OT: Vick 30 for 30

[Deus Irae]

I thought this was sarcasm at first.

Yeah, many things have gone on throughout human history they were considered bad at the time, and some that weren’t. Putting animals like dogs against each other may have been considered not as bad at certain times in history. Of course, other forms of entertainment those days would be to watch witches boil in water and most people weren’t literate. What does this have to do with “civilized” sensibilities and Michael Vick? We are talking modern society because the standards for civility are different, as they should be with more resources and knowledge. In the 21st centenary, torturing dogs is as close as you can get to a universal consensus from humanity that this act is heinous and criminal.

Ok, I could get further into this, but trying to pry open closed minds, when the point couldn't be more obvious if God, himself, made it, is a waste of time.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I think it was @Actual Pats Fan who questioned why there aren't more of those shows about Patriots players. It's a great question.

I would like to convince Kraft to fund an all-Patriots cable channel.

24 hours a day, packed with documentaries, highlights, history, game replays - and player profiles.

WGN gave national exposure to the Cubs, but the best example I would submit is the Braves:

Why the Braves Are Still America's Team: A Lesson in Brand Integrity

Ted Turner made some critical, astute, shrewd and intelligent decisions as the Braves owner.

Besides Hank Aaron setting the home run record, people in the late 70's thought of Turner as a kook who embarrassed himself taking over as the team manager at one point.

But Ted is not stupid. After letting Bobby Cox go after the '81 season, he hired old player Joe Torre who'd been fired by the Mets. Piping his WTBS Superstation across the country and touting the Braves "America's Team", they started building a big fan base, and won their division in 1982. Torre later skippered the Cards and had his most success with the Yankees, while the Braves languished at the bottom of the standings the rest of the decade.

Cox was brought back to the front office in '86 and started finding smart baseball people, building a top scouting and farm system. When Bobby went back to the dugout as manager, it started the second most impressive run of consistent winning in sports, to the Patriots, of course.

But Turner also made another decision in 1987: He ditched the ridiculous pajamas the team had been attired in for fifteen years and returned to the classic, classy, professional, serious button down baseball uniforms. They looked like champions, and would soon play like them too.

Turner, like Kraft or any owner, never loses sight of the bottom line. The promotional and marketing decisions were as important as the strategic sports ones.

Ironically, Bob Kraft grew up a Boston Braves fan and was devastated when they left to Milwaukee.

So: Braves go from "laughingstock" to top team.

Patriots did the same...or, should be perceived as doing the same.

But they aren't. Culprits include local Boston media, to whom Billy Sullivan is the total start and end to everything for the first three decades, which is akin to believing John Y. Brown is the same to the Celtics over the same span.

James Busch Orthwein was too competent for his intentions. He wanted a team in his hometown St. Louis. He hired Bill Parcells, and the team was headed for success. Everybody knew. But Orthwein of course, never knew or cared anything about New England or the Patriots in his life, so he naturally went along with his friends' and associates' opinions that the Patriots were total garbage. Hence, he had no problem ignoring the team's fans' wishes and made up a humiliating makeover that, considering what it destroyed, stands as the worst in sports history. The team had a few years of poor play due mainly to not having a quarterback, because they let their hometown, hero, Heisman Trophy winning, special leader go off to Canada to set records and win MVP's and titles, and the media - and Orthwein - devoured every loss as evidence of team's fake "forever" futility, just as they had in 1981 - the SINGLE losing season in a stretch of 13 years.

Anyway, respect was NEVER coming after that in 1993. Disdain and resentment followed the team's Super Bowl appearance in 1997 (along with confusion as to exactly what team it was and where is was from); A tsunami of cheating allegations bombarded the team after winning divisional, conference and then title games in 2002; Five years later the league dumped the first of two totally fake national scandals on the team, corroborating every sick, twisted thought every ignorant, stupid moron ever had about the Patriots since 1970; applying punishment befitting a serial killer/rapist for maybe kind of jaywalking at worst.

Anyway, I could off the top of my head come up with over a hundred fascinating, colorful, entertaining and educational documentaries profiling team history and personnel, which is how the franchise should be known and judged. I'm biased, but I know a little bit about other teams. If you leave aside the racism and greed, the older football franchises have some storied, noble history.

The Patriots' history is as impressive and likable as any other team anywhere.

Believing that local media, Ben Dreith and Jack Tatum are somehow our fault is stupid, ignorant, and wrong.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I would like to convince Kraft to fund an all-Patriots cable channel.

24 hours a day, packed with documentaries, highlights, history, game replays - and player profiles.

WGN gave national exposure to the Cubs, but the best example I would submit is the Braves:

Why the Braves Are Still America's Team: A Lesson in Brand Integrity

Ted Turner made some critical, astute, shrewd and intelligent decisions as the Braves owner.

