So how do you grade this year’s draft?

[Wozzy]

No one was taking Strange in the 1st round except for the Patriots so there was no chance of our 1st round board getting "ruined."

They took him 3 picks shy of the 2nd, would you have felt better if he was taken at the top of the 2nd round? No, you’d still complain because BB traded back and took a Guard. You’d complain no matter what they did post Brady.

Who were the Patriots jumping in front of by moving up to #50 from #54? Have any of these teams been linked to Thornton?... Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis or Kansas City? Philadelphia took a Center. The other three all drafted receivers who were expected by virtually EVERYONE to go ahead of Thornton. The trade made no sense. And losing Thornton would not have constituted "ruining" our draft board... that's assuming we're drafting for football and not a track meet.

Who cares, all that matters now is how they play.

Never happened. Cleveland finished out the Belichick era by losing 10 of their last 12 games. Belichick left behind a floundering team that had three more losing seasons before they would start to turn things around.

Watch the episode of A Football Life titled Cleveland’95 and learn something.

Because you have better sources than those guys? Sorry to crush your ego but you don't. They weren't giving their opinions either. They were reporting what multiple NFL executives told them. You really don't care who said what because either way you're just going to defend your team. Has Belichick ever done anything wrong in your mind?

No, mass media doesn’t do my thinking for me.

And read about Washington Commanders sordid business practices, Brian Flores revelations about Miami improprieties and Denver officials showing up to meeting smelling of booze. Many of those pro executives are boobs, products of nepotism and blind spots by billionaire owners.

Why do you keep bringing up these head coaches when talking about Belichick in Cleveland?

I didn’t chuckles, I was responding directly to a poster who brought those coaches up by name and said they turned programs around in one season. Read then respond, go in that order.

Here's what each did with those teams after those losing seasons...

Jimmy Johnson had 3 consecutive winning seasons and went 7-1 in the postseason with 2 Super Bowl titles.
Bill Walsh excluding the strike shortened season had 7 consecutive winning seasons and went 10-4 in the postseason with 3 Super Bowl titles.
Chuck Noll won 4 of the next 8 Super Bowls with an overall 14-4 postseason record in those seasons.
Bill Parcells was 8-3 in postseason with 2 Super Bowl titles.
Tom Landry coached 29 seasons in Dallas with 20 winning seasons and 2 Super Bowl titles.

Belichick had 1 winning season in 5 years in Cleveland. He won 1 playoff game. He lost 10 of his last 12 games before getting fired. How does that compare with anything these other head coaches did in their highly successful tenures?

BB has more rings than any of those guys above with the exception of Noll. He has more playoff victories than any of them.

It takes 2-3 seasons to flip a roster barring extremely good luck and skill. Turning a billion dollar company around is a lot more difficult than one superstar player leaving to another great team. Comparing the two is silly. Something for smooth brains to focus on. I like football more than soap opera’s and fiction.

 

[lancerman]

Ring said they couldn't afford him. They could - but that would have required having the confidence he could play at least until 45. They didn't, so the contract structure allowed them to move on but put them in a tough spot financially, which is what happens when a big contract comes to an end. Albeit, it wasn't as bad as others we've seen.

Again, I'm glad it worked out and that Jones is here. At the same time, if it hadn't, I think we'd all be pretty frustrated with Newton or Mariota still here and probably having OK seasons while still coming up short wondering when "the next guy" would be here. I'm just glad we're not in that boat.

Exactly. The issue wasn't that Brady could go. The issue was that Brady was someone you had to believe was worth keeping through a rebuild for a couple of years and deal with cap constraints caused by him to do it.

The ultimate verdict on that decision will depend on when Brady retires/drops off. If Brady plays a couple more years and the Pats are still wondering if Jones is the guy, then it was a mistake. If Brady retires at the end of this season, then clearly it wasn't worth sacraficing a rebuild/reload for a guy who wasn't going to see the end of it.

