Post Game Thread - Pats vs Jags

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I can look this up. But, I don’t understand how we never have any money to spend.

Brady is way underpaid. Gronk is underpaid.

Sure we pay DMac.

But, how do the Rams do it? And, they were trying to go after Mack?! How’s thst possible?

We pay our RB and WRs low. I guess DT got decent money. Idk.

The problem is the lack of young, cheap talent. The Patriots are paying plenty of guys. Gronkowski, especially with his incentives, is still among the top paid TEs in the league. Gilmore, McCourty, Hightower, Mason, Cannon, and Gostowski all got top-5 deals. For the most part they’re getting their money’s worth out of the veterans, but they’re not getting any boost from rookie deals.

You asked how the Rams do it, and the answer is pretty simple because many teams do the same thing in creating a short term (1-2 year window) by stacking their team with lots of big contracts. They backload the contracts so the cap hits are very affordable in years 1 and 2. They’ll likely be completely hamstrung for many years to come beginning in 2020 and will take 4-5 years to field a competitive team, much like the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills have all done throughout the decade in cycles of going “all in” followed by cap hell. It isn’t a sustainable long-term strategy. The Saints just began to rebuild their team following years of suffering from this strategy, so the idea that your elite quarterback will be enough is not necessarily true.

 

[luuked]

You asked how the Rams do it, and the answer is pretty simple because many teams do the same thing in creating a short term (1-2 year window) by stacking their team with lots of big contracts. They backload the contracts so the cap hits are very affordable in years 1 and 2. They’ll likely be completely hamstrung for many years to come beginning in 2020 and will take 4-5 years to field a competitive team

They might be banking on an uncapped year around the time the new CBA is due to get away with it.

 

[Danger Zone]

Don’t give me that crap. Bill has dropped the ball drafting especially defensively. You have to try and hit with some of these guys in the second round and after and he hasn’tThat’s you making excuses for the poor drafting. If you keep failing then you go out and get a playmaker defensively. The guy’s a great coach but to me he has always been overrated when it comes to defense.

Actually, don't give me that "they just need to hit more on their 2nd round picks" crap

The competition and research that goes into drafting in the NFL is just mind boggling. We are talking billion dollar organizations here. The competition is as cut-throat and prepared as it gets.

And even if you arent a believer in the Market Efficiency Theory, it's pretty clear there is a cap on elite talent in the NFL. There are only so many super talented, NFL players to go around.

This is the one quantifiable and tangible stat when it comes to the NFL draft. The earlier you draft, the better chance you have of that player being a success (with position also having an effect).

And for the past 18 years, Belichick has drafted on average behind everybody else.

It is my theory is that drafting behind all other teams for such extended periods of time IS a very insidious and cumulative handicap -much more so than gets pooh-poohed by posters and pundits like yourself.

But lets take the last five years of the draft not including 2018 (where players are at least in their sophomore year and they have had a chance to start playing the position they were drafted for).

JAGUARS DRAFT POSITION IN THE FIRST ROUND (before trades)
2013 - 2nd
2014 - 3rd
2015 - 3rd
2016 - 5th
2017 - 4th

PATRIOTS DRAFT POSITION IN THE FIRST ROUND (before trades)
2013 - 29th
2014 - 29th
2015 - 32nd
2016 - FORFEITED
2017 - 32nd

Gee.

Where would you like to draft?

Which team would you expect to have better/more talent?

As I've tried to express here. No other team has drafted in a worse average draft position than the Patriots during this same 5 year period.

And over the past 18 years, no matter WHAT five year period you look at, the Patriots have drafted in the worst average position.

So yes, drafting behind all other teams for 18 straight years is going to have a cumulative effect on your team.

Even Belichick's.

 

[supafly]

Actually, don't give me that "they just need to hit more on their 2nd round picks" crap

The competition and research that goes into drafting in the NFL is just mind boggling. We are talking billion dollar organizations here. The competition is as cut-throat and prepared as it gets.

And even if you arent a believer in the Market Efficiency Theory, it's pretty clear there is a cap on elite talent in the NFL. There are only so many super talented, NFL players to go around.

