So how do you grade this year’s draft?

[Wozzy]

The rosters changed every year, in 18 years they went to 13 CCGs, 9 sbs, won 6. The common denominator across all of them was Brady and BB. Separated their success is much different. So I’d think having Brady was more of a lynchpin than the rest.

I think your 2nd paragraph kind of proves my point, of course other guys helped. To deny that is idiotic, but I think it’s also fair to say that Brady’s presence helped elevate the team around him as well. My previous example is a good one. The 2021 team had solid qb play, a top 2 defense, top 8 offense, and good oline. Why was there such a massive drop off to previous success?

Tom's longevity and level of excellence was undoubtedly important... nobody is denying that. Just pushing back against the idea he was alone in his importance.

The 2021 team had a rookie QB, had young coaches, had old players at LB, had injuries hurt them before the playoffs and they exited the bye believing all the great things being said about them. They weren't good enough as a team, like the 15 other times Brady didn't win a ring starting at QB.

 

[All3Phases]

Tom's longevity and level of excellence was undoubtedly important... nobody is denying that. Just pushing back against the idea he was alone in his importance.

The 2021 team had a rookie QB, had young coaches, had old players at LB, had injuries hurt them before the playoffs and they exited the bye believing all the great things being said about them. They weren't good enough as a team, like the 15 other times Brady didn't win a ring starting at QB.

I don’t think anybody is saying he was alone, at least I’m not. I’m simply saying he was the most important, as of today. Nothing I’ve seen otherwise has changed that view. Let’s say the Patriots run off 5 great years in a row and I’ll gladly rethink this. I do think it’s a lot easier to build a great team with a legendary quarterback. You can explain away all the reasons why the 2021 team lost and faltered, all fair. They still had everything that people say Brady needed to be successful on it, and they weren’t.

 

[Clonamery]

They still had everything that people say Brady needed to be successful on it, and they weren’t.

What people?

 

[captain stone]

As if waking up in a nightmare and realizing Baltimore and KC Stole all your picks and your team drafted only 4th-6th rounders.

KC

1 (21)	Trent McDuffie, CB, Washington
1 (30)	George Karlaftis, Edge, Purdue
2 (54)	Skyy Moore, WR, Western Michigan
2 (62)	Bryan Cook, S, Cincinnati
3 (103)	Leo Chenal, LB, Wisconsin
	Baltimore 1 (14) Kyle Hamilton, S, Notre Dame 1 (25) Tyler Linderbaum, C, Iowa 2 (45) David Ojabo, Edge, Michigan 3 (76) Travis Jones, DT, Connecticut 4 (110) Daniel Faalele, OT, Minnesota

And your team:

1 (29)	Cole Strange, OG/C, Chattanooga
2 (50)	Tyquan Thornton, WR, Baylor
3 (85)	Marcus Jones, CB, Houston
4 (121)	Jack Jones, CB, Arizona State
4 (127)	Pierre Strong, RB, South Dakota State
4 (137)	Bailey Zappe, QB, Western Kentucky

Yep... Passing on Karlaftis (& Dax Hill) was bad enough; but passing on Skyy Moore & Travis Jones for BoneyT was simply Unconscionable.

 

[All3Phases]

What people?

Great oline, great coaching, great defense? Hell, even their offense was highly ranked

Sorry, like wozzy said they needed all above things to win. How many times do we hear that Brady always has top 10 defenses?

 

[captain stone]

Came for the draft thread, got BB/TB discussion.

Who saw that coming?

"You think you hate it now; but wait until you drive it..."

 

[40yrpatsfan]

I don’t think anybody is saying he was alone, at least I’m not. I’m simply saying he was the most important, as of today. Nothing I’ve seen otherwise has changed that view. Let’s say the Patriots run off 5 great years in a row and I’ll gladly rethink this. I do think it’s a lot easier to build a great team with a legendary quarterback. You can explain away all the reasons why the 2021 team lost and faltered, all fair. They still had everything that people say Brady needed to be successful on it, and they weren’t.