 

[PWRxWLF]

Holy ****. Even Ian got sucked in. Sage…we need the goddamn sage!!! Get to smudgin’!

 

[VJCPatriot]

As if waking up in a nightmare and realizing Baltimore and KC Stole all your picks and your team drafted only 4th-6th rounders.

KC

1 (21)	Trent McDuffie, CB, Washington
1 (30)	George Karlaftis, Edge, Purdue
2 (54)	Skyy Moore, WR, Western Michigan
2 (62)	Bryan Cook, S, Cincinnati
3 (103)	Leo Chenal, LB, Wisconsin
	Baltimore 1 (14) Kyle Hamilton, S, Notre Dame 1 (25) Tyler Linderbaum, C, Iowa 2 (45) David Ojabo, Edge, Michigan 3 (76) Travis Jones, DT, Connecticut 4 (110) Daniel Faalele, OT, Minnesota

And your team:

1 (29)	Cole Strange, OG/C, Chattanooga
2 (50)	Tyquan Thornton, WR, Baylor
3 (85)	Marcus Jones, CB, Houston
4 (121)	Jack Jones, CB, Arizona State
4 (127)	Pierre Strong, RB, South Dakota State
4 (137)	Bailey Zappe, QB, Western Kentucky

Yup you've got to just shake your head. Considering how badly the Pats 2022 draft got panned, a lot of us will be watching KC and Baltimore's prospects because those are exactly the types of players we were looking at pre-draft to fill the Patriots team needs. And also considering we traded with KC twice, basically gifting them two of those players directly via trade - McDuffie and Moore, and by taking Cole Strange a couple of rounds early, we gifted them Karlaftis as well.

If this draft is looked upon badly a year from now, the question for Kraft might become do I need to hire a GM to do the grocery shopping because the current GM is hurting the efforts of Coach, which also is himself with baffling moves in the draft that have depleted the talent level of the team over the past decade?

Remember this isn't the stacked team that was a dynasty over a decade ago, with the ability to throw away luxury picks for niche needs, this is a team that got knocked out in the first round of the playoffs and missed the playoffs the year before as well.

 

[Bruins29]

You’re all a bunch of ****ing broken records. Absolutely ruining this board.
Same old ****, day after day.
@Ian , it’s time to deputize some folks. This **** is like the Wild West west. Don’t care about the posters history. Don’t care how long they’ve been here, what they’ve done. They talk about Brady vs Belichick in a non Brady vs Belichick thread, they get a warning, after that, no more warnings. Take the board down to 10 posters if we have to. We must curb this ****ing plague.

Great post Holy. 100% true

 

[Toofy]

Tough to say. It all depends, are they getting close but just coming up short? Or does Jones become a mess and now they're back looking for the next guy? I would say that context would obviously be a big part of that perception. Especially if the scenario is the latter and Brady pulls off another Super Bowl next year.

I too have the fear .. what if Jones regresses and becomes like trubisky or Goff.. then we are back to drawing table...

What if belichick got zappe as insurance for such an outcome . I sincerely hope not, but hope and believe with fingers crossed that Mac takes a significant step forward ...

 

[All3Phases]

The 2 sides definitely seemed to not be on the same page. The Pats didn't want to give him a long term deal, then he insisted on a deal where he'd be a FA the next year. They tried to get him weapons (Sanu, AB, Harry), but none of them worked out. Then they finished badly in 2019.

If they'd signed Brady and let Thuney walk, then where would that have left them? They just needed to start over with a fresh cap, some FA's, and a QB that wasn't in his final year or two.

I think it hypothetically makes them much better in 2021 and until Brady retires. They didn’t have Thuney on the roster last year regardless. They still have loads of money to spend in the offseason whether they have Brady or not. Would they need to be a little more conservative with it? Sure, they’d just have to make the right choices though. Instead of Henry and Smith, maybe just Henry.