This is the one quantifiable and tangible stat when it comes to the NFL draft. The earlier you draft, the better chance you have of that player being a success (with position also having an effect).

And for the past 18 years, Belichick has drafted on average behind everybody else.

It is my theory is that drafting behind all other teams for such extended periods of time IS a very insidious and cumulative handicap -much more than gets pooh-poohed by posters and pundits like yourself.

But lets take the last five years of the draft not including 2018 (where players are at least in the sophomore year) and players have had a chance to start playing the position they were drafted more.

JAGUARS DRAFT POSITION IN THE FIRST ROUND (before trades)
2013 - 2nd
2014 - 3rd
2015 - 3rd
2016 - 5th
2017 - 4th

PATRIOTS DRAFT POSITION IN THE FIRST ROUND (before trades)
2013 - 29th
2014 - 29th
2015 - 32nd
2016 - FORFEITED
2017 - 32nd

Gee.

Where would you like to draft?

Which team would you expect to have better/more talent?

As I've tried to express here. No other team has drafted in a worse average draft position than the Patriots during this same 5 year period.

Over the past 18 years, no matter WHAT five year period you look at, the Patriots have drafted in the worst average position.

And yes, drafted behind all other teams for 18 straight years is going to have a cumulative effect on your team.

Even Belichicks.

This is all true and you make great points that everyone should keep in mind when criticizing the selections. However, they’ve also failed miserably, most recently in the higher rounds, so that’s playing some part in things, too.

As a whole, I’m with you in the opinion that Belichick is right around the same range as most everyone else, which is impressive considering the end of round spots where they’re selecting, but the recent misses are probably catching up to him just the same.

 

[luuked]

Actually, don't give me that "they just need to hit more on their 2nd round picks" crap

The competition and research that goes into drafting in the NFL is just mind boggling. We are talking billion dollar organizations here. The competition is as cut-throat and prepared as it gets.

And even if you arent a believer in the Market Efficiency Theory, it's pretty clear there is a cap on elite talent in the NFL. There are only so many super talented, NFL players to go around.

This is the one quantifiable and tangible stat when it comes to the NFL draft. The earlier you draft, the better chance you have of that player being a success (with position also having an effect).

And for the past 18 years, Belichick has drafted on average behind everybody else.

It is my theory is that drafting behind all other teams for such extended periods of time IS a very insidious and cumulative handicap -much more so than gets pooh-poohed by posters and pundits like yourself.

But lets take the last five years of the draft not including 2018 (where players are at least in their sophomore year and they have had a chance to start playing the position they were drafted for).

JAGUARS DRAFT POSITION IN THE FIRST ROUND (before trades)
2013 - 2nd
2014 - 3rd
2015 - 3rd
2016 - 5th
2017 - 4th

PATRIOTS DRAFT POSITION IN THE FIRST ROUND (before trades)
2013 - 29th
2014 - 29th
2015 - 32nd
2016 - FORFEITED
2017 - 32nd

Gee.

Where would you like to draft?

Which team would you expect to have better/more talent?

As I've tried to express here. No other team has drafted in a worse average draft position than the Patriots during this same 5 year period.

And over the past 18 years, no matter WHAT five year period you look at, the Patriots have drafted in the worst average position.

So yes, drafting behind all other teams for 18 straight years is going to have a cumulative effect on your team.

Even Belichick's.

The Jags essentially used their second round pick from about the same spot as BB and Caserio were using their first round pick. Anyone who dismisses the difference in drafting position is a hack.

 

[Danger Zone]

This is all true and you make great points that everyone should keep in mind when criticizing the selections. However, they’ve also failed miserably, most recently in the higher rounds, so that’s playing some part in things, too.

As a whole, I’m with you in the opinion that Belichick is right around the same range as most everyone else, which is impressive considering the end of round spots where they’re selecting, but the recent misses are probably catching up to him just the same.

Of course they are.

No Team Can Beat the Draft

Because of the intangibles and unknowables of what makes any given player a success in the NFL, drafting has a lot of similarities with gambling and games of chance. As such we have to expect these periods of poor drafting. Its natural. Its to be expected.