Besides Hank Aaron setting the home run record, people in the late 70's thought of Turner as a kook who embarrassed himself taking over as the team manager at one point.

But Ted is not stupid. After letting Bobby Cox go after the '81 season, he hired old player Joe Torre who'd been fired by the Mets. Piping his WTBS Superstation across the country and touting the Braves "America's Team", they started building a big fan base, and won their division in 1982. Torre later skippered the Cards and had his most success with the Yankees, while the Braves languished at the bottom of the standings the rest of the decade.

Cox was brought back to the front office in '86 and started finding smart baseball people, building a top scouting and farm system. When Bobby went back to the dugout as manager, it started the second most impressive run of consistent winning in sports, to the Patriots, of course.

But Turner also made another decision in 1987: He ditched the ridiculous pajamas the team had been attired in for fifteen years and returned to the classic, classy, professional, serious button down baseball uniforms. They looked like champions, and would soon play like them too.

Turner, like Kraft or any owner, never loses sight of the bottom line. The promotional and marketing decisions were as important as the strategic sports ones.

Ironically, Bob Kraft grew up a Boston Braves fan and was devastated when they left to Milwaukee.

So: Braves go from "laughingstock" to top team.

Patriots did the same...or, should be perceived as doing the same.

But they aren't. Culprits include local Boston media, to whom Billy Sullivan is the total start and end to everything for the first three decades, which is akin to believing John Y. Brown is the same to the Celtics over the same span.

James Busch Orthwein was too competent for his intentions. He wanted a team in his hometown St. Louis. He hired Bill Parcells, and the team was headed for success. Everybody knew. But Orthwein of course, never knew or cared anything about New England or the Patriots in his life, so he naturally went along with his friends' and associates' opinions that the Patriots were total garbage. Hence, he had no problem ignoring the team's fans' wishes and made up a humiliating makeover that, considering what it destroyed, stands as the worst in sports history. The team had a few years of poor play due mainly to not having a quarterback, because they let their hometown, hero, Heisman Trophy winning, special leader go off to Canada to set records and win MVP's and titles, and the media - and Orthwein - devoured every loss as evidence of team's fake "forever" futility, just as they had in 1981 - the SINGLE losing season in a stretch of 13 years.

Anyway, respect was NEVER coming after that in 1993. Disdain and resentment followed the team's Super Bowl appearance in 1997 (along with confusion as to exactly what team it was and where is was from); A tsunami of cheating allegations bombarded the team after winning divisional, conference and then title games in 2002; Five years later the league dumped the first of two totally fake national scandals on the team, corroborating every sick, twisted thought every ignorant, stupid moron ever had about the Patriots since 1970; applying punishment befitting a serial killer/rapist for maybe kind of jaywalking at worst.

Anyway, I could off the top of my head come up with over a hundred fascinating, colorful, entertaining and educational documentaries profiling team history and personnel, which is how the franchise should be known and judged. I'm biased, but I know a little bit about other teams. If you leave aside the racism and greed, the older football franchises have some storied, noble history.

The Patriots' history is as impressive and likable as any other team anywhere.

Believing that local media, Ben Dreith and Jack Tatum are somehow our fault is stupid, ignorant, and wrong.

Why don’t you like the old uniforms though?

 

[1960Pats]

Poor guy...African American athlete drafted by Atlanta Falcons. Never had a chance in that community.

One of our sons was down there for a couple of years and it was great. At the time, around the turn of the century , most of the people we dealt with were black and treated us very well.

 

[203Pat]

One of our sons was down there for a couple of years and it was great. At the time, around the turn of the century , most of the people we dealt with were black and treated us very well.

Having lived in Florida for 9 years I got used to terrible people. I went to Georgia once and couldn't believe how nice everyone was. Had to evacuate for hurricane Irma and was amazed at how nice everyone was both black and white. It was nice to actually experience true southern hospitality.

 

[1960Pats]

In other words, it's modern "civilized" sensibilities that are trying to impose themselves upon all other cultures, and all of history. Man pitting animal against animal is something that's gone on throughout much, if not all, of human history.

I was wondering why I felt that Vick's penalty was severe, even though as a lifetime dog lover I despised the idea that he was pitting those dogs against each other. Maybe it's instinctual on my part.

The same could be said about man vs animal, which isn't appealing to me in any way either. Some of my closest family members are hunters and I never felt comfortable with the thought of setting the site on a rifle, or drawing back an arrow, to take down some poor defenseless animal.

Then I think back to the many dogs that we've had (starting just before the blizzard of '78) and how we'd feel if one of them was scooped up off the street and fed to one of Vick's mistreated killer dogs. Then a different instinct might take over.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I was wondering why I felt that Vick's penalty was severe, even though as a lifetime dog lover I despised the idea that he was pitting those dogs against each other. Maybe it's instinctual on my part.