 

[Ian]

Who were the Patriots jumping in front of by moving up to #50 from #54? Have any of these teams been linked to Thornton?... Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis or Kansas City? Philadelphia took a Center. The other three all drafted receivers who were expected by virtually EVERYONE to go ahead of Thornton. The trade made no sense.

Yes, there were multiple teams ahead of New England including Pittsburgh that were in on him - that's why they moved up. I actually mentioned this in the entry from this morning:

Daily Patriots News 5/9: Five Things to Know and NFL Notes | PatsFans.com

Daily New England Patriots news for Monday May 9, 2022 and NFL notes.

www.patsfans.com

 

[VJCPatriot]

I think it hypothetically makes them much better in 2021 and until Brady retires. They didn’t have Thuney on the roster last year regardless. They still have loads of money to spend in the offseason whether they have Brady or not. Would they need to be a little more conservative with it? Sure, they’d just have to make the right choices though. Instead of Henry and Smith, maybe just Henry.

Exactly, the 'but we needed the money to sign Thuney' argument is moot because BB just ended up letting Thuney walk in free agency anyways.

So what was the point? You told us you didn't have money for Brady because you wanted to keep the tackle, then you let the tackle go in free agency.

So it was all a lie, the real reason things went down as they did - BB didn't believe in Brady anymore, he gave him the same old runaround in the offseason, and Brady was then forced to leave. The excuse being money. But we all know contracts can be written with clever provisions and fake dollars that just push the money down the road. The real problem is BB didn't want to commit to Brady long term. And we all know that all Tampa Bay paid was 2 years, 25m per year and they got an instant return on their investment, a Super Bowl championship, when they hadn't even made the playoffs in over a decade before.

 

[Ian]

A lot of decisions made were the result of going all in and regardless of outcome the party was coming to an end either way. If they won a ring in 2019 they still would be facing cap hell.

While true, extensions and moving money around would have been how they would have fixed it - just like they did for the 20-years prior. Belichick made the "All-in" statement but it's just an exaggeration given how they've always handled things financially. While they wouldn't have had the $$ to go out and get all the guys they got last offseason, they could have freed up money to have made a couple of moves. He used the money excuse to the media, but everyone knows the reason is he wanted to move on due to Brady's age.

Again, bad drafting was also the killer. And it's only getting worse due to the escalating receiver contracts. That's obviously been a big topic of discussion and became a real factor for the first time during this latest draft.

At the end of the day, we're not arguing about the cap because the cap was just the excuse to move on. I'm just saying that if they wanted to keep him, they could have. Belichick didn't, and we are where we are. I get the call had to be made, but it's just too bad things got to where they got to given the bad personnel moves. And I forgot the tight ends were post-Brady in 2020 - it feels like it's been longer.

Again, he looks like a genius because landing Mac essentially sets them up for the foreseeable future. And all of us, myself included, are definitely happy about it. Even if I - like others on here as well - wish things hadn't ended the way they did with Brady. At the same time, I'm obviously rooting for Bill to finish strong and add to his legacy. It's not one vs another, it's just another chapter in a story that isn't over, but it just happened to be a little frustrating. How it ends is really all that matters and I obviously wish him well.

 

[VJCPatriot]

It takes 2-3 seasons to flip a roster barring extremely good luck and skill. Turning a billion dollar company around is a lot more difficult than one superstar player leaving to another great team. Comparing the two is silly. Something for smooth brains to focus on. I like football more than soap opera’s and fiction.

It's interesting that true life is stranger than fiction. It took Lebron James, a widely praised and acknowledged NBA Superstar 2 seasons to turn around the Lakers and win a championship with them, he needed them to acquire Anthony Davis first.

Meanwhile Brady in just 1 season turns around the playoffless and hapless Buccaneers franchise and turns them into Superbowl Champions - recruiting old friends like Gronk and AB along the way while campaigning for and acquiring Leonard Fournette another key piece to the playoff puzzle.

