Patriots Hall of Fame Finalists - Edelman, Mankins & Vinatieri (Vinatieri vs Edelman)

[maust]

I think new threads are started so posters can control the conversation.

We have both been here long enough to know the 'conversation' couldn't be controlled with a whip and a chair or an aversion collar and club for that matter. It either pinballs off God knows where or gets deleted. What it doesn't ever seem to get is under control

 

[Ring 6]

So you're saying AV should be ineligible because he is a kicker?

Not ineligible but certainly behind the position players who contributed much more.

 

[Free_Pacman]

I don’t even understand how this is a debate…

-Both are Patriots Hall of Famers
-Both made plays integral to championships
-one player played his whole career with the Patriots; the other left to join the Patriots’ biggest rival and helped Peyton Manning win a championship.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Not ineligible but certainly behind the position players who contributed much more.

Ok so in your mind AV is behind other players beyond JE?

With you it really is the fact he is a kicker. That is your argument.

 

[Pape]

Not ineligible but certainly behind the position players who contributed much more.

AV contributed 1158 points to the team... 117 points in the playoffs...

JE scored 254 points... 30 points in the playoffs, with 1 passing td... Edit: corrected the playoff points scored because I had the number wrong

put that in perspective - Gronk scored 462 points in the regular season, 72 points in the playoffs...

and with all due respect, the "yeah but" you are about to drop is meaningless... 1275 points is "contributing more"

Both had great moments in a Pats jersey... They should both be in the Patriots HoF...

If Adam had gotten in this year, it would be well deserved... the deciding factor was he went up against a player who is beloved by the Patriot fan base... his candidacy stacks up with anyone not named Brady...

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[Ring 6]

Ok so in your mind AV is behind other players beyond JE?

With you it really is the fact he is a kicker. That is your argument.

Yes of course he is behind many players.

It’s because of his contributions. Kickers contributions, even if they were superlative (which they weren’t other than 1 day) aren’t comparable to position players.

The average K from the time he entered the league concerts about 83% his kicks. AV was below that in both the RS and the PS. He was an average K who had one great day. I don’t understand how you would rank that guy more valuable to the franchise than guy who played offense or defense and were among the best players on a dynastic franchise.
With you it really is nostalgia. That is your argument.

 

[Ring 6]

AV contributed 1158 points to the team... 117 points in the playoffs...

JE scored 254 points... 6 points in the playoffs, with 1 passing td...

put that in perspective - Gronk scored 462 points in the regular season, 72 points in the playoffs...

and with all due respect, the "yeah but" you are about to drop is meaningless...

You are joking right.
If not congratulations on making the most ignorant football argument in the history of football.

By the way you seemed to have missed Edelmans 5 post season TD receptions, most fans can forget the game winner against Seattle. Perhaps you weren’t a fan yet then and didn’t see it.

 

[Pape]

You are joking right.
If not congratulations on making the most ignorant football argument in the history of football.

By the way you seemed to have missed Edelmans 5 post season TD receptions, most fans can forget the game winner against Seattle. Perhaps you weren’t a fan yet then and didn’t see it.

Oh sorry, he scored 30 points in the playoffs... thats so much better...

whats ignorant is short shrifting 1/3 of the game and relegating it to "just kicking"

the Kicking game can win or lose a game for you in the blink of an eye... just ask John Kasey

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[Pape]

I don’t even understand how this is a debate…

-Both are Patriots Hall of Famers
-Both made plays integral to championships
-one player played his whole career with the Patriots; the other left to join the Patriots’ biggest rival and helped Peyton Manning win a championship.

Your first two points are spot on... The third? Not so much.

A lot of the Patriot Hall of fame players left New England... Business side of football is inevitable... Even Brady turned his back on the franchise and helped another team win a championship

 

[signbabybrady]

Yes of course he is behind many players.

It’s because of his contributions. Kickers contributions, even if they were superlative (which they weren’t other than 1 day) aren’t comparable to position players.

The average K from the time he entered the league concerts about 83% his kicks. AV was below that in both the RS and the PS. He was an average K who had one great day. I don’t understand how you would rank that guy more valuable to the franchise than guy who played offense or defense and were among the best players on a dynastic franchise.
With you it really is nostalgia. That is your argument.

This must be what Borges sounds like trying to get Rodney into the hall.

 

[Ring 6]

Oh sorry, he scored 30 points in the playoffs... thats so much better...

whats ignorant is short shrifting 1/3 of the game and relegating it to "just kicking"

the Kicking game can win or lose a game for you in the blink of an eye... just ask John Kasey

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Considering we don’t win 2 SBs without his TDs, yes that is an awful lot better.

