Patriots Hall of Fame Finalists - Edelman, Mankins & Vinatieri (Vinatieri vs Edelman)

[RobertWeathers]

I don't think they envisioned 20 years of greatness in 1991 when they started it. To your point, they should just put the guys in that are worthy. Some years might have 3, other years might have none.

They need to change it ASAP.

If they honored two players a year and for instance inducted AV and JE the same day we wouldn't be having this stupid-ass discussion.

Orchids had the power to expedite Tom's eligibility. He has the power to add as many people to the PHoF day as he wants.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Actually there have been several to get in most recently Clayborn and Gray. Isn't Parcells going in this year?

Yes.

...and Tuna getting in before AV is complete ********.

 

[Triumph]

They are not “because of AV”.

Who made the kick? Belichick.

The game winning FG was routine.

Tell the Buffalo fans that. Scott Norwood shanked the exact same type of money kick that AV made.

Tell Chargers fans a FG is routine. Keating missed a chip shot vs the Pats and Marty Schottenhiemer was fired after having a 14 - 2 season.

Getting him the shot is what won the game. Among all the other plays made in offense and defense.

In SB 38 he only needed to make that kick because he missed 2 early. “Not 0/3” isn’t exactly a HOF endorsement.

Nonsense

AV was a huge part of the NE Dynasty with his money kicking. It was an era of getting the ball in OT and driving into FG range to kick and move on to next week. Having a Kicker like AV was crucial to NEs success.

 

[Triumph]

Yes.

...and Tuna getting in before AV is complete ********.

Suppose Bobby K s greasing the NFL HOF wheels by kissing Parcells keester because he is still an influential NFL person?

Maybe Tuna is able to change a few votes to YES next time BK is up for another vote.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Suppose Bobby K s greasing the NFL HOF wheels by kissing Parcells keester because he is still an influential NFL person?

Maybe Tuna is able to change a few votes to YES next time BK is up for another vote.

That IMO is exactly why Tuna is getting in.

To demonstrate to the HoF voters what, "forgiveness, compassion, and for posterity's sake letting bygones be bygones.".

Tuna has influence still. No question.

AV is the collateral damage in Orchids PR campaign. The Apple series wasn't good enough.

 

[Ring 6]

JE made bad decisions. JE dropped passes. JE fumbled. JE missed a block. JE didn't move the right way to be in a position to catch passes. Thats why his catch percentage was just OK. JE only had 5 TDs in 19 playoff games. He was nothing more than a chain mover. Guys like Gronk and others did all the scoring. They made it to the SB vs the Eagles just fine without him.

See how stupid that sounds? That is a your AV argument. Marginalize accomplishments just to make a dumbass point.

AV converted points when the offense couldn't put the ball in the EZ. Like the 5FGs vs the Colts in the AFCCG. Like the FG vs TN to go up 17-14 in Q4 in -3 weather. Like when Tom threw a EZ pick vs CAR. If he threw a TD they woudn't have needed AV.

Thats why they call it a team sport. You deliver when your team needs to.

You don't truly think he was part of the winning they did which is absurd.

Again you fundamentally don't value kickers.

Not at all. My take on Vinatieri is credit for what he did and proper comparison to other players.

You seem very emotional about this.

Let me clarify. Position players are incredibly more important than kickers. I can’t actually believe we are having a discussion that a K has more value than the best position players on your team.

I don’t think kickers have no value. But it’s not close to the value of a real football player.
Let me ask you this. If you were creating teams from scratch how many players get drafted before the kicker?

I never said he wasn’t part of the winning. He did his job, but his job is far less important that real football players.

Do you think that since they call it a “team sport” all 53 players are equal?

Would you put Vinatieri in ahead of Brady? Why not? Different players and positions contribute more to winning than others. LT means more than RG. RB means more than FB.

I’m not diminishing Vinatieri I’m slotting him where he belongs. You are diminishing the leading receiver on 3 SB champs and MVP of one by saying he was less valuable than a K.

 

[Ring 6]

They did not lose because of Welker's drop. They lost because the defense couldn't get off the field and lost the TOP battle 37:22 to 22:55. Tom Brady gave up 2 points with a safety and immediately threw a carless pick right after the Pats poor defense created a turnover (INT). The offense was up 17-9 and decided that lead was sufficient and play it safe knowing their defense was a liability. Then the defense had their 2nd annual Super Bowl collapse giving up a game winning drive. The team lost - not Welker.

We're going down the rabbit hole here. Had the defense not done it's job and stood their ground when they very well could've folded like a lawn chair (down 10 vs Seattle and 25 vs Atlanta), Brady, Edelman and the Pats offense doesn't come back and win against Seattle or Atlanta.