"When Brady signed with Tampa Bay in 2020, the team had not reached the postseason since 2007 and had not won a playoff game since 2002." - source: wikipedia.

 

[Ring 6]

That's not true. They could have kicked the can down the road long-term just like they had for the last 20-years+. Instead, the change in how they decided to handle it created the problem.

It didn't just suddenly become an issue after 20-years. The fact Belichick decided the end was near was the reason. If you don't extend a player with a moderately large salary out long-term, it doesn't work.

Again, I'm not saying it didn't ultimately work out (if they didn't land Jones, I'd probably feel differently), but it absolutely could have if they would have continued with the same philosophy and structure they used over the previous two decades.

They still have to pay him. He got 50 mill for 2 years from Tampa. We paid out qb 3 mill and couldn’t sign players to improve the team in 2020. What can are you kicking to keep him AND create more money?

It certainly did just become an issue because the efforts to stay on top resulted in a spent cap with a deteriorating team. Do you think the 2019 team could realistically win? Aside from Brady they had more losses than additions, the other 52 got worse from 19 to 20. If you had to pay Brady they would have gotten “more worse”.

They shot their load. They used a different philosophy from 2011-2018 than they did from 2005-2010.
It caused 2 things.
1) Instead of 1 SB trip, 0 rings and 5 playoff wins in 6 years, they had
5 SB trips, 3 championships and 21 playoff wins in 8 years.
2) after 1, the bills came due

I’m thrilled they changed the approach. I was much happy winning SBs and I will happily trade having to rebuild and let Brady walk at 42 for all that success.
Would you rather have 2005-2010 continue until 2024 so Brady could retire here with 3 rings?

 

[All3Phases]

They still have to pay him. He got 50 mill for 2 years from Tampa. We paid out qb 3 mill and couldn’t sign players to improve the team in 2020. What can are you kicking to keep him AND create more money?

It certainly did just become an issue because the efforts to stay on top resulted in a spent cap with a deteriorating team. Do you think the 2019 team could realistically win? Aside from Brady they had more losses than additions, the other 52 got worse from 19 to 20. If you had to pay Brady they would have gotten “more worse”.

They shot their load. They used a different philosophy from 2011-2018 than they did from 2005-2010.
It caused 2 things.
1) Instead of 1 SB trip, 0 rings and 5 playoff wins in 6 years, they had
5 SB trips, 3 championships and 21 playoff wins in 8 years.
2) after 1, the bills came due

I’m thrilled they changed the approach. I was much happy winning SBs and I will happily trade having to rebuild and let Brady walk at 42 for all that success.
Would you rather have 2005-2010 continue until 2024 so Brady could retire here with 3 rings?

Do we realize 2/50 is really affordable for a quarterback? What was the philosophy change? Cap hit?

They spent 160$ mil gtd in FA in 2021, I don’t see how adding his contract prevents much of that from happening

 

[venecol]

Huh, I didn't realize Linda Holliday had multiple accts on the forum.

 

[Ian]

They still have to pay him. He got 50 mill for 2 years from Tampa. We paid out qb 3 mill and couldn’t sign players to improve the team in 2020. What can are you kicking to keep him AND create more money?

Yes, they could have paid him with a long-term deal and made moves to free up money just like they always had. Could they have pulled off the signings like what we saw last offseason? Of course, not. But they could have made it work. Again, Belichick decided he didn't want to gamble and so far, it's paid off based on the timing thanks to how things fell and the fact Mac is here. People talk about the financial problems like they existed because of Brady. They didn't. They existed because of the other bad deals and draft misses.

And Brady got paid a lot of money in Tampa because they had the money and the room. So they did. But the issue here wasn't the money, it was the lack of a commitment by Belichick and the team that was the problem. He would have taken a lower salary if they would have committed to him.

They didn't. So it is what it is.