A kicker isn’t one third of the game. All of special teams are one third, and actually even less than that. Kickers don’t block, tackle, return, cover which is 90% of that 1/3.
But great addition to the kicker made the extra point he’s more valuable that the 10 guys on offense who didn’t score the TD. True insight.

Kasey wouldn’t have kicked off if Vinatieri hadn’t missed both of his FG attempts.

 

[Pape]

Considering we don’t win 2 SBs without his TDs, yes that is an awful lot better.

A kicker isn’t one third of the game. All of special teams are one third, and actually even less than that. Kickers don’t block, tackle, return, cover which is 90% of that 1/3.
But great addition to the kicker made the extra point he’s more valuable that the 10 guys on offense who didn’t score the TD. True insight.

Kasey wouldn’t have kicked off if Vinatieri hadn’t missed both of his FG attempts.

Kicking is part of special teams ... To pull it out and relegate it to mere nothingness says more about your argument than anything I could say...

It's as ridiculous as saying a position player is mostly meaningless because they only make 3 or 4 catches a game and didnt contribute on the other 30 plays... It's all integrated into an overall game...

And way to miss the point... Adam missed kicks, just like position players miss catches or fumble footballs... But when it counted most, he made the three he had to.

So, Stop being obtuse when trying to make a point.

Anyway, that's 3... Have a nice day, will talk to you tomorrow if you can restrain yourself from being rude and abusive.

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[maust]

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Saw what you did there...

 

[sb1]

He was an average K who had one great day.

Adam Vinatieri who played in 4 decades was an "average K"? Say what?

Also he had 1 miss not 2 in XXXVIII. One was blocked

 

[sb1]

Not ineligible but certainly behind the position players who contributed much more.

It's the Patriots HOF not the NFL HOF. Both AV and JE11 meant a lot to the franchise and are deserving.

 

[Ring 6]

Kicking is part of special teams ... To pull it out and relegate it to mere nothingness says more about your argument than anything I could say...

It's as ridiculous as saying a position player is mostly meaningless because they only make 3 or 4 catches a game and didnt contribute on the other 30 plays... It's all integrated into an overall game...

And way to miss the point... Adam missed kicks, just like position players miss catches or fumble footballs... But when it counted most, he made the three he had to.

So, Stop being obtuse when trying to make a point.

Anyway, that's 3... Have a nice day, will talk to you tomorrow if you can restrain yourself from being rude and abusive.

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I didn’t relegate it to nothingness. I give its proper value which is significantly lower than position players.

Position players are on the field contributing every play. Receivers block. Receivers run route that help other players get open.


He missed more than the average kicker. If Brady threw more ints than the average qb would that impact the teams success?
Making routine kicks is what he is supposed to do. It’s not glorious.

Edelman was the NFL leader in receptions and yards in the post season in all 3 of the 2010s championship seasons. Comparing that to 3-4 catches and doing nothing in 30 other plays is the epitome of obtuse.

I’m sorry if words hurt you but I have not been rude or abusing in any way. I wholly believe that saying a kicker must be the most important player on the team because he scores the most points is the most ignorant take you can have. You know that too, you just are too busy peacocking for the crowd to be honest.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yes of course he is behind many players.

It’s because of his contributions. Kickers contributions, even if they were superlative (which they weren’t other than 1 day) aren’t comparable to position players.

The average K from the time he entered the league concerts about 83% his kicks. AV was below that in both the RS and the PS. He was an average K who had one great day. I don’t understand how you would rank that guy more valuable to the franchise than guy who played offense or defense and were among the best players on a dynastic franchise.
With you it really is nostalgia. That is your argument.

Nostalgia is not 3 GW playoff kicks and countless other pressure packed ones.

We are polar-opposite on this debate for the fundemental reason you don't think AV's contributions are high in value.

Moving on.

 

[maust]

Adam Vinatieri who played in 4 decades was an "average K"? Say what?

Also he had 1 miss not 2 in XXXVIII. One was blocked

Obviously, you don't fully understand the Ricky Bobby Rule as it applies to football. If you're not first you're last, a block is still a miss.

 

[TheRainMaker]

How is Wes Welker not in the Pats HOF yet?

He had no less than 1,100 yards in 5 of his 6 seasons in NE, 4 times All Pro and a 5 time Pro Bowler. He took the slot position to an unprecedented level and paved the way for Edelman.

It’s actually quite disrespectful Edelman is in first and not Welker. Pats have majority of their players in that never won a Super Bowl.

 

[sb1]

Nostalgia is not 3 GW playoff kicks and countless other pressure packed ones.

We are polar-opposite on this debate for the fundemental reason you don't think AV's contributions are high in value.

Moving on.

Not sure what "one day" means either.

3 GW playoff kicks also his 5 field goals singlehandedly got the Colts to the AFC Championship game against the Pats. Also had a bunch of OT winning kicks.