Patriots Hall of Fame Finalists - Edelman, Mankins & Vinatieri (Vinatieri vs Edelman)

[maust]

How is Wes Welker not in the Pats HOF yet?

He had no less than 1,100 yards in 5 of his 6 seasons in NE, 4 times All Pro and a 5 time Pro Bowler. He took the slot position to an unprecedented level and paved the way for Edelman.

It’s actually quite disrespectful Edelman is in first and not Welker. Pats have many players that never won a Super Bowl in the HOF.

...but the ring is the thing when you get into that era of players. We may not agree but we're only kidding ourselves if we don't acknowledge it

 

[RobertWeathers]

Not sure what "one day" means either.

3 GW playoff kicks also his 5 field goals singlehandedly got the Colts to the AFC Championship game against the Pats. Also had a bunch of OT winning kicks.

Who knows.

 

[Triumph]

Not ineligible but certainly behind the position players who contributed much more.

Ridiculous

AV made the snowgame FG to tie 13 - 13 and then the game winner FG in OT. Pats win 16 - 13. AV was high scorer with 9 points.

AV made the FG to win SB36. If he missed the game goes into OT with a gassed NE defense.
AV made the 4th Q FG in SB38. Game tied 29 - 29 seconds remaining in regulation. NE 32 - CAR 29

There is at least 2 SB trophies and the Raiders payback win for the 76 game because of AV.

 

[Triumph]

Nostalgia is not 3 GW playoff kicks and countless other pressure packed ones.

We are polar-opposite on this debate for the fundemental reason you don't think AV's contributions are high in value.

Moving on.

AV is not sucking up to Bob Kraft with praise of his franchise.

 

[Ring 6]

Nostalgia is not 3 GW playoff kicks and countless other pressure packed ones.

We are polar-opposite on this debate for the fundemental reason you don't think AV's contributions are high in value.

Moving on.

The football players on the team put him in position to make the game winning kicks, which other than the snow bowl were routine. Are we really calling it hall of fame level to convert 76% of the plays that the average kicker converts 83% of?

His contributions are not higher in value than the football players making plays. Should we put the long snapper and holder in the HOF because they did their job in the clutch and succeeded almost as much as the league average?

Nostalgia is taking the incredible, unexpected achievements of the 2001 team and all the great feelings it produced, and tying them to the kicker blinding objectively about how much value a kicker has.

 

[Ring 6]

Ridiculous

AV made the snowgame FG to tie 13 - 13 and then the game winner FG in OT. Pats win 16 - 13. AV was high scorer with 9 points.

AV made the FG to win SB36. If he missed the game goes into OT with a gassed NE defense.
AV made the 4th Q FG in SB38. Game tied 29 - 29 seconds remaining in regulation. NE 32 - CAR 29

There is at least 2 SB trophies and the Raiders payback win for the 76 game because of AV.

They are not “because of AV”.
The game winning FG was routine. Getting him the shot is what won the game. Among all the other plays made in offense and defense.

In SB 38 he only needed to make that kick because he missed 2 early. “Not 0/3” isn’t exactly a HOF endorsement.

 

[Ring 6]

How is Wes Welker not in the Pats HOF yet?

He had no less than 1,100 yards in 5 of his 6 seasons in NE, 4 times All Pro and a 5 time Pro Bowler. He took the slot position to an unprecedented level and paved the way for Edelman.

It’s actually quite disrespectful Edelman is in first and not Welker. Pats have majority of their players in that never won a Super Bowl.

Welker has no rings. He cost one with a drop too.
Edelman has 3 and was the leading post season receiver on all 3.

I didn’t think there were many in without rings, once we started winning rings.
I think champions should get priority.

 

[Ring 6]

Adam Vinatieri who played in 4 decades was an "average K"? Say what?

Also he had 1 miss not 2 in XXXVIII. One was blocked

As a patriot he was average. He made roughly the league average % of his FGs. A K who makes a higher percentage of his kicks than half the league isn’t getting cut. But facts are facts.
Blocks are misses.

 

[Ring 6]

Not sure what "one day" means either.

3 GW playoff kicks also his 5 field goals singlehandedly got the Colts to the AFC Championship game against the Pats. Also had a bunch of OT winning kicks.

His FGs with the Colts are not part of the Patriot HOF consideration.

Sorry but I give more credit to the offense and defense that put the K in position to attempt a game winning kick that the kicker for converting a 90% shot.

The snow bowl was the best day ever by a kicker. Outside of that, he was out in position to make kicks and converted at an average rate.

 

[Steve102]

Vinatieri is worthy. Next.

All y'all that engaged know the rules. @Pape counted it down well.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Edelman was a warrior vs an all time defense, a catalyst in the greatest comeback in superbowl history along with the catch. Not to mention the MVP vs the Rams2.

People keep bringing up results that pertained to the team winning the superbowls and playoff games directly resulting with AV. I beg to differ. Baltimore down 14x2 game? Nice pass. The catch where he held on after Chancellor cleaned his clock? His sleight of hand td vs Lane in the same game? How many plays did have to contribute to help win championships. And f’n whoa if Edelman and Hightower played in that 2nd superbowl vs Philly. Butlers absence wouldn’t of made a difference.

I loved Adam but in the bigger picture Edelman did more imo. He embodies the definition of the ultimate team mate and underdog.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The football players on the team put him in position to make the game winning kicks, which other than the snow bowl were routine. Are we really calling it hall of fame level to convert 76% of the plays that the average kicker converts 83% of?

