnovers. Their defense led the league in run stopping and were top five in forced turnovers because they were hyper talented. The Buc's entire team history is irrelevant, they were one of the most talented teams at every position in 2019 except QB... and Tom was acutely aware of that.

Gloss over the fact Brady beat Mahomes?

Brady doesn't get by Green Bay unless his defense saves his butt, he threw three interceptions in that NFC Title game and his defense kept him alive. A lot like the Patriot's defense and Dion Lewis saved his butt in 2016 against the Texans in the playoffs. That's two fewer rings Tom has if the team around him doesn't carry him because of his poor play in individual playoff games. Football is a team sport, reducing it to magic QB's is a ridiculous fan take.

Brady, Rogers, Mahomes and Burrow all lost to Stafford's this season... the least impressive QB of them all. His team was better, when Foles beat Brady in 2017 it was because his team was better. This isn't single's tennis.

 

[archstanton543]

So...how 'bout that draft? Pretty good, right?

 

[crawhammer]

Yes, there were multiple teams ahead of New England including Pittsburgh that were in on him - that's why they moved up. I actually mentioned this in the entry from this morning:

Daily Patriots News 5/9: Five Things to Know and NFL Notes | PatsFans.com

Daily New England Patriots news for Monday May 9, 2022 and NFL notes.

www.patsfans.com

Now we're up to "multiple teams"? One has to start wondering why Thornton wasn't the first WR off the board? Where else are you going to find a receiver who hauled in 4 receptions per game?

No offense but the multiple teams angle doesn't even make sense... firstly they traded up in front of 4 teams. Unless you want to believe Kansas City wanted Thornton but traded the pick to New England anyway, you'd have to exclude KC from the multiple teams. That leaves 3 teams including Philadelphia who selected a Center at #51... Philadelphia didn't take a receiver in the draft at all. Excluding Philadelphia. Indianapolis traded up to #53 to select a receiver who has 30+ pounds on Thornton. Indianapolis worked out Alec Pierce pre-draft in Cincinnati and seemed pretty clearly to be targeting him in the 2nd round. Excluding Indianapolis. So the multiple teams is down to 1. Pittsburgh whose specialty isn't spindly receivers... Claypool is slightly taller than Thornton but overweighs him by 65 pounds. JuJu was 45 pounds heavier than Thornton. Washington is much thicker than Thornton at 5-11 and 213. Pickens at 6-3 and 200 fits the Pittsburgh WR room. Not surprisingly Pittsburgh seemed pretty excited to have Pickens still there at #52.

If anything the Patriots got duped into trading up for Thornton. It's more likely they just psyched themselves out, which seems highly probably after listening to Matt Groh.

 

[crawhammer]

jeezus krist..these myopic takes are genuinely incredible...amazing inability to SEE the past 20 years with BB as head coach as anything but the greatest coaching job by ANYONE in NFL history. What you all seem to have forgotten is that the absolute biggest POS scumbag corporate CRIMINAL has had his greasy little rat claws on the NFL lever since 2006!!! This pathological,lying scumbag has continually sabotaged BB and the Patriots organization starting with the preposterous Spygate wherein we lost TOP draft picks and money, which HAS TO RET@RD A TEAM'S ROSTER!!!! Jeezus krist, BB overcame THAT and ran into the 42 FIX..and make no mistake...Carey didn't make the in the grasp call because of the friggin' Goon!! Sitting in his NFL box, big shyt eating grin on his little rich scum face. Then the LUNACY of Dehategate!! We lost more high draft picks, a 1st and a 4th round. What coach in NFL history has EVER overcome such chicanery, such overt attempts at franchise destruction???? Bill Belichick is the greatest coach in NFL history...to argue other is idiotic, ridiculous and ultra-moronic.

Spygate is on Belichick.

The NFL owners including Robert Kraft love Goodell.

100% of Belichick’s success as a head coach is tied to Brady. He probably has to rectify that if he wants to put to rest any GOAT HC debate.

 

[crawhammer]

No, mass media doesn’t do my thinking for me.

And read about Washington Commanders sordid business practices, Brian Flores revelations about Miami improprieties and Denver officials showing up to meeting smelling of booze. Many of those pro executives are boobs, products of nepotism and blind spots by billionaire owners.