I don’t think either guy wins more than 1 or 2 rings without the other. Together they win 6 and close on numerous others. With SB 36 for example, everyone in football said it was the greatest coaching job they’d ever seen. And then in ‘04-05, they went 34-4. Then in 2018, they won due to a dominating run game.

 

[All3Phases]

I don’t think either guy wins more than 1 or 2 rings without the other. Together they win 6 and close on numerous others. With SB 36 for example, everyone in football said it was the greatest coaching job they’d ever seen. And then in ‘04-05, they went 34-4. Then in 2018, they won due to a dominating run game.

They definitely don’t win 6, but again as of today. Brady has shown he can win without Bill. The other way hasn’t happened yet. Let’s see what the future holds

 

[Ian]

They definitely don’t win 6, but again as of today. Brady has shown he can win without Bill. The other way hasn’t happened yet. Let’s see what the future holds

Another thing left out is the fact Brady has more direct control over the outcome than Bill. Bill knows what it takes to win and beat opposing schemes, etc. He obviously can’t go out and do it and it takes time to find someone smart and skilled enough to execute the game plan the way they need to.

 

[All3Phases]

Another thing left out is the fact Brady has more direct control over the outcome than Bill. Bill knows what it takes to win and beat opposing schemes, etc. He obviously can’t go out and do it and it takes time to find someone smart and skilled enough to execute the game plan the way they need to.

That’s true, but I don’t think there’s a non player that can effect games more than Bill

 

[Ian]

"You think you hate it now; but wait until you drive it..."

The highlight for me always is reading your take on what I write each day. And you're brutally honest, which is fantastic - so I wanted to let you know it hasn't gone unnoticed and I absolutely appreciate it. You're typically the only one who ever posts on those, and I definitely look forward to it. So thank you

 

[State]

Can't take you serious, BB's been criticized for his picks for most of 20 years and all he's done is win 6 super bowls with the roster he puts together.

What’s Belichick done without Brady as head coach? Won one playoff game against the Patriots with Cleveland.

Should be interesting how the rest of his career goes.

Unless he wins significant victories without the GOAT, it will be said…

 

[State]

Without an edge rusher (It looks as though the Patriots were ready to draft Jermaine Johnson before the Jets orchestrated a great trade up [Is this franchise finally getting its act together?] and snagged him at 26) or a beefy run-stopping NT or a legitimate outside CB, one has to give a grade of INCOMPLETE.

 

[Wozzy]

I don’t think anybody is saying he was alone, at least I’m not. I’m simply saying he was the most important, as of today. Nothing I’ve seen otherwise has changed that view.

Put a number on it... I said 10%. Is it closer to 15%? 20% for one player in a sport with 53 man roster seems a bit much. When there are examples like the best statistical QB in the league winning 4 games in 2020 because his team sucks, it really puts the QB level of "importance" into perspective.

Let’s say the Patriots run off 5 great years in a row and I’ll gladly rethink this. I do think it’s a lot easier to build a great team with a legendary quarterback.

You need at least "average/good" (Flacco, Dilfer, Foles, Brad Johnson, Hostetler, Doug Williams, Jim McMahon, Eli Manning, Mark Rypien, Jim Plunkett, Peyton Manning with a broken neck) QB production.

If I can rattle off that ^ many names of average guys who won, then you certainly don't need a superhero. Ideally you want "great" production from the QB position, that describes 100% of the positions in the NFL.

You can explain away all the reasons why the 2021 team lost and faltered, all fair. They still had everything that people say Brady needed to be successful on it, and they weren’t.

Brady couldn't win a ring when his teams weren't good enough, that's why he doesn't possess 22 rings right now. He couldn't win last year with basically the same exact team. Winning a ring is hard, repeating is even harder.

 

[All3Phases]

Put a number on it... I said 10%. Is it closer to 15%? 20% for one player in a sport with 53 man roster seems a bit much. When there are examples like the best statistical QB in the league winning 4 games in 2020 because his team sucks, it really puts the QB level of "importance" into perspective.