I'm not mad at Belichick but I probably feel this way because Newton and Mariota aren't currently our starter heading into 2022. Again, it doesn't come down to whether or not they could have paid him. It just came down to the fact they didn't want to, and that's why the money ballooned because when the ride stops, the end is always, always, always a problem.

We're just fortunate it's not as bad as it's been for other franchises. And clearly, to have someone like Jones end up here feels like catching lightning in a bottle twice. Hopefully, we'll see him take things to the next level this season.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, they could have paid him with a long-term deal and made moves to free up money just like they always had. Could they have pulled off the signings like what we saw last offseason? Of course, not. But they could have made it work. Again, Belichick decided he didn't want to gamble and so far, it's paid off based on the timing thanks to how things fell and the fact Mac is here. People talk about the financial problems like they existed because of Brady. They didn't. They existed because of the other bad deals and draft misses.

And Brady got paid a lot of money in Tampa because they had the money and the room. So they did. But the issue here wasn't the money, it was the lack of a commitment by Belichick and the team that was the problem. He would have taken a lower salary if they would have committed to him.

They didn't. So it is what it is.

I'm not mad at Belichick but I probably feel this way because Newton and Mariota aren't currently our starter heading into 2022. Again, it doesn't come down to whether or not they could have paid him. It just came down to the fact they didn't want to, and that's why the money ballooned because when the ride stops, the end is always, always, always a problem.

We're just fortunate it's not as bad as it's been for other franchises. And clearly, to have someone like Jones end up here feels like catching lightning in a bottle twice. Hopefully, we'll see him take things to the next level this season.

No you can’t just wave a wand. Yes they could have freed up money by releasing players and that would make them worse. Do you think they just decided that year that they weren’t going to make any moves? They didn’t because they couldn’t. It was the position they were in because of how they managed 2014-2018.

You do not know Brady would have taken less and id he did how much less? Again they would have had to release players (and/or fire go the few signings they made) in order to keep him.

It’s not fair to criticize based upon “coulda” when you can’t show how.
My point is this:
They could not have kept Brady and at the same time made the other 52 better in 2020 than it was in 2019. I would gladly entertain an argument of how they could have, but all you have so far is they could have “made moves”. I think you have forgotten the shape the team and the cap were in.

Yes they could have paid him, I don’t disagree with that. But they could not pay him and also prevent the further degradation of the other 52.

 

[rochrist]

No. Why would anyone "refuse" to watch film on a player?

I have no idea, but if it wasn't you, another one of your fellow smooth-brains categorically did. He said he had no need, cause 'he'd read the scouting report'.

 

[rochrist]

BB has more rings than any of those guys above with the exception of Noll. He has more playoff victories than any of them.

Eh? Noll has 4 rings. Bill has 8 (two with the Giants) and a gameplan enshrined in the HoF.

 

[Joker]

jeezus krist..these myopic takes are genuinely incredible...amazing inability to SEE the past 20 years with BB as head coach as anything but the greatest coaching job by ANYONE in NFL history. What you all seem to have forgotten is that the absolute biggest POS scumbag corporate CRIMINAL has had his greasy little rat claws on the NFL lever since 2006!!! This pathological,lying scumbag has continually sabotaged BB and the Patriots organization starting with the preposterous Spygate wherein we lost TOP draft picks and money, which HAS TO RET@RD A TEAM'S ROSTER!!!! Jeezus krist, BB overcame THAT and ran into the 42 FIX..and make no mistake...Carey didn't make the in the grasp call because of the friggin' Goon!! Sitting in his NFL box, big shyt eating grin on his little rich scum face. Then the LUNACY of Dehategate!! We lost more high draft picks, a 1st and a 4th round. What coach in NFL history has EVER overcome such chicanery, such overt attempts at franchise destruction???? Bill Belichick is the greatest coach in NFL history...to argue other is idiotic, ridiculous and ultra-moronic.