To be fair are you including Jonathan Kraft in your rant against NFL executives? Robert's son and the President of the New England Patriots.

Where do Belichick's sons fall into this? Steven pretty much already running the defense. Wonder why Patricia is being groomed as Bill's replacement?... may have something to do with job security for Bill's kids?

Matt Groh, son of Bill's longtime associate Al Groh... doesn't seem like a coincidence.

Whatever, I don't care as long as the team wins... but if it doesn't then there are few things that are going to look awfully curious. I don't think the Patriots organization is all that different from many others around the league.

Watch the episode of A Football Life titled Cleveland’95 and learn something.

I've seen it. Doesn't change the fact that the team was a disaster ON THE FIELD under Belichick in 1995. FACT: they lost 10 of their last 12 games. FACT: the team he left behind continued to stink for multiple seasons. FACT: Belichick was a failure in Cleveland. Not hard to accept... it doesn't nullify anything he accomplished as a head coach in New England.

BB has more rings than any of those guys above with the exception of Noll. He has more playoff victories than any of them.

It takes 2-3 seasons to flip a roster barring extremely good luck and skill. Turning a billion dollar company around is a lot more difficult than one superstar player leaving to another great team. Comparing the two is silly. Something for smooth brains to focus on. I like football more than soap opera’s and fiction.

Sure you do... is that why you make every off-field excuse for why Cleveland tanked in 1995? Conveniently you avoid football there and point the finger at the off-field drama surrounding the team. How about Belichick just didn't do a good job putting together a winning football team. He completely botched the most important position on the field... quarterback. The Cleveland offenses were never any good under Belichick. The defense was good for one season. The whole team was trash in 1995.

 

[BradytoMosstoGronk]

So...how 'bout that draft? Pretty good, right?

Came for the draft thread, got BB/TB discussion.

Who saw that coming?

 

[Ian]

No you can’t just wave a wand. Yes they could have freed up money by releasing players and that would make them worse. Do you think they just decided that year that they weren’t going to make any moves? They didn’t because they couldn’t. It was the position they were in because of how they managed 2014-2018.

You do not know Brady would have taken less and id he did how much less? Again they would have had to release players (and/or fire go the few signings they made) in order to keep him.

It’s not fair to criticize based upon “coulda” when you can’t show how.
My point is this:
They could not have kept Brady and at the same time made the other 52 better in 2020 than it was in 2019. I would gladly entertain an argument of how they could have, but all you have so far is they could have “made moves”. I think you have forgotten the shape the team and the cap were in.

Yes they could have paid him, I don’t disagree with that. But they could not pay him and also prevent the further degradation of the other 52.

Yes, they could have. Just not at the level they were able to last year. And Brady's salary wasn't the major problem, they had bigger issues causing them headaches. His was just a small piece of other personnel miscues.

And I'm not criticizing, it's just a fact that he would have stayed had they been willing to commit to him and make him feel like they wanted him. That part isn't my opinion, that's all documented. Again, am I mad? No, because things worked out. I've already said in the past I didn't agree with it, but I understand why they did it. But trying to continue the discussion about how they couldn't have kept him and made it work just isn't true. At the same time, it would have required a longer commitment to push his salary out so they could continue having money to work with. They didn't want to, and it was what it was.

Letting him walk at that point, combined with some other moves, set them up to be able to sign who they signed while only enduring one bad year. Obviously, not all those names would have been added had he stayed, so I get it.

But they've won titles with less and I feel like had Antonio Brown not been in trouble, they probably could have done more damage in 2019 and who knows what might have happened. You make it sound like that team was terrible, they weren't that bad (7th in points scored per game, #1 in yards allowed per game on defense). One key issue there was the fact Brady knew he was done, so that didn't exactly help the situation. That and the fact he didn't have anyone to throw to because they didn't have the one threat they needed to open guys up.

To your point "would have, could have" - but that team was one key offensive player and a QB who hadn't mentally moved on from being better than it was, and maybe even a contender. Obviously, we'll never know because that's not how it went down.

 

[Ian]

Now we're up to "multiple teams"? One has to start wondering why Thornton wasn't the first WR off the board? Where else are you going to find a receiver who hauled in 4 receptions per game?