Good question, my perspective was giving a % on the two men most responsible, which are Brady and BB. Between them id probably go 60-40, 55/45 Brady over BB. But again, thats using what we have seen of them without each other. In another 5 years that could change.

You need at least "average/good" (Flacco, Dilfer, Foles, Brad Johnson, Hostetler, Doug Williams, Jim McMahon, Eli Manning, Mark Rypien, Jim Plunkett, Peyton Manning with a broken neck) QB production.

If I can rattle off that ^ many names of average guys who won, then you certainly don't need a superhero. Ideally you want "great" production from the QB position, that describes 100% of the positions in the NFL.

I think on most occurrences you need a great passing game throughout a season, its hard to get to a SB and win it. Your passing game, in most cases will need to carry you at points during the season in tough environments. There are of course exceptions, and things can be done differently. 13 Seahawks, 15 Broncos, 2000 ravens, etc, etc. Without elite QB play, your team building needs to be pretty much perfect everywhere else. I think thats pretty hard to do. Especially in the modern era. Alot of the guys you listed are not really this generation, where theres more emphasis on the passing game now.

Brady couldn't win a ring when his teams weren't good enough, that's why he doesn't possess 22 rings right now. He couldn't win last year with basically the same exact team. Winning a ring is hard, repeating is even harder.

I dont think everything is exact. Just because youre the best quarterback doesnt mean you win it all, but put it in perspective...With Brady, the Patriots were essentially guaranteed to be in the final 4, that gives you a shot every year. Without, BB coached teams arent near that. A good example would be the Chiefs with/without Mahomes. Do I only give him 10% of credit, when all they do is go to the final 4 every year he plays? Before him they didnt do that.

Side note, I dont think the Bucs were nearly the same team as the previous year

 

[Wozzy]

Good question, my perspective was giving a % on the two men most responsible, which are Brady and BB. Between them id probably go 60-40, 55/45 Brady over BB. But again, thats using what we have seen of them without each other. In another 5 years that could change.

BB gets no credit for drafting and developing the player most responsible... okay.

I think on most occurrences you need a great passing game throughout a season, its hard to get to a SB and win it. Your passing game, in most cases will need to carry you at points during the season in tough environments. There are of course exceptions, and things can be done differently. 13 Seahawks, 15 Broncos, 2000 ravens, etc, etc. Without elite QB play, your team building needs to be pretty much perfect everywhere else. I think thats pretty hard to do. Especially in the modern era. Alot of the guys you listed are not really this generation, where theres more emphasis on the passing game now.

Joe Burrow lost in 2021 specifically because of his O-Line, even if he and his great everywhere else team took it as far as they possibly could.

Aaron Rogers lost because his special teams units were ranked dead last on the season, and in the playoffs made 4 mistakes that doomed them.

It takes a team, Tom Brady is not the only "great" QB in the league. The difference between Tom and the greatest QB's in the league like these two above is negligible... so small it can hardly be seen by the human eye. It's certainly not the difference between 7 rings and 1 or none... the much larger gap is between the quality of teams.

I dont think everything is exact. Just because youre the best quarterback doesnt mean you win it all, but put it in perspective...With Brady, the Patriots were essentially guaranteed to be in the final 4, that gives you a shot every year. Without, BB coached teams arent near that. Side note, I dont think the Bucs were nearly the same team as the previous year

Brady was surrounded by good/great talent his entire career with a few rare exceptions and when not, often due to injuries. Every year he won a ring he had a top five defense... literally every time. BB always made sure his O-Line and Special Teams were top notch. Deshaun Watson hasn't had that luxury. Hell Mahomes has never had a top five defense, the one time he might have had a top ten defense they won a ring. It takes a team.

 

[All3Phases]

BB gets no credit for drafting and developing the player most responsible... okay.

He does get credit, I believe I gave him credit? But at some point, if he can only do that with 1 player then where should we give the credit to the special player? He didnt build Brady in a factory, he still had special qualities he was born with.

Joe Burrow lost in 2021 specifically because of his O-Line, even if he and his great everywhere else team took it as far as they possibly could.