Tom Brady is the greatest QB in NFL history and his greatness shines through the exact same disgusting criminality perpetrated by the corporate slimeball, Stokoe the Shytshow. If baby hands held onto the ball that hit him in the hands instead of blabbing about toes THAT Super Bowl, Brady should have EIGHT Super Bowl wins as a Patriot. There is no "who is better?" argument to be made here. We have the greatest coach and we had the greatest QB in NFL history.

 

[Wozzy]

While true, extensions and moving money around would have been how they would have fixed it - just like they did for the 20-years prior. Belichick made the "All-in" statement but it's just an exaggeration given how they've always handled things financially. While they wouldn't have had the $$ to go out and get all the guys they got last offseason, they could have freed up money to have made a couple of moves. He used the money excuse to the media, but everyone knows the reason is he wanted to move on due to Brady's age.

The salary cap isn't an excuse, it's math. And yes it's fluid, but it's also got a limit to how much you can tweak it and how much money you want to borrow from future cap. "For the twenty years prior" isn't accurate. From 2005-2013 Brady was among the highest paid QB's in the league, he was the highest paid player in the entire league in 2010. He agreed to take less from 2014 on, people need to understand this... the Pats weren't just being cheap. The Patriots also made a commitment, they kicked cap down the road which is something they avoided like the plague earlier in the dynasty. Listen to the Peter King podcast from a couple months ago where he talks to Scott Pioli about the early 2000 days of the dynasty. He said BB refused to kick cap down the road, that they both abhorred the practice. That changed in 2014. They went to four Super Bowls and won four of them because of the combination of Team and Tom. The last time that happened was a decade earlier when they did it the first time when Tom was paid like a 6th round rookie. None of that ^ is coincidence. The cap is real.

Again, bad drafting was also the killer. And it's only getting worse due to the escalating receiver contracts. That's obviously been a big topic of discussion and became a real factor for the first time during this latest draft.

There were some bad picks made, I also think they drafted for need and reached because of it. BB typically wouldn't have taken a WR in the first, they needed weapon to appease Tom and had no money for free agent WR's... who are expensive. They took Harry, big mistake.

Now I see them drafting and none of that pressure is there. They can draft for need and take guys that might be hit or miss but at least they're swinging for the fences now. I like this draft class. I think they took a lot of speed, and guys who fit their systems.

At the end of the day, we're not arguing about the cap because the cap was just the excuse to move on. I'm just saying that if they wanted to keep him, they could have. Belichick didn't, and we are where we are. I get the call had to be made, but it's just too bad things got to where they got to given the bad personnel moves. And I forgot the tight ends were post-Brady in 2020 - it feels like it's been longer.

They could have kept him, he could have chosen to stay... they wouldn't have been contending for years or paying Brady how he deserved to be paid. He's not taking less if the team isn't a contender, why would he play on a rebuilding roster at 42 years old... he shouldn't.

People can call me a BB honk but everything I'm saying now I was saying before Tom announced he was leaving... that the team had cap issues and both sides might be smarter to move on. It's not an excuse to me because I was saying it before Tom decided to leave... BB admitted the same thing on Sirius Radio with Charlie Weiss months later. Pretty convenient I was sticking up for BB months before he admitted the problem.

Again, he looks like a genius because landing Mac essentially sets them up for the foreseeable future. And all of us, myself included, are definitely happy about it. Even if I - like others on here as well - wish things hadn't ended the way they did with Brady. At the same time, I'm obviously rooting for Bill to finish strong and add to his legacy. It's not one vs another, it's just another chapter in a story that isn't over, but it just happened to be a little frustrating. How it ends is really all that matters and I obviously wish him well.

He looks like a genius for drafting Brady, Seymour, Gronk, Wilfork, DMC, Mankins... and a gaggle more great players.

He drafted arguably the best QB in the 2021 class, the best DT and one of the best RB's... so if we're tracking "recent" drafting it's been solid for one year. They added a lot of talent in this draft, and when you have a pocket passer... keep him clean. We'll see how these rookies play. Go Pats!