No offense but the multiple teams angle doesn't even make sense... firstly they traded up in front of 4 teams. Unless you want to believe Kansas City wanted Thornton but traded the pick to New England anyway, you'd have to exclude KC from the multiple teams. That leaves 3 teams including Philadelphia who selected a Center at #51... Philadelphia didn't take a receiver in the draft at all. Excluding Philadelphia. Indianapolis traded up to #53 to select a receiver who has 30+ pounds on Thornton. Indianapolis worked out Alec Pierce pre-draft in Cincinnati and seemed pretty clearly to be targeting him in the 2nd round. Excluding Indianapolis. So the multiple teams is down to 1. Pittsburgh whose specialty isn't spindly receivers... Claypool is slightly taller than Thornton but overweighs him by 65 pounds. JuJu was 45 pounds heavier than Thornton. Washington is much thicker than Thornton at 5-11 and 213. Pickens at 6-3 and 200 fits the Pittsburgh WR room. Not surprisingly Pittsburgh seemed pretty excited to have Pickens still there at #52.

If anything the Patriots got duped into trading up for Thornton. It's more likely they just psyched themselves out, which seems highly probably after listening to Matt Groh.

When it comes to trading up - you need a willing partner. They may not have wanted to go as high as 50, but you make the deal with the team who is willing to make the trade.

 

[Wozzy]

To be fair are you including Jonathan Kraft in your rant against NFL executives? Robert's son and the President of the New England Patriots.

No I'm not, I'm saying many NFL executives are morons. I never said anything about Jonathan Kraft.

Where do Belichick's sons fall into this? Steven pretty much already running the defense. Wonder why Patricia is being groomed as Bill's replacement?... may have something to do with job security for Bill's kids?

Being the child of coaches doesn't preclude one from being successful or not. Kyle Shanahan is the son of Mike Shanahan and he's one of the best head coaches in the league. Matt Groh is the son of Al Groh... I'm happy the Pats are tapping into a pipeline of youth that have been taught how the pro game works their whole lives.

Whatever, I don't care as long as the team wins... but if it doesn't then there are few things that are going to look awfully curious. I don't think the Patriots organization is all that different from many others around the league.

You've already written them off as a failure, this has been a running theme of your posts since Tom left.

I've seen it. Doesn't change the fact that the team was a disaster ON THE FIELD under Belichick in 1995. FACT: they lost 10 of their last 12 games. FACT: the team he left behind continued to stink for multiple seasons. FACT: Belichick was a failure in Cleveland. Not hard to accept... it doesn't nullify anything he accomplished as a head coach in New England.

So you're being deliberately obtuse... willfully ignorant... smells like an agenda because you resent BB for some perceived slight against Brady... or perhaps you just don't like his gruff nature... either way it's misguided nonsense.

Sure you do... is that why you make every off-field excuse for why Cleveland tanked in 1995? Conveniently you avoid football there and point the finger at the off-field drama surrounding the team. How about Belichick just didn't do a good job putting together a winning football team. He completely botched the most important position on the field... quarterback. The Cleveland offenses were never any good under Belichick. The defense was good for one season. The whole team was trash in 1995.

When BB was hired by Cleveland he was the youngest NFL coach in history to that point. I suspect he wasn't assertive enough, didn't push to bench Kosar, was easily pushed around by ownership and the fanbase possibly. I suspect he learned from his time there and carried what he learned to his next job. None of this changes that the last time Cleveland won a playoff game prior to 2020 was two decades before when Bill was coaching there and they had the best defense in the league. Then Art Modell pulled the rug out from under the Browns and decided to move the team to Baltimore, which had a clear effect on that 1995 team... the entire reason for that documentary. So you're just a BB hater with an agenda to push.

 

[Wozzy]

Spygate is on Belichick.

The NFL owners including Robert Kraft love Goodell.

100% of Belichick’s success as a head coach is tied to Brady. He probably has to rectify that if he wants to put to rest any GOAT HC debate.

So Deflategate was on Brady then... right?

 

[Wozzy]

Now we're up to "multiple teams"? One has to start wondering why Thornton wasn't the first WR off the board? Where else are you going to find a receiver who hauled in 4 receptions per game?