Aaron Rogers lost because his special teams units were ranked dead last on the season, and in the playoffs made 4 mistakes that doomed them.

It takes a team, Tom Brady is not the only "great" QB in the league. The difference between Tom and the greatest QB's in the league like these two above is negligible... so small it can hardly be seen by the human eye. It's certainly not the difference between 7 rings and 1 or none... the much larger gap is between the quality of teams.

Joe Burrow was in the SB largely because he had an MVP caliber season. Rodgers scored 10 points in a playoff game...I think that contributed a lot as well. And again, these are literally 1 game examples. If Rodgers isnt on the Packers, how often are they making the playoffs, CCGs?

I fully acknowledge it takes a team, but the largest impact player on the team is the quarterback. I dont think thats debatable. I could argue that the Chiefs teams pre Mahomes were stronger than the ones with Mahomes. The success level was much different once Mahomes played. It certainly takes a team, but having that one player makes it a hell of a lot easier.

Brady was surrounded by good/great talent his entire career with a few rare exceptions and when not, often due to injuries. Every year he won a ring he had a top five defense... literally every time. BB always made sure his O-Line and Special Teams were top notch. Deshaun Watson hasn't had that luxury. Hell Mahomes has never had a top five defense, the one time he might have had a top ten defense they won a ring. It takes a team.

And again, this year they had a top 2 defense, BB, and a great Offensive line. And they were a run of the mill wildcard team. Mahomes example above, again nothing is linear...Being the best doesnt mean winning every year...But would you rather take your chances in the final 4 or possibly missing/making the playoffs every year? Thats a massive difference. Again 13/18 years here, they were in the final 4...BB coached teams w/o Brady have 1 playoff win in 9 years. Hes still getting the credit for building and developing those teams right? Did his ability to do that just go away? I dont think so, but I do think when you have a legendary QB, the rest of that is a lot easier

 

[crawhammer]

Brady couldn't win a ring when his teams weren't good enough, that's why he doesn't possess 22 rings right now. He couldn't win last year with basically the same exact team. Winning a ring is hard, repeating is even harder.

No Godwin or Brown... not basically the same team at all.

You need at least "average/good" (Flacco, Dilfer, Foles, Brad Johnson, Hostetler, Doug Williams, Jim McMahon, Eli Manning, Mark Rypien, Jim Plunkett, Peyton Manning with a broken neck) QB production.

Look at your list there...

Flacco was otherworldly in the 2012 postseason... he carried that mediocre team on his back in the postseason... 11 TDs, 0 INTs and a passer rating of 117.2.

Eli Manning did the same for the mediocre 2011 Giants... 9 TDs and 1 INT in the postseason... took a beating in the NFCCG and responded heroically.

Doug Williams threw 4 TDs in one quarter of the Super Bowl... played a great game.

The 2000 Ravens are an example of a great defense carrying a mediocre team to a Super Bowl title.
Same with the 2002 Bucs... great defense, mediocre team.
The '85 Bears... the greatest defense of all-time... offensively they basically run it down your throat but their primary objective was don't screw it up and let the defense win the game.

You're saying average QB play on great teams is good enough to win but you're not giving entirely accurate examples... I pointed out 2 QBs who played great for mediocre teams and 3 all-time defenses who carried otherwise mediocre teams to titles.

The 2015 Broncos by the way weren't even getting average quarterback play... Manning was atrocious that entire season and the rest of their offense wasn't doing much either... this is another example of a great defense carrying a mediocre team to a title.

And the fact of the matter with Brady is he gave you uniquely clutch quarterback play and an uncanny ability to comeback from deficits in the postseason...

1. Game-winning drive in SB 36.
2. Overcame 4th-quarter deficit and led game-winning drive in SB 38.
3. Overcame two 14-point deficits, a 4th-quarter deficit, and led a game-winning drive in 2014 Divisional Round.
4. Overcame 10-point 4th-quarter deficit and led game-winning drive in SB 49.
5. Overcame 25-point second half deficit and led game-winning drive in SB 51.
6. Overcame 10-point 4th-quarter deficit and led game-winning drive in 2017 AFCCG.
7. Overcame two 4th-quarter deficits and converted three consecutive 3rd-10s on game-winning drive in OT of 2018 AFCCG.
8. Game-winning drive in SB 53.