Even the best GMs can not consistently be a success at the draft. Nobody ever has. Just like the best gamblers in the world go on losing streaks. They have all had their down periods.

But on top of that, the NFL draft and waiver system is trying to artificially create parity. It is inflicting it on GMs. Its basically saying that because you won the world championship (of poker) last year, you can start the next year with the least chip total of everyone there.

But its worse than even that. The NFL is also saying 'because you won the world championship two years ago you have less chips to play with this year as well and because you did so well the year before that we're giving you even less and oh because the other players are jealous of your success we are going to make you forfeit that fat stack of 1000's.

I just believe that Belichick is doing more with a lot less (draft wise) than most people are giving him credit for and I think that the handicap of the NFL draft parity system has a lot more cumulative and negative impact on putting together a team than people think it does.

 

[RobertWeathers]

They could have picked it up on a QB sneak, and giving the ball back to an offense that is eviscerating your defense is just conceding the game.

See my previous posts

 

[RobertWeathers]

Brady's success rate at those short yardage plunges is what again?

See my previous posts on the topic

 

[GorBelSer]

We needed more deep shots and not dink and dunk the clock away. Maybe we get pi etc.

To whom are you referring? We dont have any deep threats right now (unless you count Patterson catching a ball or two on a trick play) and it is hard to envision our WRs drawing PI against good corners.

 

[Kdo5]

Where did I say he sucked ? Did you see me complaining that he forced a ball to Dorsett instead of taking the first down throw to Develin ? No. Because plays like this happen.

But the reality is that the offense could not find a single matchup they liked and then looked pedestrian and could not take advantage of getting two turnovers.

I am not going to go seek out the post specifically but you said 'Brady SUCKED, OL sucked' followed by the rest of your post.

 

[Fatmancryin]

To whom are you referring? We dont have any deep threats right now (unless you count Patterson catching a ball or two on a trick play) and it is hard to envision our WRs drawing PI against good corners.

Coleman could have done it and B.B. elected to make him inactive.

As for Patterson, what exactly is his role? Teams aren’t kicking to him so his skill is absolute useless. He’s supposed to have speed, so he can’t run downfield a few times?

 

[borg]

To whom are you referring? We dont have any deep threats right now (unless you count Patterson catching a ball or two on a trick play) and it is hard to envision our WRs drawing PI against good corners.

Hogan Dorsett Patterson.....
For sentimental reasons, I'm not going to rank this grouping as the worst WR set in the NFL
.....#31

It is puzzling how Bill has chosen to address this position grouping...
1) He won't use premium draft picks(Cooks' #1....BB had buyers remorse)
2) He won't spend premium dollars
3) He relies on cast offs/expendables from other teams

Cooks + Amendola.....out
12 weeks of Edelman....in

 

[Fatmancryin]

Hogan Dorsett Patterson.....
For sentimental reasons, I'm not going to rank this grouping as the worst WR set in the NFL
.....#31

It is puzzling how Bill has chosen to address this position grouping...
1) He won't use premium draft picks(Cooks' #1....BB had buyers remorse)
2) He won't spend premium dollars
3) He relies on cast offs/expendables from other teams

Cooks + Amendola.....out
12 weeks of Edelman....in

That’s how he builds the entire roster so why would the WR group be any different.

They don’t pay anyone not named Brady, Gronk, Gilmore ,somewhat McCourty and a busted up Hightower.

This roster needs a lot of work on both sides of the ball, the roster building has me dumbfounded.

 

[ensoul]

Problems on the defensive side have already been stated. Now about our offense.

I honestly think Josh McDaniels is ******ed at times. It has been obvious for at least three years that handing the ball of to James White is a waste of a time. I don't want to hear anything about keeping the defense honest because it is simply wasting a down. Also, I like David Andrews, but he has never been able to consistently move anyone so why do we try to run up the gut behind him so much. If we are committed to running the ball we should seriously consider Karras at center.

We needed more deep shots and not dink and dunk the clock away. Maybe we get pi etc. What is truly upsetting is we had no time for a proper comeback because WE wasted clock in the second quarter. Some will say our defense needed the break but I disagree. We seem to always field a team that is conditioned well and it is not like they could have played any worse.