If Welker makes that catch the game is over.

But some DID win and some did not.
It’s the HOF of a team with 6 Championships. How could championships not be a major factor.

And by the way, I don’t believe a team HOF should honor stats, or tenure, I think it should honor contribution to success.
I think it ridiculous to put Parcells in because he didn’t contribute to success. We were a .500 team and the one good season we had he ruined by giving up during SB prep to negotiate the Jets job.

Sure when we never won anything honoring good players was fine, but now we have success to honor.

For the same reason, I can’t fathom why people want to put Chuck Fairbanks in the HOF when he never won a playoff game.

 

[Ring 6]

Who made the kick? Belichick.

Tell the Buffalo fans that. Scott Norwood shanked the exact same type of money kick that AV made.

Tell Chargers fans a FG is routine. Keating missed a chip shot vs the Pats and Marty Schottenhiemer was fired after having a 14 - 2 season.

Nonsense

AV was a huge part of the NE Dynasty with his money kicking. It was an era of getting the ball in OT and driving into FG range to kick and move on to next week. Having a Kicker like AV was crucial to NEs success.

They didn’t win the game because of the guy who made the 90% shot more than because of the real players who gave him the chance to.

So you think kickers are the most important players?

He played his part it was not a greater part than the real football players who played offense and defense.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes.

...and Tuna getting in before AV is complete ********.

Tuna getting in at all is ********.

There is a guy Vinatieri should be ahead of.

 

[Ring 6]

They need to change it ASAP.

If they honored two players a year and for instance inducted AV and JE the same day we wouldn't be having this stupid-ass discussion.

Orchids had the power to expedite Tom's eligibility. He has the power to add as many people to the PHoF day as he wants.

Im real curious now on your opinions on this.

From the first dynasty how many of these players would you put Vinatieri ahead of?

Brady
Dillon
Brown
Branch
Light
Seymour
Faulk
Wilfork
Law
Harrison
Vrabel
Bruschi
Mcginest
Phifer
Warren
Washington
Milloy
A Smith
Koppen
Andruzzi
OTIS.

 

[TheRainMaker]

If Welker makes that catch the game is over.

There was still 4 minutes left and they would've been at about the 20 yard line. Pats would have to get one more first down to ice it.

And by the way, I don’t believe a team HOF should honor stats, or tenure, I think it should honor contribution to success.

Then you'd have teams hardly putting players into their HOF. So if you're not using stats, how isn't Adam a major contributor to their success?

Im real curious now on your opinions on this.

From the first dynasty how many of these players would you put Vinatieri ahead of?

Brady
Dillon
Brown
Branch
Light
Seymour
Faulk
Wilfork
Law
Harrison
Vrabel
Bruschi
Mcginest
Phifer
Warren
Washington
Milloy
A Smith
Koppen
Andruzzi
OTIS.

None. All of those players are more important, but we're not even having this discussion about that dynasty had Adam shanked the kicks. He was erratic, but he made it when he had to. If the offense can't do their job and cross the end zone, they rely on the K to get them 3 points to bail them out which Adam did in critical moments. 2004 is when they turned the corner of being able to score consistently and not rely on Adam in critical moments anymore.

 

[Ring 6]

There was still 4 minutes left and they would've been at about the 20 yard line. Pats would have to get one more first down to ice it.

Then you'd have teams hardly putting players into their HOF. So if you're not using stats, how isn't Adam a major contributor to their success?

None. All of those players are more important, but we're not even having this discussion about that dynasty had Adam shanked the kicks. He was erratic, but he made it when he had to. If the offense can't do their job and cross the end zone, they rely on the K to get them 3 points to bail them out which Adam did in critical moments. 2004 is when they turned the corner of being able to score consistently and not rely on Adam in critical moments anymore.

No way they lose that game if he makes the catch.

I didn’t say he wasn’t a contributor, I said many other players contributed more than a kicker.

You understand the difference between playing offense at SB level and making a kick with a 90% success rate, right?

If all of those players are more important why are we having this discussion. Surely the guy who led the entire NFL in post season receptions and yards on 3 SB champions and was a SB MVP was more important than some of the ones in that list.

 

[lancerman]

Vinatieri sure as hell deserved it more than Parcells

 

[RobertWeathers]

Not at all. My take on Vinatieri is credit for what he did and proper comparison to other players.

You seem very emotional about this.

Let me clarify. Position players are incredibly more important than kickers. I can’t actually believe we are having a discussion that a K has more value than the best position players on your team.

I don’t think kickers have no value. But it’s not close to the value of a real football player.
Let me ask you this. If you were creating teams from scratch how many players get drafted before the kicker?

I never said he wasn’t part of the winning. He did his job, but his job is far less important that real football players.