Brady has 14 postseason game-winning drives... second is 6.
Brady has 9 postseason comeback wins... only one other QB has more than 4.
That's what it takes to have more than twice as many postseason wins as the next QB.

 

[Wozzy]

No Godwin or Brown... not basically the same team at all.

With other good WR’s available to step in. You think real world football is fantasy football.

Look at your list there...

Flacco was otherworldly in the 2012 postseason... he carried that mediocre team on his back in the postseason... 11 TDs, 0 INTs and a passer rating of 117.2.

Eli Manning did the same for the mediocre 2011 Giants... 9 TDs and 1 INT in the postseason... took a beating in the NFCCG and responded heroically.

Doug Williams threw 4 TDs in one quarter of the Super Bowl... played a great game.

The 2000 Ravens are an example of a great defense carrying a mediocre team to a Super Bowl title.
Same with the 2002 Bucs... great defense, mediocre team.
The '85 Bears... the greatest defense of all-time... offensively they basically run it down your throat but their primary objective was don't screw it up and let the defense win the game.

You're saying average QB play on great teams is good enough to win but you're not giving entirely accurate examples... I pointed out 2 QBs who played great for mediocre teams and 3 all-time defenses who carried otherwise mediocre teams to titles.

The 2015 Broncos by the way weren't even getting average quarterback play... Manning was atrocious that entire season and the rest of their offense wasn't doing much either... this is another example of a great defense carrying a mediocre team to a title.

And the fact of the matter with Brady is he gave you uniquely clutch quarterback play and an uncanny ability to comeback from deficits in the postseason...

1. Game-winning drive in SB 36.
2. Overcame 4th-quarter deficit and led game-winning drive in SB 38.
3. Overcame two 14-point deficits, a 4th-quarter deficit, and led a game-winning drive in 2014 Divisional Round.
4. Overcame 10-point 4th-quarter deficit and led game-winning drive in SB 49.
5. Overcame 25-point second half deficit and led game-winning drive in SB 51.
6. Overcame 10-point 4th-quarter deficit and led game-winning drive in 2017 AFCCG.
7. Overcame two 4th-quarter deficits and converted three consecutive 3rd-10s on game-winning drive in OT of 2018 AFCCG.
8. Game-winning drive in SB 53.

Brady has 14 postseason game-winning drives... second is 6.
Brady has 9 postseason comeback wins... only one other QB has more than 4.
That's what it takes to have more than twice as many postseason wins as the next QB.

So in short… it doesn’t take a superstar QB at all, it just takes a QB to play well. Like Flacco, Williams, Dilfer and Eli… twice. You really made a salient point there… what it was not really sure beyond collapsing the unicorn QB theory. If we can list ten or more average QB’s who won a ring then that’s not an outlier.

Brady played on the best teams, had the most playoff starts by far, so he has most of the records. Edelman and Amendola hold most playoff receiving records, it’s due to volume. You can’t put up playoff stats without playing in the playoffs.

Stop hijacking threads with your Brady ***********.

 

[All3Phases]

With other good WR’s available to step in. You think real world football is fantasy football.

So in short… it doesn’t take a superstar QB at all, it just takes a QB to play well. Like Flacco, Williams, Dilfer and Eli… twice. You really made a salient point there… what it was not really sure beyond collapsing the unicorn QB theory. If we can list ten or more average QB’s who won a ring then that’s not an outlier.

Brady played on the best teams, had the most playoff starts by far, so he has most of the records. Edelman and Amendola hold most playoff receiving records, it’s due to volume. You can’t put up playoff stats without playing in the playoffs.

Stop hijacking threads with your Brady ***********.

I think the point youre missing is if...Brady was such a small % worth of the success...Why cant the guy thats built all those successful teams muster up any of that success without Brady? (Again, career not over but as of now)