Lastly, Patterson needs to become a full fledged running back. Just imagine his rushing attack not being confined to reverses and wheel routes against linebackers.

Pats receives are garbage and they cannot get separation from anyone. That is why you're seeing 5 or 10 yard passes. Jags double teamed gronk (which every team should do) and Brady had no one to throw to. BB never replaced Cooks or Amendola and clearly it shows. When Dorsett and Hogan are your #1 and #2 receivers no one should be shocked when they struggle to move the ball.

Like I said this is 2006 all over again and it's a shame this is who Brady has to work with.

Of course when you're playing Eagles Super Bowl hero Eric Rowe that's another problem.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That’s how he builds the entire roster so why would the WR group be any different.

They don’t pay anyone not named Brady, Gronk, Gilmore ,somewhat McCourty and a busted up Hightower.

This roster needs a lot of work on both sides of the ball, the roster building has me dumbfounded.

Wrong.

At the time he signed his deal Devin was the 2nd highest paid safety in the game.

At the time he signed his deal Cannon was the 2nd highest paid RT in the game

At the time he signed his deal Hightower was the 2nd highest paid ILB in the game

For guards, Shaq is #2 in total guaranteed $.

The narrative of "the Patriots don't pay" is a crock of ****.

 

[condon84]

The problem is the lack of young, cheap talent. The Patriots are paying plenty of guys. Gronkowski, especially with his incentives, is still among the top paid TEs in the league. Gilmore, McCourty, Hightower, Mason, Cannon, and Gostowski all got top-5 deals. For the most part they’re getting their money’s worth out of the veterans, but they’re not getting any boost from rookie deals.

You asked how the Rams do it, and the answer is pretty simple because many teams do the same thing in creating a short term (1-2 year window) by stacking their team with lots of big contracts. They backload the contracts so the cap hits are very affordable in years 1 and 2. They’ll likely be completely hamstrung for many years to come beginning in 2020 and will take 4-5 years to field a competitive team, much like the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills have all done throughout the decade in cycles of going “all in” followed by cap hell. It isn’t a sustainable long-term strategy. The Saints just began to rebuild their team following years of suffering from this strategy, so the idea that your elite quarterback will be enough is not necessarily true.

Excellent point.

If you go back and look at our 2012 and 2013 drafts, we really hit on impact players who then helped us go on our recent runs. But of course as contracts were up, we couldn't afford those players and if you look at the draft picks from 2014, we just haven't hit that many players that provided the same type of impact.

 

[Kdo5]

There was 8:01 left to play and the defense had already given up an 8 minute drive to start the half. You don't give the JAX offense the chance to have another long drive on your defense that has already spent a ton of time on the field..

Agree to disagree. I've expressed my point on this a few times already. In a game chalk full of bad coaching this was one of the very few instances where I thought they did the right thing.

 

[Froob]

They might be banking on an uncapped year around the time the new CBA is due to get away with it.

In a sense, wouldn't that make the cap....crap?

 

[Froob]

Wrong.

At the time he signed his deal Devin was the 2nd highest paid safety in the game.

At the time he signed his deal Cannon was the 2nd highest paid RT in the game

At the time he signed his deal Hightower was the 2th highest paid ILB in the game

For guards, Shaq is #2 in total guaranteed $.

The narrative of "the Patriots don't pay" is a crock of ****.

We spend near the cap every year. Where are we supposed to get more money from...lol?

 

[GorBelSer]

Coleman could have done it and B.B. elected to make him inactive.

As for Patterson, what exactly is his role? Teams aren’t kicking to him so his skill is absolute useless. He’s supposed to have speed, so he can’t run downfield a few times?

That kid certainly has speed and athleticism, but I sincerely doubt he knows anything about our offense (or any offense for that matter). He was a raw product destined to regress in Cleveland, I dont see much use of him this year. Patterson has never been a reliable receiver, I remember him making some crazy catches in Minnesota and then not being able to handle an easy five yard pass.
Besides, even if we had Mike Evans or Julio Jones last night it would not have mattered since Brady had very little time to do anything meaningful. During that long second quarter drive, he was literally throwing to the nearest receiver in order to avoid sack.