The same could be said about man vs animal, which isn't appealing to me in any way either. Some of my closest family members are hunters and I never felt comfortable with the thought of setting the site on a rifle, or drawing back an arrow, to take down some poor defenseless animal.

Then I think back to the many dogs that we've had (starting just before the blizzard of '78) and how we'd feel if one of them was scooped up off the street and fed to one of Vick's mistreated killer dogs. Then a different instinct might take over.

Getting into the topic makes me queasy, but dogs are not violent by nature. They are trusting and loyal. So the idea of weaponizing and killing them, for entertainment, is some sick stuff. I don’t think he served a long enough sentence, personally.

 

[1960Pats]

Having lived in Florida for 9 years I got used to terrible people. I went to Georgia once and couldn't believe how nice everyone was. Had to evacuate for hurricane Irma and was amazed at how nice everyone was both black and white. It was nice to actually experience true southern hospitality.

Southern hospitality exists.

 

[Deus Irae]

I was wondering why I felt that Vick's penalty was severe, even though as a lifetime dog lover I despised the idea that he was pitting those dogs against each other. Maybe it's instinctual on my part.

The same could be said about man vs animal, which isn't appealing to me in any way either. Some of my closest family members are hunters and I never felt comfortable with the thought of setting the site on a rifle, or drawing back an arrow, to take down some poor defenseless animal.

Then I think back to the many dogs that we've had (starting just before the blizzard of '78) and how we'd feel if one of them was scooped up off the street and fed to one of Vick's mistreated killer dogs. Then a different instinct might take over.

I hear you. With the rise of western style cities, and the increased use of animals as pets instead of work animals, we're seeing a shift in how people view things. Even with food animals, people can live their entire lives and never see how they end up with steaks and chicken at the grocery store. So we've got a huge number of ignorant people with modern sensibilities and sensitivities, and they end up being the ones driving these animal issues.

And I'm not saying that I think they're wrong (or right), either specifically or generally. I'm just noting that this is at least part of why we're getting these changes.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Why don’t you like the old uniforms though?

The irony is that Kraft's excuse is, according to those I've spoken with, the money.

His net worth would be a $billion higher than it is now if he'd restored our real helmets & jerseys. It's the first thing people see when they think about a team.

Tomorrow, two teams will play in the biggest annual game in our country, wearing the same uniforms their respective fans saw and rooted for when the Super Bowl was established, even after both franchises went through many years of futility. They preserve their identity.

 

[oldrover]

Yeah... I’m not touching this

https://imgflip.com/gif-maker

...just helping this gain speed toward the cliff...

 

[IcyPatriot]

You guys keep lighting @fnordcircle 's bell ...
He's going to think he's gone from popular to celebrity.

 

[Triumph]

Everything is racialist.

Racialism made Vick abuse those dogs.

 

[Clonamery]

You guys keep lighting @fnordcircle 's bell ...
He's going to think he's gone from popular to celebrity.

He's a pigment of our imagination.

 

[venecol]

I like Michael Vick. I also like dogs. These two statements are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Betterthanmost]

He has paid his dues, he is human after all. The one who has not sinned in their life should cast the first stone. His sin was despicable, not going to rationalized it, but I can also understand how he found himself with that crowd of people and how hard it is to extricate yourself from them if you grew up in such a culture. There are many of such activities going on in Houston South side and other places in the South.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

He has paid his dues, he is human after all. The one who has not sinned in their life should cast the first stone. His sin was despicable, not going to rationalized it, but I can also understand how he found himself with that crowd of people and how hard it is to extricate yourself from them if you grew up in such a culture. There are many of such activities going on in Houston South side and other places in the South.

He served 21 months. I don’t agree that he paid his dues for this. That’s bs about all of us sinning/casting the first stone re: years of torturing and murdering dogs.

Fck that. We have the responsibility as humans to judge these actions and apply an appropriate punishment.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

He served 21 months. I don’t agree that he paid his dues for this. That’s bs about all of us sinning/casting the first stone re: years of torturing and murdering dogs.

Fck that. We have the responsibility as humans to judge these actions and apply an appropriate punishment.

I agree, I haven't seen appropriate contrition from Vick.

Of course, I never expect to see it from any white person for the white supremacy that has tortured and murdered millions just since abolition.

 

[TB_Helmet]

He served 21 months. I don’t agree that he paid his dues for this. That’s bs about all of us sinning/casting the first stone re: years of torturing and murdering dogs.

Fck that. We have the responsibility as humans to judge these actions and apply an appropriate punishment.

Well said! Now how many chicken wings are you eating this afternoon?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Well said! Now how many chicken wings are you eating this afternoon?

My dog loves those. I’ll probably get him a few.