Do you think that since they call it a “team sport” all 53 players are equal?

Would you put Vinatieri in ahead of Brady? Why not? Different players and positions contribute more to winning than others. LT means more than RG. RB means more than FB.

I’m not diminishing Vinatieri I’m slotting him where he belongs. You are diminishing the leading receiver on 3 SB champs and MVP of one by saying he was less valuable than a K.

Andy you are in no position to call anyone on this board, "emotional". You just responded to three of my posts. Slow down...

I can't believe we are having a debate over AV's actual status as PHoF inductee when he should go into the actual HoF.

So I guess Ted Johnson should go into the PHoF? How about Ty Warren? They are position players, right?

No- You are diminishing AV by saying, "he had one good day".

Please stop. Your paper argument absolutely sucks.

 

[Triumph]

They didn’t win the game because of the guy who made the 90% shot more than because of the real players who gave him the chance to.

HAHAHA

Thats the same as saying the QB who threw the game winning TD did not win the game.

So you think kickers are the most important players?

Great kickers are just as important as great QBs.

Jim Kellys Kicker failed him in the Giants SB.

He played his part it was not a greater part than the real football players who played offense and defense.

Special Teams is 1/3 of the game.

BB understood that.

 

[Triumph]

That IMO is exactly why Tuna is getting in.

To demonstrate to the HoF voters what, "forgiveness, compassion, and for posterity's sake letting bygones be bygones.".

Tuna has influence still. No question.

AV is the collateral damage in Orchids PR campaign. The Apple series wasn't good enough.

Its sad.

Tuna shafted the Pats out of Curtis Martin. During the NE vs GB SB Tuna was lining up his next job with the Jets using the phone that Kraft paid for. The people that vote for Kraft to get in the HOF wont be fooled. They were not phased by Kraft hiring a minority HC and promoting a woman to serve in his NFL franchise. Everyone saw right through it.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy you are in no position to call anyone on this board, "emotional". You just responded to three of my posts. Slow down...

I can't believe we are having a debate over AV's actual status as PHoF inductee when he should go into the actual HoF.

So I guess Ted Johnson should go into the PHoF? How about Ty Warren? They are position players, right?

No- You are diminishing AV by saying, "he had one good day".

Please stop. Your paper argument absolutely sucks.

Dude you are 100% bring emotional.

I don’t say he doesn’t belong, I say he need to wait until after more deserving players. He wouldn’t be in the HOF based on his patriots career alone.

No Ted Johnson was pretty much a detriment to the team in the championship years. He was very good before his injuries but bad after. Warren is a good case to consider.

I didn’t say he had one good day, I said he produced average results, had the greatest day ever by a kicker and that one day is clouding people’s judgment. I also recognize his longevity but that’s not pertinent to the Patriot HOF.

Very simple, take the list I gave you of patriots from the first dynasty and tell me where you rank Vinatieri.

 

[Ring 6]

HAHAHA

Thats the same as saying the QB who threw the game winning TD did not win the game.

Great kickers are just as important as great QBs.

Jim Kellys Kicker failed him in the Giants SB.

Special Teams is 1/3 of the game.

BB understood that.

It’s not close to saying that.

Wow. You think kickers are as important as QBs.
I’ll stop there, no need to put any time into your opinion on this matter, you just invalidated any value in your opinion.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Dude you are 100% bring emotional.

Your point?

I don’t say he doesn’t belong, I say he need to wait until after more deserving players. He wouldn’t be in the HOF based on his patriots career alone.

LOL. OK he doesn't get in after 40 other players do.

No Ted Johnson was pretty much a detriment to the team in the championship years. He was very good before his injuries but bad after. Warren is a good case to consider.

Later in his career. He was a fine early down player.

I didn’t say he had one good day, I said he produced average results, had the greatest day ever by a kicker and that one day is clouding people’s judgment. I also recognize his longevity but that’s not pertinent to the Patriot HOF.

Yes you did. Go look at your post.

Very simple, take the list I gave you of patriots from the first dynasty and tell me where you rank Vinatieri.

Near the top.

 

[Ring 6]

Your point?

LOL. OK he doesn't get in after 40 other players do.

Later in his career. He was a fine early down player.

Yes you did. Go look at your post.

Near the top.

Name the ones you have ahead of him. Why won’t you? It firmly establishes your opinion. It seems you would rather rephrase, misrepresent and change my words than take a stand.

I listed 21 players. You said near the top, which I would assume is 1-5 out of 21. But let’s say top half
Who of these 13 are you throwing out for the kicker.
Brady
Brown
Light
Branch
Vrabel
Bruschi
Harrison
Phifer
Seymour
Law
Faulk
Wilfork
Mcginest