No offense but the multiple teams angle doesn't even make sense... firstly they traded up in front of 4 teams. Unless you want to believe Kansas City wanted Thornton but traded the pick to New England anyway, you'd have to exclude KC from the multiple teams. That leaves 3 teams including Philadelphia who selected a Center at #51... Philadelphia didn't take a receiver in the draft at all. Excluding Philadelphia. Indianapolis traded up to #53 to select a receiver who has 30+ pounds on Thornton. Indianapolis worked out Alec Pierce pre-draft in Cincinnati and seemed pretty clearly to be targeting him in the 2nd round. Excluding Indianapolis. So the multiple teams is down to 1. Pittsburgh whose specialty isn't spindly receivers... Claypool is slightly taller than Thornton but overweighs him by 65 pounds. JuJu was 45 pounds heavier than Thornton. Washington is much thicker than Thornton at 5-11 and 213. Pickens at 6-3 and 200 fits the Pittsburgh WR room. Not surprisingly Pittsburgh seemed pretty excited to have Pickens still there at #52.

If anything the Patriots got duped into trading up for Thornton. It's more likely they just psyched themselves out, which seems highly probably after listening to Matt Groh.

You have no clue where pro teams had any of these players on their boards...

Mel Kiper's board is a joke and is no measuring stick.

 

[Ian]

So Deflategate was on Brady then... right?

What's a little crazy is imagine if they hadn't taken Brady at 199 in 2000 and took someone else, only to see Brady get picked one or two players later. Does Belichick get killed for not taking Brady? Because I feel like he's not getting credit for making both the pick and having the stones to fight to keep Brady in the line-up over a $100 million QB. What if Belichick put Bledsoe back in and see-sawed between the two that year as we've seen happen around the league? For those of us who were deep in it back then, that's still one of the most difficult moves because he was getting absolutely killed by a media group that was significantly split on that decision at the time. I hated the call because I was a Bledsoe guy, but I got over it and it's still one of the toughest decisions - and gutsiest - he's ever made.

It's just bizarre that people are holding one of his greatest decisions against him. He bet on the guy and fought to keep him there. I mean, I get the discussion, but in some cases it reaches a weird level that I just don't quite understand.

 

[Wozzy]

What's a little crazy is imagine if they hadn't taken Brady at 199 in 2000 and took someone else, only to see Brady get picked one or two players later. Does Belichick get killed for not taking Brady? Because I feel like he's not getting credit for making both the pick and having the stones to fight to keep Brady in the line-up over a $100 million QB. What if Belichick put Bledsoe back in and see-sawed between the two that year as we've seen happen around the league? For those of us who were deep in it back then, that's still one of the most difficult moves because he was getting absolutely killed by a media group that was significantly split on that decision at the time. I hated the call because I was a Bledsoe guy, but I got over it and it's still one of the toughest decisions - and gutsiest - he's ever made.

It's just bizarre that people are holding one of his greatest decisions against him. I mean, I get the discussion, but in some cases it reaches a weird level that I just don't quite understand.

BB haters are in total denial that he not only drafted Brady, rostered him with 4 QB's on the depth chart, but then moved him up to backup QB right behind Drew. Then ultimately stuck with him even though he'd told Michael Holly prior to that that he preferred Tom's consistency and efficiency over Drew. If they didn't draft Tom and he went undrafted BB may have brought him in as an UDFA... then they'd say he was lucky Tom chose them.

Who is more responsible for the dynasty?

I'll give it to the guy who hired Brady.

 

[Ian]

BB haters are in total denial that he not only drafted Brady, rostered him with 4 QB's on the depth chart, but then moved him up to backup QB right behind Drew. Then ultimately stuck with him even though he'd told Michael Holly prior to that that he preferred Tom's consistency and efficiency over Drew. If they didn't draft Tom and he went undrafted BB may have brought him in as an UDFA... then they'd say he was lucky Tom chose them.

Who is more responsible for the dynasty?

I'll give it to the guy who hired Brady.