JE made bad decisions. JE dropped passes. JE fumbled. JE missed a block. JE didn't move the right way to be in a position to catch passes. Thats why his catch percentage was just OK. JE only had 5 TDs in 19 playoff games. He was nothing more than a chain mover. Guys like Gronk and others did all the scoring. They made it to the SB vs the Eagles just fine without him.

See how stupid that sounds? That is a your AV argument. Marginalize accomplishments just to make a dumbass point.

AV converted points when the offense couldn't put the ball in the EZ. Like the 5FGs vs the Colts in the AFCCG. Like the FG vs TN to go up 17-14 in Q4 in -3 weather. Like when Tom threw a EZ pick vs CAR. If he threw a TD they woudn't have needed AV.

Thats why they call it a team sport. You deliver when your team needs to.

You don't truly think he was part of the winning they did which is absurd.

His contributions are not higher in value than the football players making plays. Should we put the long snapper and holder in the HOF because they did their job in the clutch and succeeded almost as much as the league average?

Nostalgia is taking the incredible, unexpected achievements of the 2001 team and all the great feelings it produced, and tying them to the kicker blinding objectively about how much value a kicker has.

Again you fundamentally don't value kickers.

 

[sb1]

His FGs with the Colts are not part of the Patriot HOF consideration.

You called him an "average K who had 1 great day". He is one of the all time greats at his position and nobody has been more clutch in bigger moments. Average kickers don't play 4 decades in the league.

Sorry but I give more credit to the offense and defense that put the K in position to attempt a game winning kick that the kicker for converting a 90% shot.

Vinatieri is Patriots HOF worthy, easily. He meant so much to the franchise and to the fans, which is the whole point of the Patriots HOF. Again this topic isn't about the NFL HOF, although he will be inducted in there too someday. An average kicker never will.

 

[sb1]

Blocks are misses.

Not always.

 

[signbabybrady]

Welker has no rings. He cost one with a drop too.
Edelman has 3 and was the leading post season receiver on all 3.

I didn’t think there were many in without rings, once we started winning rings.
I think champions should get priority.

Actually there have been several to get in most recently Clayborn and Gray. Isn't Parcells going in this year?

 

[TheRainMaker]

JE made bad decisions. JE dropped passes. JE missed a block. JE didn't move the right way to be in a position to catch passes. Thats why his catch percentage was just OK. JE only had 5 TDs in 19 playoff games. He was nothing more than a chain mover. Guys like Gronk and others did all the scoring. They made it to the SB vs the Eagles just fine without him.

See how stupid that sounds? That is a your AV argument. Marginalize accomplishments just to make a dumbass point.

AV converted points when the offense couldn't put the ball in the EZ. Like the 5FGs vs the Colts in the AFCCG. Like the FG vs TN to go up 17-14 in Q4 in -3 weather. Like when Tom threw a EZ pick vs CAR. If he threw a TD they woudn't have needed AV.

Thats why they call it a team sport. You deliver when your team needs to.

You don't truly think he was part of the winning they did which is absurd.

Agree. We're going down the rabbit hole of who did what and when. We also seem to teleport Edelman in his playoff and Super Bowl games while ignoring how they got there. Same can be said for Adam. No one player can win the game on their own.

With that said, Adam should've already been in with Edelman now in.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Welker has no rings. He cost one with a drop too.

They did not lose because of Welker's drop. They lost because the defense couldn't get off the field and lost the TOP battle 37:22 to 22:55. Tom Brady gave up 2 points with a safety and immediately threw a carless pick right after the Pats poor defense created a turnover (INT). Edit: Giants didn't turn the ball over. I was thinking of another game. The offense was up 17-9 and decided that lead was sufficient and play it safe knowing their defense was a liability. Then the defense had their 2nd annual Super Bowl collapse giving up a game winning drive. The team lost - not Welker.

Edelman has 3 and was the leading post season receiver on all 3.

I didn’t think there were many in without rings, once we started winning rings.
I think champions should get priority.

We're going down the rabbit hole here. Had the defense not done it's job and stood their ground when they very well could've folded like a lawn chair (down 10 vs Seattle and 25 vs Atlanta), Brady, Edelman and the Pats offense doesn't come back and win against Seattle or Atlanta.

 

[Steve102]

With that said, Adam should've already been in with Edelman now in.

Agree, but Kraft has it set up that one one guy per year gets in, and there's going to be a log jam now because of it. With the 5 yr waiting period, Gronk is eligible next year, as is Hightower, DMac in 2027, Slate in 2028, Andrews in 2029. That leaves out guys like Chung, Welker, and Moss, as well as Belichick, who's eligible in 2029 as well, assuming he's done in the NFL. Gronk should win in a popular vote next year over High and AV, DMac is probably the pick over AV in '27. Now you've got High, Welker, AV and Slate still vying for the red jacket in '28, and then add Bill to the mix possibly in 2029. I can see a scenario where Adam is not yet in by 2030.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Agree, but Kraft has it set up that one one guy per year gets in, and there's going to be a log jam now because of it. With the 5 yr waiting period, Gronk is eligible next year, as is Hightower, DMac in 2027, Slate in 2028, Andrews in 2029. That leaves out guys like Chung, Welker, and Moss, as well as Belichick, who's eligible in 2029 as well, assuming he's done in the NFL. Gronk should win in a popular vote next year over High and AV, DMac is probably the pick over AV in '27. Now you've got High, Welker, AV and Slate still vying for the red jacket in '28, and then add Bill to the mix possibly in 2029. I can see a scenario where Adam is not yet in by 2030.

It's a bad policy.

 

[Steve102]

It's a bad policy.

I don't think they envisioned 20 years of greatness in 1991 when they started it. To your point, they should just put the guys in that are worthy. Some years might have 3, other years might have none.