I agree, although at the same time, Brady could have gone Carson Wentz and turtled with all the competition that came through here over the last 20-years. Brady's work ethic and tenacity was obviously key as well, so it's a two-way street from that standpoint. But given the controversy surrounding the beginning of his career, I think people forget just how contentious that entire situation was. There were a ton of arguments, a lot of back channel discussions, and ultimately just a good outcome out of what could been far worse and Belichick fought through it to allow it all to work out. If Brady had faltered, Belichick probably would have been gone. Fortunately, he gambled on the kid and won.

 

[All3Phases]

BB haters are in total denial that he not only drafted Brady, rostered him with 4 QB's on the depth chart, but then moved him up to backup QB right behind Drew. Then ultimately stuck with him even though he'd told Michael Holly prior to that that he preferred Tom's consistency and efficiency over Drew. If they didn't draft Tom and he went undrafted BB may have brought him in as an UDFA... then they'd say he was lucky Tom chose them.

Who is more responsible for the dynasty?

I'll give it to the guy who hired Brady.

I think there’d be a few flaws in this argument, undoubtedly the dynasty never happens without both. But if it’s simply who hired Brady gets the credit, then wouldn’t you need to give Kraft the most credit since he hired BB?

Also, I agree 100% that Bill taught Brady a lot, I also don’t think it’s fair to just say he created Brady and what he was and what he became. Clearly he was a special player pretty quickly, intangibly and performance wise. If it’s simply just rostering and molding a player, he’d have the success without him, which he currently doesn’t have. For example, McCarthy certainly helped mold Rodgers during his career. Look at his college tape to his NFL tape, but I think it’s obvious to most that Rodgers is responsible for the success GB has

 

[Wozzy]

I agree, although at the same time, Brady could have gone Carson Wentz and turtled with all the competition that came through here over the last 20-years. Brady's work ethic and tenacity was obviously key as well, so it's a two-way street from that standpoint. But given the controversy surrounding the beginning of his career, I think people forget just how contentious that entire situation was. There were a ton of arguments, a lot of back channel discussions, and ultimately just a good outcome out of what could been far worse and Belichick fought through it to allow it all to work out. If Brady had faltered, Belichick probably would have been gone. Fortunately, he gambled on the kid and won.

Gambled and developed the kid, and the kid responded positively to the challenge. Brady deserves all the credit in the world for what he contributed, his smarts and dedication, for giving up money from 2014 on which was true leadership, not some unquantifiable version of leadership.

Nobody is trying to take credit from Brady. I don't even have a problem with people who say he was the most important player. But I'd put a QB's importance at around 10-15% in the big picture, it takes three phases and a lot of players playing well to win rings.

BB hires well, that's his job as GM. It doesn't always work out, some draft picks suck... which speaks volumes about the draft itself more than their ability to draft. But Bill doesn't win for two decades, win that many AFC East titles, win that many rings without being supremely good at his job. Saying BB only won because of Brady annoys me, not because it's a shot at BB... but because as a former TE and DE I take umbrage at the idea a QB is responsible for an entire team's success... it's a garbage take. A QB fanboy take.

 

[Wozzy]

I think there’d be a few flaws in this argument, undoubtedly the dynasty never happens without both. But if it’s simply who hired Brady gets the credit, then wouldn’t you need to give Kraft the most credit since he hired BB?

I give Kraft all the credit for signing BB, he put his money where his mouth is and used a 1st to get him. That being said once he hired him, Kraft stepped back and let his football guy run football operations. I could be a billionaire who can afford the best new private jet and hire the best pilot available... I'd be an idiot at that point to try and tell my pilot how to fly it or my mechanic how to maintain it.

Also, I agree 100% that Bill taught Brady a lot, I also don’t think it’s fair to just say he created Brady and what he was and what he became. Clearly he was a special player pretty quickly, intangibly and performance wise. If it’s simply just rostering and molding a player, he’d have the success without him, which he currently doesn’t have. For example, McCarthy certainly helped mold Rodgers during his career. Look at his college tape to his NFL tape, but I think it’s obvious to most that Rodgers is responsible for the success GB has

I think Tom was a great developmental prospect who received the best coaching possible from Bill and Charlie, he also had great blocking, good weapons, great defense and special teams. BB hired all of the guys responsible for what I just described.